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#26
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 ![]() |
By the way, just what is the explanation for that nerf anyway? Aside from people bitching about it too much? That was pretty much it. SR4A had a lot of poorly thought-out rules changes. I mean, if you are going to nerf bows, then instead of setting an arbitrary cap on it, change it from, say, (Str Min +2) P to (Str Min/2 + 2) P, or something like that. That way, bows do less damage, but you don't wind up with a ruling that says, in effect, that future technology is incapable of making a bow that lets a troll use his full Strength. I don't think they needed the nerf, but if you're going to do it, do it in a way that makes sense. I think the main thing was people comparing troll bow damage to assault cannon damage. Never mind that assault cannons also have an AP of -5, and that's before factoring in AV cannon rounds... |
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#27
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
Sniper with Astral Hazing and some sort of long range ultrasound would put a real hurt on a mage, and be fairly effective overall regardless.
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#28
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The ShadowComedian ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 ![]() |
Why ultrasound?
Why not Radar? |
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#29
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
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#30
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 ![]() |
You're clearly going to select both.
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#31
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 25-September 06 Member No.: 9,467 ![]() |
I could see a true high end assassin being amused by this, then managing to kill the "winner" at the winners ceremony, on live television no less, without anyone ever seeing him. Maybe leaving a calling card behind so everyone knows who the "best" really is
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#32
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 983 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 326 ![]() |
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#33
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 25-September 06 Member No.: 9,467 ![]() |
Why would radar - which uses radio waves - be defeated by silence? One could argue that radio waves are just a different type of sound waves, and thus would be negated by silence. Though technically that is incorrect, and radio waves are much closer to light, so maybe they could be canceled out by improved invisibilty? |
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#34
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 983 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 326 ![]() |
One could argue that radio waves are just a different type of sound waves, and thus would be negated by silence. Though technically that is incorrect... It's not just technically incorrect, it's plainly and simply completely false. [edit: That sounded dickish. Sorry! Not intended to.] Sound is [perceived] pressure waves in a medium, whereas radio is electromagnetic radiation. The two are almost wholly dissimilar. ...and radio waves are much closer to light, so maybe they could be canceled out by improved invisibilty? This is one of those issues which is most definitely arguable. Improved Invisibility allows both visible light and infrared radiation to pass through the subject of the spell [and since it prevents the perceiver from observing the heat given off by the subject, it must also somehow prevent infrared radiation from leaving the subject, suggesting even flashlights might be prevented from shining away from the subject...somehow], but together those frequencies of electromagnetic radiation make up a small fraction of the total spectrum, from about 1 micrometer to 100 micrometers [assuming Improved Invisibility effects even FIR]. Would the spell also effect radio waves, from 1 millimeter to 100,000 kilometers? [Or 10mm to 100mm, assuming Shadowrun radar uses roughly the same frequencies modern radar does.] This is one for the GM. |
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#35
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
One could argue that radio waves are just a different type of sound waves, and thus would be negated by silence. Though technically that is incorrect, and radio waves are much closer to light, so maybe they could be canceled out by improved invisibilty? Wow... Just... Wow... Wrong on so many levels... Keep the Faith |
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#36
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 25-September 06 Member No.: 9,467 ![]() |
Wow... Just... Wow... Wrong on so many levels... Keep the Faith Thanks for your valuable input. While I do realize that radio waves are in fact part of the EM spectrum, if you asked the average joe he would probably tell you that radio waves are a type of sound wave. That is why I stated that was incorrect. However, the improved invisibility thing may have merit the more I think about it. Perhaps a modified version to allow all EM radiation to pass through a subject? |
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#37
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 983 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 326 ![]() |
...if you asked the average joe he would probably tell you that radio waves are a type of sound wave. I wonder if that's really true. Many people conflate sonar with radar - not helped by all those times people talk about "bat radar," an idea so monumentally insane it bears consideration just because of the enormity of the madness thus implied - but I wonder how many people - average joe people - would conflate sound and radio waves. Probably not information I could possess without what would be a very strange bit of polling, but interesting, nevertheless. However, the improved invisibility thing may have merit the more I think about it. Perhaps a modified version to allow all EM radiation to pass through a subject? I've been thinking about it since your first post. If I were to allow such a thing, it would bear careful scrutiny of the characteristics of various energy levels and wavelengths; I would probably only allow a certain slice of the EM spectrum to be manipulated in this way, and would certainly raise the drain levels accordingly. I'd also think a whole lot about the ramifications. Much like spirits and Concealment, something that can cause all electromagnetic radiation - or even just a significant portion of it - to pass through a solid object is going to have massive effects on things like, say, military tactics. [As has, I believe, been dealt with in previous Shadowrun projects; seems to me part of the Tir/California conflict involved spirits using Concealment to baffle ground radar.] |
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#38
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
Thanks for your valuable input. While I do realize that radio waves are in fact part of the EM spectrum, if you asked the average joe he would probably tell you that radio waves are a type of sound wave. That is why I stated that was incorrect. However, the improved invisibility thing may have merit the more I think about it. Perhaps a modified version to allow all EM radiation to pass through a subject? Which is a sad state of affairs for our educational system, don't you think? Keep the Faith |
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#39
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 25-September 06 Member No.: 9,467 ![]() |
I don't know. I mean, how does it affect Joe Average? Why should he know the difference?
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#40
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 983 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 326 ![]() |
I don't know. I mean, how does it affect Joe Average? Why should he know the difference? Very few pieces of information exist in a vacuum. The knowledge of how sound and electromagnetic radiation work, and the ways in which they are different, possess countless uses beyond knowing whether or not Silence spells would stop radar from working. I, for one, strongly believe the world would receive immense benefit if "average people" were given scientific educations capable of differentiating between sound and electromagnetic radiation. The better everyone understands basic scientific principles, the more able we are as a society to make intelligent, informed decisions about how, when, and why we manipulate the universe around us. Ignorance benefits no one. Oh: plus, you can figure out how far away storms are! And figure out why your computer speakers keep popping whenever lightning strikes. And understand the cop can still figure out how fast you're going even if it's really loud outside. I could list specific bullshit for days, but really, I think information is its own reward, for everyone. |
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#41
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
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#42
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 163 Joined: 28-September 09 From: Soldotna, Alaska Member No.: 17,683 ![]() |
So, um, isn't this supposed to be about making an assassin? Is it 400 BP? Karmagen? Priority? Is it the 10000 "Superhuman Prime Runner" setup?
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#43
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
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#44
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 308 Joined: 1-June 06 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Member No.: 8,631 ![]() |
I'd say probably 400 BP would be a start, and then depending on turnout, add a ringer or two. And this is any type of assassin you want, heck I can just imagine how a poisoning type would work.
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#45
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,536 Joined: 13-July 09 Member No.: 17,389 ![]() |
High Intuition + High Agility + Perception + Infiltration + Longarms.
Chameleon Suit + Sniper Rifle + Shotgun A high Knowledge Skill in Sniper Tactics will give them an advantage in picking out likely sniper spots. This is ludicrously easy to do within 400BP. It all boils down to who can stay hidden the best while being able to spot and quickly eliminate the opposition.... The truth is that any formally educated snipers will be some of the toughest opponents. At least in US Army training snipers are masters at stealth. Consider this, to pass training they have to complete "The Stalk". This is arguably one of the most difficult bits of publicly known US military training. The Stalk requires the sniper to be unnoticed and "take two shots" at an instructor. The sniper starts at 1000m and must move to within 150m to take the first shot, a fired blank as well as IDing something on the instructor. The student then needs to move to a 2nd position for a 2nd shot. It's a pass or fail exercise and being spotted or located is an instant fail. Not only do the target instructors have vision tools to try to spot the student, but there are also instructors roaming the field looking for the student. This training exercise is far tougher than any real world condition, since shots will usually be taken at distances over 600m. So the truth is that anyone who wasn't a trained sniper would be unlikely to win the tournament. Magic of course throws this all out of balance, then again it's questionable, I think to the usage, since all the detect spells give a relative position rather than exact, and detect enemies is only going to help when the concealed sniper is about to take a shot. |
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#46
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Cybernetic Blood Mage ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 ![]() |
I have to disagree about Detect Enemies, it should kick in at the moment when the sniper decides to start lining his shot up so it isn't nearly as useless as it would first appear. At the very least it woudl prevent the sniper from taking his time and being able to aim.
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#47
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,536 Joined: 13-July 09 Member No.: 17,389 ![]() |
I have to disagree about Detect Enemies, it should kick in at the moment when the sniper decides to start lining his shot up so it isn't nearly as useless as it would first appear. At the very least it woudl prevent the sniper from taking his time and being able to aim. Not really, if you think about how a true sniper lines up a shot. They only shoot when all the conditions are right. In other words, a sniper can be lining up a shot on you, but unless environmental conditions are favorably, they won't take a shot. Regardless, by the wording of the spell, it would only give you the approximate location of the sniper. That's it. If the sniper is going to wait for someone to move into position that is favorable to taking a shot before even attempt to take a shot. Example, the sniper is waiting for someone to cross into a large open field. Your mage with detect enemies is walking inside a building with open windows. The sniper will probably watch you, but isn't interested in taking a shot on you unless you become aggressive to him because you're in a location he isn't likely to get a guaranteed kill. The sniper is obviously an enemy, but he isn't hostile. So would detect enemies trigger? If it doesn't that means that detect enemies will trigger when you're in a weak position, possibly wide open, so how does knowing that someone is in a general location going to help you unless you have some spells you can quickly cast to save yourself? |
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#48
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Cybernetic Blood Mage ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 ![]() |
I would argue that the sniper counts as "Hostile" for the purposes of the spell as he is laying in wait, his intention is to kill his target(s) of which you happen to be since you are also in the game. And yeah, "waiting until condictions are right" is exactly why the spell would work.
Of course I'm assuming that "the players" are given at least some basic information on each other beforehand, now if the sniper honestly didn't at least have a basic idea of who he was going to be aiming at then the spell probably wouldn't ping him until he noticed you and decided to line up the shot before taking it. |
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#49
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,536 Joined: 13-July 09 Member No.: 17,389 ![]() |
I would argue that the sniper counts as "Hostile" for the purposes of the spell as he is laying in wait, his intention is to kill his target(s) of which you happen to be since you are also in the game. And yeah, "waiting until condictions are right" is exactly why the spell would work. Of course I'm assuming that "the players" are given at least some basic information on each other beforehand, now if the sniper honestly didn't at least have a basic idea of who he was going to be aiming at then the spell probably wouldn't ping him until he noticed you and decided to line up the shot before taking it. The way I look at it, you have X number of individuals in an arena that is likely a cityscape. The sniper knows he has X enemies, he doesn't know what order he will encounter them nor does he necessarily care. He'll pick his spot to make his first shot from, plus others should he miss killing the person with one shot. Likewise, since survival is the goal, the sniper won't take any shots where he may miss unless his life is directly threatened. Haphazardly taking shots will only reveal his location. As I stated before, this translates to hostility only when you're in a situation where he is likely to take a shot. This sniper will have all the time in the world compared to a sniper that is tasked with taking out a certain target within a certain time frame. The sniper will only be hostile to you when you're in the open or other favorable shot locations, or you are actively targeting/hunting him. That's the way I would rule as a GM, mostly because I think it's silly that one spell completely destroys -any- possibility of surprise. Especially in a PvP setting. |
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#50
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Cybernetic Blood Mage ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 ![]() |
Well I have to disagree given your setup because the sniper is planning on killing someone and he knows that everyone in the area will be a target so the spell should ping the moment he sees the Mage. Now IF the sniper believed that there were bystanders and only wanted to kill players then the spell should only ping when he decided that the Mage was a player.
Basically I don't agree that Detect Enemies would normally destory any possiblity of suprise, merely that in the contest as you lay out it logically defeats your "Sniper always wins." |
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