I'm fairly sure joe security guard is more interested in watching his trids than he is constantly actively sweeping his eyes around the room looking for things (Since 9999 times out of 10000 there will be nothing there) so if anything he should get a -2 for being distracted, not a +3 for actively looking.

As for the telematics infrastructure... having that in every facility is one of those 'It makes sense but it makes shadowrunning virtually impossible' for the very reason you stated, it can spot -any- node in a few seconds, which means no team of runners could enter the facility without being detected before they all made it in the front door unless they completely did away with their commlinks communication ability, which means that the hacker couldn't operate at all, and everyone else couldn't talk to each other, and some people would even have trouble using things like their smartguns.

Realistically there is enough security stuff out there that it would be quite easy to make a building impossible to get into covertly. A handful of cameras with regular, inferred, UV, and ultrasound would be basically impossible to get past without hacking, and if the telemantics infrastructure is running, a hacker can't operate without being detected, thus the runners couldn't get past even a very basic line of security without being detected. I know that example isn't complete, but it shows how very quickly defenses are made exceedingly difficult to get past with very little effort on the corps part, and thus all corps should have it, but if they did, shadowrunners wouldn't really be able to operate.

While TI is fast it is orders of magnitude slower than a good hacker.

It just becomes the first order of business in any successful penetration, detect and spoof the nodes that the TI is running on.

I'd probably run it first time and then abstract it thereafter assuming there wasn't an increase in the security level at any point.

It's just another tool in your arsenal when it comes to placing road-blocks in front of injudicious runners.

Meh, Runners that are dumb enough to try to actively link with each other deserve to be detected, things like tacnets, ect are meant to be used after they are detected.

And I even play Pink Mohawk... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Motion detection is one thing that computers can do very well, and they don't get bored.

That's certainly one opinion.

I prefer to make as much effort to disguise 'wi-fi' infiltration as physical infiltration.

Running completely radio silent is next to impossible and the cost in terms of lost utility is huge.

True, but there are bound to be one or two that take their jobs seriously, and there'll be some walking perimeters and such. These guys will be looking for odd things, including a spy drone that are the size of a rhino beetle and making all sorts of noise with its vector thrust props (let alone six of them).

True, running "radio silent" is hard, but given the state of technology there isn't really any much choice in the matter, especially if you are going to try to be on the "Ice-Cold-Pro" side of things.

Which gets them a Perception Test with neither Penalties nor Boni: They are looking for many things, not something in particular. Just like PCs don't get +3 for declaring "I'm looking for anything dangerous".

That would be the GMs call, but I would say that in many situations, a +2 for the object standing out would be applicable. Once you hear the buzzing of vector thrust props, the sec guard may know what to look for, the +3 may apply then. But even without any modifiers, someone is bound to get three successes eventually.

A sec guard in 2071 would probably be trained to look out for something as simple as a spy drone. This is a 2k technology that is easy to use and probably by that time the most basic trick in the book to use for infiltrators. I can imagine their training to consist of recognizing the various types of fly spys and how they sound.

Really how big is the interior of the building he is sending these half dozen drones into. The size of most of the offices I've been into is not that big. People would notice if there is a bee flying around in there, let alone a machine much bigger than a bee, and buzzing much loader. I have a small indoor RC helicopter and that thing makes a lot of noise. Fly spys probably are not as noisy but they still use props. And they may be the size of large insects but they don't look like one.

I don't know exactly how these things are being used in Legs game, the judicious use of one or two may be effective, but it sounds to me like the player is sending them out like a swarm of bees in any and all situations.

Not to be that guy, but just what sort of training does that entail?

Insert powerpoint slide show, or the 2072 equivalent on holo projector. Instructor: "These are common types of surveillance drones that people use to collect information." <play audio clip> "This is what they sound like. If you notice one," <insert company policy here> "or report to the supervisor of the watch, normally your security rigger. He will tell you whether it's his or not."

Hmmm, I'm off to get a steak dinner but when I get back I'll have some thoughts, I hope, formed up to post!

Shoot they could have a large collection of these small surveillance drones fly them around land them on things etc. Let the sec guards have first hand experience with them.

Addressing Leg's problem directly, I think it would be useful to establish the actual size of these Fly-Spys. The description says large insect, to me that means at least the size of a dragon fly, or a rhino beetle

It could be circular housing the blades inside its body, or it may have a couple blades on a wing with the body housing its surveillance equipment.

With that in mind you can challenge your player to keep these things from being detected. I understand the need to not automatically fail any attempt by your players as well as the need to make things not so simple. If the player is just sending a bunch of drones in to do surveillance under the control of its own pilots, I would have a few encounters where the drones are forced to make a couple pilot+response test to see if it made the right decisions as well as a few perception tests by sec guards or the random passer by.

If he is rigging, you can make a few encounters where he has to succeed in some infiltration+response tests.

I work in Law Enforcement, and I am required to attend a variety of in service training annually. Most of the training I receive is a result of policy driven by one of two things: litigation, and money.

While I can certainly see training in use of force, pressure point control tactics, weapons training, even a variety of other skill sets-CPR, First Aid, restraint use, etc...Obviously some adjustments to be made for 207x. But how does one train the unaided eye to spot a drone the size of a fly?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's impossible, but rather I am just curious how it would be implemented.

Personally I figure that the drones are somewhat larger than "a fly", a large dragonfly maybe...

I'm in the army. Back in the day (when I was in a different, and lamer, job) I had a lot of training on how to identify the year, make, and model of, say, Russian BMP from overhead imagery, or photos, or walking up to them. The way you train people is to show them drones, hide them places, and have them look for them. Barring that (budget, time), decks of cards, memorization exercises. Not hard.

The actual 'hide and go seek game', played occasionally between the security rigger and the security guards, actually seems like something they'd do. Plus, can you imagine the amount of pranks bored security riggers and guards would play on each other?

In fact, I still have my deck of 'russian ground vehicle' cards somewhere.

Of course if the security rigger has a couple of these things flying around anyway, it is likely that an extra one or two from an enemy would go unnoticed by the guards. Even the rigger likely wouldn't notice because he is too busy with his soaps, and his drones aren't smart enough to realize that fly2 is supposed to be in the other end of the building.

Still, I agree with the general concensous that you should play up their noticability. Just because they have the name fly, doesn't mean they are fly sized. I don't know about a rhino beetle, but at the very least a large bee, and those things get noticed -quick-.

Oh, and finally, yeah, there are -tons- of ways to train people to spot things (Snipers do it all the time, kinda important to notice an enemy sniper and such)

I sympathies with Legs, I had a similar predicament in my game. I found it useful to discuss the size of a "mini" drone. We looked at micro drones first which range in size from the S-B microskimmer which is described as smaller than a can lid. I picture this to mean about the size of a beer cap maybe slightly smaller. This makes it larger than a large bee.

However the MK centipede is "less than a foot long" and is still a "micro" drone.

It was the Dragonfly which helped us the most. They are the same size as a real dragonfly, which is pretty big, much bigger than a bumble bee which is the largest bee I know of.

Another thing that helped us was the Concealability Table. This lists Mini drones as concealable as a light pistol, microgrenade, and flashpack. While the Micro drone is comparable to RFID tags, bugs, slap patches, or micro-electronics.

That is why we settled on between a dragon fly and a rhino beetle. After all the Dragonfly is meant to follow the micro and mini drones into "nooks and crannies."

After we all got this image into our minds, it was much easier to understand that these things cannot be mistaken for a house fly or a small moth. If a dragonfly was flying around inside your house, you'd definitely see it.

Yeah, that description for a micro drone always kinda got to me, especially because it is depicted as being more or less a square too. Seems more like it would fall under the 'small' category instead of the 'micro'

Hmm, I thought the fly was a micro drone and not a mini for some reason. So yeah, great from scouting from the sky, not so good for going in the building (Until you can afford good cover-ops autosoft and a chameleon coating)

Another simple method to detect Fly-Spy is using the "Non-Linear Junction Detector" Sensor in Arsenal. You roll sensor rating x 2 and only requires 2 hits to detect a Fly-Spy. At which point you can simply have a Dragonfly eat it.

Have him while going through hallway of the building or some restricted area have this as an active scanner for the passage. Only properly RFID tagged folks can pass without alerting security.

I think there are alot of good points. I think that the flies should be allowed to go around and look at the building, but they will not see everything. They will not see Sam the night guard. They will not see the motion sensors in all the rooms. They will not be able to go through locked doors. You also will have to keep suspense up by rolling stealth rolls a failed stealth roll and the last thing seen may be a hand slamming on the bug or a shoe.

-Chrysalis

Another point which should be made. I was discussing with my GM about doing modification of drones. I want to take a dragonfly add chameleon coating and signature reduction. If the numbers go below -6 it is equivalent to invisible. Common sense may dictate that a dragonfly buzzing over my desk will be noticed, but in 2070 the dragonfly can be coated in ruthenium polymer. While a dragonfly makes some noise buzzing around, these can have their sound dampened (I am assuming this is what sig reduction does) to nearly nothing. The average sec guard will not have any dice to roll to detect something with a sig of -6, not to even mention getting 3 hits. Look at the signature values of these devices. If you as GM think they are ridiculous, feel free to modify them to suit.