IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
Glyph
post Oct 25 2009, 09:31 PM
Post #26


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,116
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,449



QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 25 2009, 12:23 PM) *
By the way, just what is the explanation for that nerf anyway?
Aside from people bitching about it too much?

That was pretty much it. SR4A had a lot of poorly thought-out rules changes. I mean, if you are going to nerf bows, then instead of setting an arbitrary cap on it, change it from, say, (Str Min +2) P to (Str Min/2 + 2) P, or something like that. That way, bows do less damage, but you don't wind up with a ruling that says, in effect, that future technology is incapable of making a bow that lets a troll use his full Strength. I don't think they needed the nerf, but if you're going to do it, do it in a way that makes sense.

I think the main thing was people comparing troll bow damage to assault cannon damage. Never mind that assault cannons also have an AP of -5, and that's before factoring in AV cannon rounds...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Karoline
post Oct 25 2009, 10:01 PM
Post #27


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,679
Joined: 19-September 09
Member No.: 17,652



Sniper with Astral Hazing and some sort of long range ultrasound would put a real hurt on a mage, and be fairly effective overall regardless.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Stahlseele
post Oct 25 2009, 10:06 PM
Post #28


The ShadowComedian
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,538
Joined: 3-October 07
From: Hamburg, AGS
Member No.: 13,525



Why ultrasound?
Why not Radar?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Karoline
post Oct 25 2009, 11:24 PM
Post #29


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,679
Joined: 19-September 09
Member No.: 17,652



QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 25 2009, 05:06 PM) *
Why ultrasound?
Why not Radar?

Radar would basically be long range ultrasound. Of course that could still be defeated with a silence spell.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cthulhudreams
post Oct 25 2009, 11:29 PM
Post #30


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,650
Joined: 21-July 07
Member No.: 12,328



You're clearly going to select both.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PirateChef
post Oct 25 2009, 11:42 PM
Post #31


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 269
Joined: 25-September 06
Member No.: 9,467



I could see a true high end assassin being amused by this, then managing to kill the "winner" at the winners ceremony, on live television no less, without anyone ever seeing him. Maybe leaving a calling card behind so everyone knows who the "best" really is
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
3278
post Oct 25 2009, 11:46 PM
Post #32


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 983
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 326



QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 25 2009, 11:24 PM) *
Radar would basically be long range ultrasound. Of course that could still be defeated with a silence spell.

Why would radar - which uses radio waves - be defeated by silence?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PirateChef
post Oct 26 2009, 01:06 AM
Post #33


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 269
Joined: 25-September 06
Member No.: 9,467



QUOTE (3278 @ Oct 25 2009, 06:46 PM) *
Why would radar - which uses radio waves - be defeated by silence?

One could argue that radio waves are just a different type of sound waves, and thus would be negated by silence. Though technically that is incorrect, and radio waves are much closer to light, so maybe they could be canceled out by improved invisibilty?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
3278
post Oct 26 2009, 01:36 AM
Post #34


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 983
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 326



QUOTE (PirateChef @ Oct 26 2009, 01:06 AM) *
One could argue that radio waves are just a different type of sound waves, and thus would be negated by silence. Though technically that is incorrect...

It's not just technically incorrect, it's plainly and simply completely false. [edit: That sounded dickish. Sorry! Not intended to.] Sound is [perceived] pressure waves in a medium, whereas radio is electromagnetic radiation. The two are almost wholly dissimilar.

QUOTE (PirateChef @ Oct 26 2009, 01:06 AM) *
...and radio waves are much closer to light, so maybe they could be canceled out by improved invisibilty?

This is one of those issues which is most definitely arguable. Improved Invisibility allows both visible light and infrared radiation to pass through the subject of the spell [and since it prevents the perceiver from observing the heat given off by the subject, it must also somehow prevent infrared radiation from leaving the subject, suggesting even flashlights might be prevented from shining away from the subject...somehow], but together those frequencies of electromagnetic radiation make up a small fraction of the total spectrum, from about 1 micrometer to 100 micrometers [assuming Improved Invisibility effects even FIR]. Would the spell also effect radio waves, from 1 millimeter to 100,000 kilometers? [Or 10mm to 100mm, assuming Shadowrun radar uses roughly the same frequencies modern radar does.]

This is one for the GM.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 26 2009, 02:26 AM
Post #35


Prime Runner Ascendant
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 17,568
Joined: 26-March 09
From: Aurora, Colorado
Member No.: 17,022



QUOTE (PirateChef @ Oct 25 2009, 07:06 PM) *
One could argue that radio waves are just a different type of sound waves, and thus would be negated by silence. Though technically that is incorrect, and radio waves are much closer to light, so maybe they could be canceled out by improved invisibilty?



Wow... Just... Wow...
Wrong on so many levels...


Keep the Faith
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PirateChef
post Oct 26 2009, 02:51 AM
Post #36


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 269
Joined: 25-September 06
Member No.: 9,467



QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 25 2009, 09:26 PM) *
Wow... Just... Wow...
Wrong on so many levels...


Keep the Faith

Thanks for your valuable input.


While I do realize that radio waves are in fact part of the EM spectrum, if you asked the average joe he would probably tell you that radio waves are a type of sound wave. That is why I stated that was incorrect.

However, the improved invisibility thing may have merit the more I think about it. Perhaps a modified version to allow all EM radiation to pass through a subject?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
3278
post Oct 26 2009, 02:54 AM
Post #37


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 983
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 326



QUOTE (PirateChef @ Oct 26 2009, 03:51 AM) *
...if you asked the average joe he would probably tell you that radio waves are a type of sound wave.

I wonder if that's really true. Many people conflate sonar with radar - not helped by all those times people talk about "bat radar," an idea so monumentally insane it bears consideration just because of the enormity of the madness thus implied - but I wonder how many people - average joe people - would conflate sound and radio waves. Probably not information I could possess without what would be a very strange bit of polling, but interesting, nevertheless.

QUOTE (PirateChef @ Oct 26 2009, 03:51 AM) *
However, the improved invisibility thing may have merit the more I think about it. Perhaps a modified version to allow all EM radiation to pass through a subject?

I've been thinking about it since your first post. If I were to allow such a thing, it would bear careful scrutiny of the characteristics of various energy levels and wavelengths; I would probably only allow a certain slice of the EM spectrum to be manipulated in this way, and would certainly raise the drain levels accordingly.

I'd also think a whole lot about the ramifications. Much like spirits and Concealment, something that can cause all electromagnetic radiation - or even just a significant portion of it - to pass through a solid object is going to have massive effects on things like, say, military tactics. [As has, I believe, been dealt with in previous Shadowrun projects; seems to me part of the Tir/California conflict involved spirits using Concealment to baffle ground radar.]
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 26 2009, 03:03 AM
Post #38


Prime Runner Ascendant
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 17,568
Joined: 26-March 09
From: Aurora, Colorado
Member No.: 17,022



QUOTE (PirateChef @ Oct 25 2009, 08:51 PM) *
Thanks for your valuable input.


While I do realize that radio waves are in fact part of the EM spectrum, if you asked the average joe he would probably tell you that radio waves are a type of sound wave. That is why I stated that was incorrect.

However, the improved invisibility thing may have merit the more I think about it. Perhaps a modified version to allow all EM radiation to pass through a subject?



Which is a sad state of affairs for our educational system, don't you think?

Keep the Faith
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PirateChef
post Oct 26 2009, 03:27 AM
Post #39


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 269
Joined: 25-September 06
Member No.: 9,467



I don't know. I mean, how does it affect Joe Average? Why should he know the difference?

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
3278
post Oct 26 2009, 03:45 AM
Post #40


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 983
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 326



QUOTE (PirateChef @ Oct 26 2009, 03:27 AM) *
I don't know. I mean, how does it affect Joe Average? Why should he know the difference?

Very few pieces of information exist in a vacuum. The knowledge of how sound and electromagnetic radiation work, and the ways in which they are different, possess countless uses beyond knowing whether or not Silence spells would stop radar from working. I, for one, strongly believe the world would receive immense benefit if "average people" were given scientific educations capable of differentiating between sound and electromagnetic radiation. The better everyone understands basic scientific principles, the more able we are as a society to make intelligent, informed decisions about how, when, and why we manipulate the universe around us. Ignorance benefits no one.

Oh: plus, you can figure out how far away storms are! And figure out why your computer speakers keep popping whenever lightning strikes. And understand the cop can still figure out how fast you're going even if it's really loud outside. I could list specific bullshit for days, but really, I think information is its own reward, for everyone.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 27 2009, 12:03 AM
Post #41


Prime Runner Ascendant
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 17,568
Joined: 26-March 09
From: Aurora, Colorado
Member No.: 17,022



QUOTE (PirateChef @ Oct 25 2009, 08:27 PM) *
I don't know. I mean, how does it affect Joe Average? Why should he know the difference?



Why shoud he not know?
And I have to agree with 3278's POst above as well...

Keep the Faith
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AKWeaponsSpecial...
post Oct 27 2009, 01:11 AM
Post #42


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 163
Joined: 28-September 09
From: Soldotna, Alaska
Member No.: 17,683



So, um, isn't this supposed to be about making an assassin? Is it 400 BP? Karmagen? Priority? Is it the 10000 "Superhuman Prime Runner" setup?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 27 2009, 01:49 AM
Post #43


Prime Runner Ascendant
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 17,568
Joined: 26-March 09
From: Aurora, Colorado
Member No.: 17,022



QUOTE (AKWeaponsSpecialist @ Oct 26 2009, 07:11 PM) *
So, um, isn't this supposed to be about making an assassin? Is it 400 BP? Karmagen? Priority? Is it the 10000 "Superhuman Prime Runner" setup?


These questions are answered above in previous posts...

Keep the Faith
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Drraagh
post Oct 27 2009, 09:38 AM
Post #44


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 308
Joined: 1-June 06
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Member No.: 8,631



I'd say probably 400 BP would be a start, and then depending on turnout, add a ringer or two. And this is any type of assassin you want, heck I can just imagine how a poisoning type would work.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
StealthSigma
post Oct 27 2009, 02:13 PM
Post #45


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,536
Joined: 13-July 09
Member No.: 17,389



High Intuition + High Agility + Perception + Infiltration + Longarms.

Chameleon Suit + Sniper Rifle + Shotgun

A high Knowledge Skill in Sniper Tactics will give them an advantage in picking out likely sniper spots.

This is ludicrously easy to do within 400BP.

It all boils down to who can stay hidden the best while being able to spot and quickly eliminate the opposition....

The truth is that any formally educated snipers will be some of the toughest opponents. At least in US Army training snipers are masters at stealth. Consider this, to pass training they have to complete "The Stalk". This is arguably one of the most difficult bits of publicly known US military training. The Stalk requires the sniper to be unnoticed and "take two shots" at an instructor. The sniper starts at 1000m and must move to within 150m to take the first shot, a fired blank as well as IDing something on the instructor. The student then needs to move to a 2nd position for a 2nd shot. It's a pass or fail exercise and being spotted or located is an instant fail. Not only do the target instructors have vision tools to try to spot the student, but there are also instructors roaming the field looking for the student. This training exercise is far tougher than any real world condition, since shots will usually be taken at distances over 600m.

So the truth is that anyone who wasn't a trained sniper would be unlikely to win the tournament. Magic of course throws this all out of balance, then again it's questionable, I think to the usage, since all the detect spells give a relative position rather than exact, and detect enemies is only going to help when the concealed sniper is about to take a shot.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ravor
post Oct 27 2009, 02:23 PM
Post #46


Cybernetic Blood Mage
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,472
Joined: 11-March 06
From: Northeastern Wyoming
Member No.: 8,361



I have to disagree about Detect Enemies, it should kick in at the moment when the sniper decides to start lining his shot up so it isn't nearly as useless as it would first appear. At the very least it woudl prevent the sniper from taking his time and being able to aim.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
StealthSigma
post Oct 27 2009, 03:18 PM
Post #47


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,536
Joined: 13-July 09
Member No.: 17,389



QUOTE (Ravor @ Oct 27 2009, 10:23 AM) *
I have to disagree about Detect Enemies, it should kick in at the moment when the sniper decides to start lining his shot up so it isn't nearly as useless as it would first appear. At the very least it woudl prevent the sniper from taking his time and being able to aim.


Not really, if you think about how a true sniper lines up a shot. They only shoot when all the conditions are right. In other words, a sniper can be lining up a shot on you, but unless environmental conditions are favorably, they won't take a shot. Regardless, by the wording of the spell, it would only give you the approximate location of the sniper. That's it. If the sniper is going to wait for someone to move into position that is favorable to taking a shot before even attempt to take a shot.

Example, the sniper is waiting for someone to cross into a large open field. Your mage with detect enemies is walking inside a building with open windows. The sniper will probably watch you, but isn't interested in taking a shot on you unless you become aggressive to him because you're in a location he isn't likely to get a guaranteed kill. The sniper is obviously an enemy, but he isn't hostile. So would detect enemies trigger? If it doesn't that means that detect enemies will trigger when you're in a weak position, possibly wide open, so how does knowing that someone is in a general location going to help you unless you have some spells you can quickly cast to save yourself?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ravor
post Oct 27 2009, 03:32 PM
Post #48


Cybernetic Blood Mage
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,472
Joined: 11-March 06
From: Northeastern Wyoming
Member No.: 8,361



I would argue that the sniper counts as "Hostile" for the purposes of the spell as he is laying in wait, his intention is to kill his target(s) of which you happen to be since you are also in the game. And yeah, "waiting until condictions are right" is exactly why the spell would work.

Of course I'm assuming that "the players" are given at least some basic information on each other beforehand, now if the sniper honestly didn't at least have a basic idea of who he was going to be aiming at then the spell probably wouldn't ping him until he noticed you and decided to line up the shot before taking it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
StealthSigma
post Oct 27 2009, 04:00 PM
Post #49


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,536
Joined: 13-July 09
Member No.: 17,389



QUOTE (Ravor @ Oct 27 2009, 11:32 AM) *
I would argue that the sniper counts as "Hostile" for the purposes of the spell as he is laying in wait, his intention is to kill his target(s) of which you happen to be since you are also in the game. And yeah, "waiting until condictions are right" is exactly why the spell would work.

Of course I'm assuming that "the players" are given at least some basic information on each other beforehand, now if the sniper honestly didn't at least have a basic idea of who he was going to be aiming at then the spell probably wouldn't ping him until he noticed you and decided to line up the shot before taking it.


The way I look at it, you have X number of individuals in an arena that is likely a cityscape. The sniper knows he has X enemies, he doesn't know what order he will encounter them nor does he necessarily care. He'll pick his spot to make his first shot from, plus others should he miss killing the person with one shot. Likewise, since survival is the goal, the sniper won't take any shots where he may miss unless his life is directly threatened. Haphazardly taking shots will only reveal his location. As I stated before, this translates to hostility only when you're in a situation where he is likely to take a shot. This sniper will have all the time in the world compared to a sniper that is tasked with taking out a certain target within a certain time frame.

The sniper will only be hostile to you when you're in the open or other favorable shot locations, or you are actively targeting/hunting him.

That's the way I would rule as a GM, mostly because I think it's silly that one spell completely destroys -any- possibility of surprise. Especially in a PvP setting.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ravor
post Oct 27 2009, 04:16 PM
Post #50


Cybernetic Blood Mage
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,472
Joined: 11-March 06
From: Northeastern Wyoming
Member No.: 8,361



Well I have to disagree given your setup because the sniper is planning on killing someone and he knows that everyone in the area will be a target so the spell should ping the moment he sees the Mage. Now IF the sniper believed that there were bystanders and only wanted to kill players then the spell should only ping when he decided that the Mage was a player.

Basically I don't agree that Detect Enemies would normally destory any possiblity of suprise, merely that in the contest as you lay out it logically defeats your "Sniper always wins."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 19th June 2025 - 04:23 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.