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Legs
I need help figuring out how to stop my rigger from sending in a bunch of flybots to survey a location. I don't want to penalize him, really...since he's just doing a thorough job and should be rewarded for that...but it makes it impossible to surprise anyone in the group.

I'm running a very low level campaign, so it doesnt make sense that every adversary would have a rigger on hand to counter the PC rigger's drones.
McCummhail
How big are these flybots?
Are they normal size or microdrones?

Legs
I meant FLY-SPY.

They're the size of a large insect.
Penta
Here's a thought: Anything that small has a very small field of view and possibly limited range.

To do thorough recon, you have to send in multiple. If not dozens. Possibly hundreds.

One insect goes unnoticed. A few dozen, less so. A few hundred, hell no.

Especially when they don't fly naturally, nor make natural noises. Or when they fly in suspicious patterns.
Karoline
The biggest things to keep in mind is that they can only see what is outside the building they are spying on, and they can only see things that aren't concealed. They would for example know that there is a fence around the compound, but not that it is electrified. And they would also likely not notice any sort of tripwires, hidden turrets, or of course anything at all about the defenses inside the building.

Edit: And if he is actually sending them into the building, they're likely to be noticed. If not as drones, then as insects, and if it is a low level game, having a drone or two destroyed by the guard with a newspaper should be fair exchange for intel.

Edit2: Insects automatically spawn newspapers around them, even in the SR universe where newspapers basically don't exist.
Legs
My main problem is he gets about a half dozen flybots INTO the places the PCs are going into, and he scopes the whole place out, finding out where people are stationed, any visible security, etc...

Like I said, I think this is great that he's so thorough and professional, but it really puts a damper on some of my plans.
McCummhail
Are you trying to surprise them, but not discourage the use of extensive drone scouting?
The occasional shotgun can be discouraging to fly-spy drone reliance.

Indoor environments can be used as a barrier for the drones
as not every location is open to bugs.

Careful use of wifi nullification / wifi barriers can inhibit drone scouting as well.
Paul
Karoline makes a good point, in my humble opinion. I'm not sure what sort of sensors these things pack offhand, but while they may get the lay of the land unless things are being actively used it may be difficult to scope things out. (In example a hidden gun turret that pops up will not be immediately visible.)

Beyond that, here's a question for anyone: Why wouldn't a Corporation mess with unknown signals on their turf, especially in secure areas? Is that a possibility?
Orcus Blackweather
I think it would be wrong to arbitrarily decide that nothing the players can do will allow them to circumvent security. The message this sends is why bother. If nothing I do matters, I might as well just go in shooting every time. If one player is monopolizing time, and this is becoming an issue, then you can take steps to share the time more fairly.

That being said:
There are a number of standard defenses that corps take against intrusion. Wi-fi defeating wallpaper being the first. Drones will either be controlled or autonomous. If they cannot communicate back to the rigger, then they will have to be self-directing. This will limit the available intelligence. There are ways of circumventing the anti-wifi measures, but they start to get expensive. Another defense would be sealed rooms and mantraps. Prior to entering a high security area every employee must enter a mantrap that includes advanced sensors. Perhaps if the area is sufficiently sensitive it would include degaussing to kill RFID and drones. Even these sort of things can be defeated, but now we are talking serious money. When a team of drones with signature reduction and advanced sensors are detected, the rigger stands to lose a lot. The more risky things get, the greater the monetary risk the rigger faces. If a run is paying 20k nuyen.gif for the team, and the rigger is risking more than 20k himself, he will be more circumspect in the use of his drones, and again less intelligence will be developed. My personal opinion though, is that if you think out a bunch of protective measures, and the rigger can bypass him, he should be rewarded with the information he was after, even if that means a little less suspense.

One last point, magical defenses are not seen by a drone, and defenses that fail to detect a signature -4 drone may still detect a full size metahuman (or an entire group of them). The drone may not detect a number of countermeasures that are conveniently hidden in the walls for aesthetic reasons. Once the party trips the weight sensor in the uber-secret hallway, the entire layout of thebuilding will change.
DireRadiant
Stealth checks. Fly spies don't have enormous pools for sensor tests. So an opposed test can have a significant affect on the fly spy ability to notice things. 4-6 dice pool stealth versus the drones 6-9 dice sensor + perception is going to allow for the drone to miss seeing something enough times to allow for the occasional surprise to happen.

Stealth and cover could be used to "hide" interior features.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Karoline @ Sep 29 2009, 04:59 PM) *
The biggest things to keep in mind is that they can only see what is outside the building they are spying on, and they can only see things that aren't concealed. They would for example know that there is a fence around the compound, but not that it is electrified. And they would also likely not notice any sort of tripwires, hidden turrets, or of course anything at all about the defenses inside the building.

That depends entirly on the Sensor Package and Autosofts.
kzt
Any corp will be on the lookout for people trying to get drones into their buildings. There really are very few places were the CEO would be happy knowing that intruders can listen to everything anyone says and watch everything that anyone can do.
Pendaric
anti micro drone hunter the dragon fly, dead zones and jammers/anti wifi paint.
Paul
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Sep 29 2009, 01:02 PM) *
That depends entirly on the Sensor Package and Autosofts.


In which case I'd say the race to fool these sensors and autosofts is on! I'd assume counter measures must exist, after these are multitrillion dollar extra-national entities. I agree heartily with Orcus Blackweather (Something I seem to do a lot of!) that it's not a good thing to prohibit players from doing things, but there's nothing wrong with playing these types of entities as the ruthless bastards they can be!

After all how would you protect your secret assets? Now give yourself the resources of a super rich, super powerful country.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Paul @ Sep 29 2009, 08:55 PM) *
In which case I'd say the race to fool these sensors and autosofts is on! I'd assume counter measures must exist, after these are multitrillion dollar extra-national entities.

..that are broken down in miniscule compartents, where the prime objective is to be as cheap as possible - and the person responsible for the compartment can kiss his career goodbye both for either failing to be secure or cheap... because the person he reports to doesn't give a shit as he too needs to report his budget and security to someone else...

Which quickly evolves to: "Let's do the basics, hope nothing too bad happens and hush up the rest before someone notices."
Paul
Absolutely it can be like that. It can also play out differently. I'd say it depends on how you, as a Game Master need it to play. I don't make every run a whirlwind nightmare of deceit and deception, but they're not all cake walks either.
Ravor
Meh, I figure that if the corps are smart enough to take some simple and effective countermeasures to prevent spirits from being the end-all of recon then they are also smart enough to do the same for drones, espically when it's easier to counter a swarm of drones.

Traul
QUOTE (Pendaric @ Sep 29 2009, 08:39 PM) *
anti micro drone hunter the dragon fly, dead zones and jammers/anti wifi paint.

I love the idea of dragonflies patrolling the area 24/24 grinbig.gif Feels like the blood immune system.

As for the dead zone, except in ultra high security areas, it would require some extra network equipment to allow authorized communication with the outside. An access nexus as a gateway that can emit both outside and inside and filters traffic should do. So the building would not be completely secure, but you would have to hack the nexus first (which might be beefed up) to either spoof an account or shut down his firewall, and if it recovers while your drones are in you might lose them.
rob
QUOTE (Traul @ Sep 29 2009, 04:11 PM) *
As for the dead zone, except in ultra high security areas, it would require some extra network equipment to allow authorized communication with the outside. An access nexus as a gateway that can emit both outside and inside and only lets authorized traffic through. So the building would not be completely secure, but you would have to hack the nexus first (which might be beefed up), and it can discover your drones and shut the communication at any time.


It's even fair to say that you don't have to hack the nexus, it will let you on if you ask it (with a very basic account do-nothing account), but you'll then be on the network. If the security server is running the basic telematics software package from unwired, a nifty little ARO will pop up on all the guard's vision showing where all these brand new guest-account flyspies are.

I imagine most low-to-medium security facilities will have their own wifi network, which doesn't connect out but makes it easier for people to work, and a monitored "convenience" unsecured network so people can check on other things. As long as the same device doesn't connect to both, they'll be happy. So once your boy's flyspies get in the building (which has an incentive to use wireless wallpaper, etc, to contain their own networks), they'll be going through the buildling's servers for access, and the builidng will know they are there.

He can get around this, with retrans units and things, but that makes him a more visible. Anyway, it wouldn't be fun if he didn't have some way to make it work. If he beefs up the signal on the flyspies, well, for one, that's a lot of money. Personally, I houserule that if you're using high signal on tiny things, it drains their operating time a lot. But that's up to yall.
toturi
Take a good look at your office. Real good look. Where are your power conduits, your environmental control/air conditioning? Sure, there's wallpaper, but do you wall paper your ceilings? Or your floors? How about your toilets? Are the sanitary pipes secured? These can serve as plausible explanations as to how the rigger is penetrating your security. A point that stands out for building security is that you can't afford to secure everything. If you want to make your life easier, you could consider asking the rigger to roll a Security-type Knowledge skill check. If he succeeds, he is able to bypass the countermeasures.
rob
Toturi: I ain't talking about the drones getting in - I'm sure legs got that under as much control as he chooses. Problem is the wireless signals getting out, for the intelligence and the context-driven control of the drones. Radios, esp. low power ones, suck at getting through enough stuff, going through a floor/ceiling/power conduit/AC duct etc. is gonna be the problem. My cell phone doesn't get out of my office, and a drone the size of a large insect won't have a much bigger radio.

The drones will have a control range of 40m to 100m (signal 1 or 2) maximum with clear LOS, unless they hit up the matrix. If they DO hit the matrix, the building knows where they are. If they don't, then the rigger has to be very smart about telling their dog brains what to do, and he won't know what's happening until one of the drones comes out and sends all the info it collected.

If the rigger character figures this will be a problem and plans for it, then for all means it should work. There's ways to get around this (retrans units, a drone running a myomeric cable to a satellite uplink, etc.), but it requires extra planning and some more detailed reconnaissance of the target. Which makes for a fun game.

But if the same trick (send the flyspies in, collect the info, win) works all the time, then the game gets boring, which sounds like Leg's concern.
The Monk
If he is sending that many fly-spys into a building, chances are some of them will be detected. If the drones are going in hoping that its size will conceal it then perceivers need three successes to detect it. There are also a lot of situational modifiers that may apply to the perceivers such as:

A security guard would probably be trained to look out for such things, after all this technology is not exactly a secret. He would get the actively looking: +3

A big bug would stand out in many places. If there is a large dragon fly flying around inside your house you'd probably see it if not hear it: +2

If its using a covertOps autosoft then its an opposed test.
Traul
The good thing about patrolling dragonflies is that they do not rely on visual input alone. They can also detect WI-FI emitters to make the difference between a real bug and a drone.

But they'd better kill bugs too for sanitation.
DuctShuiTengu
Take a wireless device with decent ratings. Stick an agent with a scan program in it. Have it continuously scanning for hidden nodes (and automatically detecting active and passive ones) and send warnings to security if it finds something that shouldn't be there. (Wifi signal scanners from the BBB seem like they'd work, but as written are actually only usable for intercepting and eavesdropping rather than detecting). Toss a few of these into the secure areas of your corporate facilities.
crizh
This would be called Telematics Infrastructure and is detailed in Unwired (as rob already mentioned).

No secure facility should be without it, it is extremely cheap and will usually take between 15 and 30 seconds to spot even Hidden nodes with Non-standard wireless.

I'd be cautious about blanketing facilities in wi-fi inhibiting wallpaper, that shit is expensive and Faraday Cages are doubly so.
Karoline
QUOTE (The Monk @ Sep 30 2009, 01:42 AM) *
A security guard would probably be trained to look out for such things, after all this technology is not exactly a secret. He would get the actively looking: +3


I'm fairly sure joe security guard is more interested in watching his trids than he is constantly actively sweeping his eyes around the room looking for things (Since 9999 times out of 10000 there will be nothing there) so if anything he should get a -2 for being distracted, not a +3 for actively looking.

As for the telematics infrastructure... having that in every facility is one of those 'It makes sense but it makes shadowrunning virtually impossible' for the very reason you stated, it can spot -any- node in a few seconds, which means no team of runners could enter the facility without being detected before they all made it in the front door unless they completely did away with their commlinks communication ability, which means that the hacker couldn't operate at all, and everyone else couldn't talk to each other, and some people would even have trouble using things like their smartguns.

Realistically there is enough security stuff out there that it would be quite easy to make a building impossible to get into covertly. A handful of cameras with regular, inferred, UV, and ultrasound would be basically impossible to get past without hacking, and if the telemantics infrastructure is running, a hacker can't operate without being detected, thus the runners couldn't get past even a very basic line of security without being detected. I know that example isn't complete, but it shows how very quickly defenses are made exceedingly difficult to get past with very little effort on the corps part, and thus all corps should have it, but if they did, shadowrunners wouldn't really be able to operate.
crizh
While TI is fast it is orders of magnitude slower than a good hacker.

It just becomes the first order of business in any successful penetration, detect and spoof the nodes that the TI is running on.

I'd probably run it first time and then abstract it thereafter assuming there wasn't an increase in the security level at any point.

It's just another tool in your arsenal when it comes to placing road-blocks in front of injudicious runners.
Ravor
Meh, Runners that are dumb enough to try to actively link with each other deserve to be detected, things like tacnets, ect are meant to be used after they are detected.

And I even play Pink Mohawk... cyber.gif
kzt
QUOTE (Karoline @ Sep 30 2009, 06:50 AM) *
I'm fairly sure joe security guard is more interested in watching his trids than he is constantly actively sweeping his eyes around the room looking for things (Since 9999 times out of 10000 there will be nothing there) so if anything he should get a -2 for being distracted, not a +3 for actively looking.

Motion detection is one thing that computers can do very well, and they don't get bored.
crizh
QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 30 2009, 05:31 PM) *
Meh, Runners that are dumb enough to try to actively link with each other deserve to be detected, things like tacnets, ect are meant to be used after they are detected.

And I even play Pink Mohawk... cyber.gif


That's certainly one opinion.

I prefer to make as much effort to disguise 'wi-fi' infiltration as physical infiltration.

Running completely radio silent is next to impossible and the cost in terms of lost utility is huge.
The Monk
QUOTE (Karoline @ Sep 30 2009, 08:50 AM) *
I'm fairly sure joe security guard is more interested in watching his trids than he is constantly actively sweeping his eyes around the room looking for things (Since 9999 times out of 10000 there will be nothing there) so if anything he should get a -2 for being distracted, not a +3 for actively looking.

True, but there are bound to be one or two that take their jobs seriously, and there'll be some walking perimeters and such. These guys will be looking for odd things, including a spy drone that are the size of a rhino beetle and making all sorts of noise with its vector thrust props (let alone six of them).
Ravor
True, running "radio silent" is hard, but given the state of technology there isn't really any much choice in the matter, especially if you are going to try to be on the "Ice-Cold-Pro" side of things.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (The Monk @ Sep 30 2009, 08:15 PM) *
True, but there are bound to be one or two that take their jobs seriously, and there'll be some walking perimeters and such. These guys will be looking for odd things, including a spy drone that are the size of a rhino beetle and making all sorts of noise with its vector thrust props (let alone six of them).

Which gets them a Perception Test with neither Penalties nor Boni: They are looking for many things, not something in particular. Just like PCs don't get +3 for declaring "I'm looking for anything dangerous".
The Monk
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Oct 1 2009, 01:07 PM) *
Which gets them a Perception Test with neither Penalties nor Boni: They are looking for many things, not something in particular. Just like PCs don't get +3 for declaring "I'm looking for anything dangerous".

That would be the GMs call, but I would say that in many situations, a +2 for the object standing out would be applicable. Once you hear the buzzing of vector thrust props, the sec guard may know what to look for, the +3 may apply then. But even without any modifiers, someone is bound to get three successes eventually.

A sec guard in 2071 would probably be trained to look out for something as simple as a spy drone. This is a 2k technology that is easy to use and probably by that time the most basic trick in the book to use for infiltrators. I can imagine their training to consist of recognizing the various types of fly spys and how they sound.

Really how big is the interior of the building he is sending these half dozen drones into. The size of most of the offices I've been into is not that big. People would notice if there is a bee flying around in there, let alone a machine much bigger than a bee, and buzzing much loader. I have a small indoor RC helicopter and that thing makes a lot of noise. Fly spys probably are not as noisy but they still use props. And they may be the size of large insects but they don't look like one.

I don't know exactly how these things are being used in Legs game, the judicious use of one or two may be effective, but it sounds to me like the player is sending them out like a swarm of bees in any and all situations.
Paul
QUOTE (The Monk @ Oct 1 2009, 01:14 PM) *
A sec guard in 2071 would probably be trained to look out for something as simple as a spy drone.


Not to be that guy, but just what sort of training does that entail?
rob
QUOTE (Paul @ Oct 1 2009, 03:19 PM) *
Not to be that guy, but just what sort of training does that entail?


Insert powerpoint slide show, or the 2072 equivalent on holo projector. Instructor: "These are common types of surveillance drones that people use to collect information." <play audio clip> "This is what they sound like. If you notice one," <insert company policy here> "or report to the supervisor of the watch, normally your security rigger. He will tell you whether it's his or not."
Paul
Hmmm, I'm off to get a steak dinner but when I get back I'll have some thoughts, I hope, formed up to post!
The Monk
Shoot they could have a large collection of these small surveillance drones fly them around land them on things etc. Let the sec guards have first hand experience with them.

Addressing Leg's problem directly, I think it would be useful to establish the actual size of these Fly-Spys. The description says large insect, to me that means at least the size of a dragon fly, or a rhino beetle

It could be circular housing the blades inside its body, or it may have a couple blades on a wing with the body housing its surveillance equipment.

With that in mind you can challenge your player to keep these things from being detected. I understand the need to not automatically fail any attempt by your players as well as the need to make things not so simple. If the player is just sending a bunch of drones in to do surveillance under the control of its own pilots, I would have a few encounters where the drones are forced to make a couple pilot+response test to see if it made the right decisions as well as a few perception tests by sec guards or the random passer by.

If he is rigging, you can make a few encounters where he has to succeed in some infiltration+response tests.

Paul
I work in Law Enforcement, and I am required to attend a variety of in service training annually. Most of the training I receive is a result of policy driven by one of two things: litigation, and money.

While I can certainly see training in use of force, pressure point control tactics, weapons training, even a variety of other skill sets-CPR, First Aid, restraint use, etc...Obviously some adjustments to be made for 207x. But how does one train the unaided eye to spot a drone the size of a fly?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's impossible, but rather I am just curious how it would be implemented.
Ravor
Personally I figure that the drones are somewhat larger than "a fly", a large dragonfly maybe...
rob
I'm in the army. Back in the day (when I was in a different, and lamer, job) I had a lot of training on how to identify the year, make, and model of, say, Russian BMP from overhead imagery, or photos, or walking up to them. The way you train people is to show them drones, hide them places, and have them look for them. Barring that (budget, time), decks of cards, memorization exercises. Not hard.

The actual 'hide and go seek game', played occasionally between the security rigger and the security guards, actually seems like something they'd do. Plus, can you imagine the amount of pranks bored security riggers and guards would play on each other?

In fact, I still have my deck of 'russian ground vehicle' cards somewhere.
Karoline
Of course if the security rigger has a couple of these things flying around anyway, it is likely that an extra one or two from an enemy would go unnoticed by the guards. Even the rigger likely wouldn't notice because he is too busy with his soaps, and his drones aren't smart enough to realize that fly2 is supposed to be in the other end of the building.

Still, I agree with the general concensous that you should play up their noticability. Just because they have the name fly, doesn't mean they are fly sized. I don't know about a rhino beetle, but at the very least a large bee, and those things get noticed -quick-.

Oh, and finally, yeah, there are -tons- of ways to train people to spot things (Snipers do it all the time, kinda important to notice an enemy sniper and such)
The Monk
QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 1 2009, 07:45 PM) *
I don't know about a rhino beetle, but at the very least a large bee, and those things get noticed -quick-.


I sympathies with Legs, I had a similar predicament in my game. I found it useful to discuss the size of a "mini" drone. We looked at micro drones first which range in size from the S-B microskimmer which is described as smaller than a can lid. I picture this to mean about the size of a beer cap maybe slightly smaller. This makes it larger than a large bee.

However the MK centipede is "less than a foot long" and is still a "micro" drone.

It was the Dragonfly which helped us the most. They are the same size as a real dragonfly, which is pretty big, much bigger than a bumble bee which is the largest bee I know of.

Another thing that helped us was the Concealability Table. This lists Mini drones as concealable as a light pistol, microgrenade, and flashpack. While the Micro drone is comparable to RFID tags, bugs, slap patches, or micro-electronics.

That is why we settled on between a dragon fly and a rhino beetle. After all the Dragonfly is meant to follow the micro and mini drones into "nooks and crannies."

After we all got this image into our minds, it was much easier to understand that these things cannot be mistaken for a house fly or a small moth. If a dragonfly was flying around inside your house, you'd definitely see it.
Karoline
QUOTE (The Monk @ Oct 1 2009, 10:00 PM) *
However the MK centipede is "less than a foot long" and is still a "micro" drone.


Yeah, that description for a micro drone always kinda got to me, especially because it is depicted as being more or less a square too. Seems more like it would fall under the 'small' category instead of the 'micro'

Hmm, I thought the fly was a micro drone and not a mini for some reason. So yeah, great from scouting from the sky, not so good for going in the building (Until you can afford good cover-ops autosoft and a chameleon coating)
Night Jackal
Another simple method to detect Fly-Spy is using the "Non-Linear Junction Detector" Sensor in Arsenal. You roll sensor rating x 2 and only requires 2 hits to detect a Fly-Spy. At which point you can simply have a Dragonfly eat it.

Have him while going through hallway of the building or some restricted area have this as an active scanner for the passage. Only properly RFID tagged folks can pass without alerting security.
Chrysalis
QUOTE (Legs @ Sep 29 2009, 04:23 PM) *
I need help figuring out how to stop my rigger from sending in a bunch of flybots to survey a location. I don't want to penalize him, really...since he's just doing a thorough job and should be rewarded for that...but it makes it impossible to surprise anyone in the group.

I'm running a very low level campaign, so it doesnt make sense that every adversary would have a rigger on hand to counter the PC rigger's drones.



I think there are alot of good points. I think that the flies should be allowed to go around and look at the building, but they will not see everything. They will not see Sam the night guard. They will not see the motion sensors in all the rooms. They will not be able to go through locked doors. You also will have to keep suspense up by rolling stealth rolls a failed stealth roll and the last thing seen may be a hand slamming on the bug or a shoe.

-Chrysalis
Orcus Blackweather
Another point which should be made. I was discussing with my GM about doing modification of drones. I want to take a dragonfly add chameleon coating and signature reduction. If the numbers go below -6 it is equivalent to invisible. Common sense may dictate that a dragonfly buzzing over my desk will be noticed, but in 2070 the dragonfly can be coated in ruthenium polymer. While a dragonfly makes some noise buzzing around, these can have their sound dampened (I am assuming this is what sig reduction does) to nearly nothing. The average sec guard will not have any dice to roll to detect something with a sig of -6, not to even mention getting 3 hits. Look at the signature values of these devices. If you as GM think they are ridiculous, feel free to modify them to suit.
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