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Joe Chummer
post Oct 5 2009, 02:10 AM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Oct 4 2009, 09:24 PM) *
Vampires require blood and Essence - it is not simply a transfer medium, it is a dietary requirement on it's own. Further, Essence Drain only functions against living sentient beings.

If you can convince your GM that the blood from a blood bank is both living & sentient, then it might work. This is very obviously a bullshit tactic though.



Well, that must've changed since 2nd Ed. (the last ed. I was familiar with). Now I really wish I could remember where I read that comment about the vamp who visited the blood bank...
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Weaver95
post Oct 5 2009, 02:13 AM
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QUOTE (Joe Chummer @ Oct 4 2009, 09:07 PM) *
Well, aside from whatever legal troubles you might get from, say, making deals with the Devil *COUGH!* er, Tamanous.


in some respects that's not TOO much different than what any other shadowrunner has to put up with...one of the themes of the game is that runners make deals with bad people so they can avoid the consequences of dealing with worse people. it's just that the infected have something a bit more wet and messy to deal with than most of the folks living in the shadows.
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Joe Chummer
post Oct 5 2009, 02:30 AM
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QUOTE (Weaver95 @ Oct 4 2009, 10:13 PM) *
in some respects that's not TOO much different than what any other shadowrunner has to put up with...one of the themes of the game is that runners make deals with bad people so they can avoid the consequences of dealing with worse people. it's just that the infected have something a bit more wet and messy to deal with than most of the folks living in the shadows.


At least normal runners have some choice in who they make deals with. Sure, some of those people might be on the gray side of the law, but it's pretty much guaranteed those who are in the trade of providing live metahumans for Infected to feast on definitely have black, oily hearts. I doubt people who sell other people like a pet store owner sells mice to feed to pythons is not the type to go home and hug his baby girl.
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Weaver95
post Oct 5 2009, 02:33 AM
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QUOTE (Joe Chummer @ Oct 4 2009, 09:30 PM) *
At least normal runners have some choice in who they make deals with. Sure, some of those people might be on the gray side of the law, but it's pretty much guaranteed those who are in the trade of providing live metahumans for Infected to feast on definitely have black, oily heart. I doubt people who sell other people like a pet store owner sells mice to feed to pythons is not the type to go home and hug his baby girl.


ghouls don't have feed on live people, just metahuman flesh. vampires, on the other hand, they need live people to drain essence. Of course, tamanous isn't exactly saying where they're getting the ghoul chow either so if you do your shopping in their marketplace then you're probably helping to cover up a murder by eating the evidence.
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Karoline
post Oct 5 2009, 02:40 AM
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QUOTE (Weaver95 @ Oct 4 2009, 10:33 PM) *
ghouls don't have feed on live people, just metahuman flesh. vampires, on the other hand, they need live people to drain essence. Of course, tamanous isn't exactly saying where they're getting the ghoul chow either so if you do your shopping in their marketplace then you're probably helping to cover up a murder by eating the evidence.


The desire of law enforcement just adds to the flavor (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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The Dragon Girl
post Oct 5 2009, 02:40 AM
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Yeah ghouls usually make arrangements with shadow friendly hospitol morgues. Or, you know.. get good with a shovel.
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The Dragon Girl
post Oct 5 2009, 02:41 AM
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My assassin has an 'arrangement' with a ghoul, for instance, at a good rate of pay I might add.
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Joe Chummer
post Oct 5 2009, 02:44 AM
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QUOTE (The Dragon Girl @ Oct 4 2009, 10:40 PM) *
Yeah ghouls usually make arrangements with shadow friendly hospitol morgues. Or, you know.. get good with a shovel.



Eww.

Would embalmed corpses even taste good or provide any semblance of nutrition? I can't abide the smell of formaldehyde, let alone imagine what it TASTES like.
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Karoline
post Oct 5 2009, 02:48 AM
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QUOTE (Joe Chummer @ Oct 4 2009, 10:44 PM) *
Eww.

Would embalmed corpses even taste good or provide any semblance of nutrition? I can't abide the smell of formaldehyde, let alone imagine what it TASTES like.


It tastes worse than it smells. I'd imagine there are some bum graves and 'super secret bury your murder victims here' graves that most people know about that wouldn't be embalmed. But your standard graveyard, yeah, that might not be that great of a place to get your meat. Doesn't it have to be at least semi-fresh?
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The Dragon Girl
post Oct 5 2009, 02:59 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 4 2009, 10:48 PM) *
It tastes worse than it smells. I'd imagine there are some bum graves and 'super secret bury your murder victims here' graves that most people know about that wouldn't be embalmed. But your standard graveyard, yeah, that might not be that great of a place to get your meat. Doesn't it have to be at least semi-fresh?



nope, actually is says decaying flesh is what they really want iirc
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Weaver95
post Oct 5 2009, 03:07 AM
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QUOTE (The Dragon Girl @ Oct 4 2009, 09:59 PM) *
nope, actually is says decaying flesh is what they really want iirc


yup - ghouls like their dinner to be a little past the due date, if ya knows what I mean.

so it's likely that a lot of criminal organizations would have connections to the tammies. After all, you never known when you might need to dispose of an incidental corpse or three. and if the evidence gets eaten, it can't come back to haunt you later. Tamanous strips it for parts, lets it season for a bit in the barrens somewhere, then chops it and sells it for ghoul chow.

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The Dragon Girl
post Oct 5 2009, 03:16 AM
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QUOTE (Weaver95 @ Oct 4 2009, 11:07 PM) *
yup - ghouls like their dinner to be a little past the due date, if ya knows what I mean.

so it's likely that a lot of criminal organizations would have connections to the tammies. After all, you never known when you might need to dispose of an incidental corpse or three. and if the evidence gets eaten, it can't come back to haunt you later. Tamanous strips it for parts, lets it season for a bit in the barrens somewhere, then chops it and sells it for ghoul chow.



Yup (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Although there are people besides Tamanous that the ghouls can make deals with. Heck there are even ghoul gangs and their source of (not)fresh bodies mentioned by name in at least one source book I can think of. (Corporate enclaves)
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Falconer
post Oct 5 2009, 03:18 AM
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*sigh*... I'm going to make a very strong point here.

Muspy has it right. There's no flaws in his reading here.

RAW is pretty much strictly... zombie apocalypse. It's a perfect illustration of what's wrong w/ half the things the current crop of authors write. They're authors, they do interesting fluff, but they don't think through the game effects of half of what they write. (EG: they don't write good rules half the time, and they don't catch them in playtesting/proofing; since RC/unwired this has seemed to be a problem when the quality control dropped).


Now, if you don't like it change it. But be carefull about what you change. There is absolutely nothing wrong w/ contact as a vector. If you don't like it being contact, don't fudge your way around contact... change it to injection. Read the rules, injection == aids (you come in contact w/ it and it gets in through a break in the skin, such as caused by ghoul claws/bites or some other injury).

On the disease rules, the only problem I see with them is that someone forgot that people use dice in this game... okay it's power 8. Automatic 8 successes to increase power after body reduces is where the problem w/ ALL diseases lie. If it was an opposed test I roll body, disease rolls power... increase/decrease power by net hits... rinse and repeat next day is simple and works.

As far as ghouls/infected... they're monsters for a reason. I see lots of attempts to make them 'not' monsters which make little to no sense.
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The Dragon Girl
post Oct 5 2009, 03:21 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Oct 4 2009, 11:18 PM) *
*sigh*... I'm going to make a very strong point here.

Muspy has it right. There's no flaws in his reading here.

RAW is pretty much strictly... zombie apocalypse. It's a perfect illustration of what's wrong w/ half the things the current crop of authors write. They're authors, they do good fluff, but they don't think through the game effects of half of what they write. (EG: they don't write good rules half the time, and they don't catch them in playtesting/proofing; since RC/unwired this has seemed to be a problem when the quality control dropped).


Now, if you don't like it change it. But be carefull about what you change. There is absolutely nothing wrong w/ contact as a vector. If you don't like it being contact, don't fudge your way around contact... change it to injection. Read the rules, injection == aids (you come in contact w/ it and it gets in through a break in the skin, such as caused by ghoul claws/bites).

On the disease rules, the only problem I see with them is that someone forgot that people use dice in this game... okay it's power 8. Automatic 8 successes to increase power after body reduces is where the problem w/ ALL diseases lie. If it was an opposed test I roll body, disease rolls power... increase/decrease power by net hits... rinse and repeat next day is simple and works.

As far as ghouls/infected... they're monsters for a reason. I see lots of attempts to make them 'not' monsters which make little to no sense.


The horror of what you become, what you have to do to survive, what you -will- do to survive, and who you become, is part of the appeal.
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Weaver95
post Oct 5 2009, 03:24 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Oct 4 2009, 10:18 PM) *
As far as ghouls/infected... they're monsters for a reason. I see lots of attempts to make them 'not' monsters which make little to no sense.


A recurring theme in transhumanist fiction is the definition of humanity. If we change form and function, do we change the essential definition of what it means to be 'human'? In that respect, playing one of the infected makes a certain kind of sense. victims of circumstance, forced to consume human flesh in order to survive - do they become the monsters everyone expects them to be, or do they try to find a way to rise above their condition? can they come to terms with the disease without losing what it means to be 'human'?

monsters we are lest monsters we become.
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Weaver95
post Oct 5 2009, 03:27 AM
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QUOTE (The Dragon Girl @ Oct 4 2009, 10:16 PM) *
Yup (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Although there are people besides Tamanous that the ghouls can make deals with. Heck there are even ghoul gangs and their source of (not)fresh bodies mentioned by name in at least one source book I can think of. (Corporate enclaves)


not only that, but a lot of the street docs might want a local ghoul pack on call just to dispose of the odd body that comes out of an unsuccessful run.

there was mention of one of the street ddcs working on/around glow city who has started to tag patients with RFID. when something finally kills them, he can follow the signal, retrieve the body and sell it as ghoul chow.
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Falconer
post Oct 5 2009, 03:28 AM
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At which point go play Vampire... the original point of vampire was to regain your humanity way back when.

But then some folks thought, why would I want to be lunch when I can be an even more powerfull vamp. Or in other words... coming to terms w/ your new pariah monster status.


The point still stands... if you insist on playing a ghoul... you are a monster. You are a threat to society at large. There are bounties on you for good reason. Don't expect much sympathy or anything to be easy. Especially don't expect other non-infected runners to want to socialize or work with you.

What are other players supposed to think... why don't I just cap this thing and collect the bounty? Do I want to become one of these things also?
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Karoline
post Oct 5 2009, 03:32 AM
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[plug]My SR Zombie Game[/plug]

Go Zombie Apocalypse.
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Weaver95
post Oct 5 2009, 03:32 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Oct 4 2009, 10:28 PM) *
What are other players supposed to think...


'Yo Igor, job opportunity - go gnaw on that corpsec guard while I finish hacking this node!'
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Joe Chummer
post Oct 5 2009, 03:34 AM
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This is probably a stupid question, but for the Infection power, if a character is reduced to 0 essence and then makes at least 1 net Body + Willpower hits against the Infected's Magic + Charisma, then that character dies, right? Death seems kinda like a raw deal for winning the test.

I'm also assuming that, per the RC rules, your GM could allow you to continue playing your character as an Infected (rather than relegating the character to NPC status). So if your character got turned mid-campaign, given the inherent challenges with being an essence-ovore, would you want to continue playing as a member of the Infected?
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post Oct 5 2009, 03:36 AM
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QUOTE (Weaver95 @ Oct 4 2009, 11:37 AM) *
I'm just curious - has anyone actually run a campaign (standard 400 pt or otherwise) that allowed for ghoul, vampire or other infected characters/concepts? If so, how did they stack up with the other players in your group?

I'm considering allowing a ghoul player character into my up and coming SR4 game and thought I'd ask the experts before I give the nod to my player(s). feedback welcome! positive, negative, or whatever you gots to say on the topic I wanna hear it.


Yes. I've played ghouls twice. The first time was back in SR3. I played a full mage. Physical Mask spell so I could go out in public. I don't recall any teammates having an issue with me being a ghoul, so we must not have done much roleplaying with that aspect.

The second time was last year. I must say that the contact vector coupled with the high power is stupid. House rule that away. This character (handed to me by the GM) was an adept. I was a melee monster, with all the attribute points granted by the infection. There were a couple of characters that I had fun interactions with. We were a shadowrunning team, fully owned by a benefactor who provided me with my food. It was a short-lived campaign, but I'm sure the character would have been viable over the long haul.
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Weaver95
post Oct 5 2009, 03:38 AM
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QUOTE (Joe Chummer @ Oct 4 2009, 10:34 PM) *
This is probably a stupid question, but for the Infection power, if a character is reduced to 0 essence and then makes at least 1 net Body + Willpower hits against the Infected's Magic + Charisma, then that character dies, right? Death seems kinda like a raw deal for winning the test.


infection is a curse, remember? you really aren't supposed to want to come back from death. especially as a soul sucking, blood drinking horror of the night.

One thing that the rules all take great pains to point out is that essence does not regenerate. you drain a little bit of someone's soul and it doesn't come back. well for most people anyway. that's the sort of thing that really has to hit home to anyone playing a vampire. ESPECIALLY if they're a mage. they can see that they're polluting astral space when they feed. even if it's only a little bit at a time, they're doing something fundamentally wrong and they know it.

but that's the price of power and immortality.
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Joe Chummer
post Oct 5 2009, 04:09 AM
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So, how exactly does a wendigo infect somebody with HMHVV? If it got its victim down to 0 Essence, the victim likely doesn't have any body parts left because the wendigo ate them all already.

I'm just picturing an Infected metatype with no arms and legs, being wheeled around on a cart, acting all fierce and such.
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The Dragon Girl
post Oct 5 2009, 04:35 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Oct 4 2009, 11:28 PM) *
At which point go play Vampire... the original point of vampire was to regain your humanity way back when.

But then some folks thought, why would I want to be lunch when I can be an even more powerfull vamp. Or in other words... coming to terms w/ your new pariah monster status.


The point still stands... if you insist on playing a ghoul... you are a monster. You are a threat to society at large. There are bounties on you for good reason. Don't expect much sympathy or anything to be easy. Especially don't expect other non-infected runners to want to socialize or work with you.

What are other players supposed to think... why don't I just cap this thing and collect the bounty? Do I want to become one of these things also?



But why play a vampire when you can play something thats much more horrifying, no neat tidy blood letting. You are consuming decayed metahuman flesh, and its not like you have he draw of power and influence that a vampire has.. no -character- would want to be a ghoul, but the player might. ..Plus theres that risk of going completely insane, not all ghouls survive the fever with their minds intact.

as for what the other teammates would think?
..well my assassin is in love with a ghoul doctor who was infected in his line of work. He struggles with what he is... and she pretty much only takes the wetwork jobs to make sure the silly slotter doesn't starve to death. And they're both rather upset that neither one of them is having troubles keeping their lunch over the whole business anymore. They pretty much keep each other sane, and more human than they would be otherwise. ...and hes asked her to put a bullet through him if he ever goes off the deep end.
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Starmage21
post Oct 5 2009, 04:48 AM
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QUOTE (Weaver95 @ Oct 4 2009, 10:38 PM) *
infection is a curse, remember? you really aren't supposed to want to come back from death. especially as a soul sucking, blood drinking horror of the night.

One thing that the rules all take great pains to point out is that essence does not regenerate. you drain a little bit of someone's soul and it doesn't come back. well for most people anyway. that's the sort of thing that really has to hit home to anyone playing a vampire. ESPECIALLY if they're a mage. they can see that they're polluting astral space when they feed. even if it's only a little bit at a time, they're doing something fundamentally wrong and they know it.

but that's the price of power and immortality.


Doesnt mean you cant have a little fun until your ride on the "immortality train" is over. After awhile, most of the ageless creatures are going to get freaking bored and off themselves. It takes a certain kind of personality to live through eons.
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