Dumpshock Forums > The Tournament Request

Drraagh

Oct 24 2009, 09:49 AM

Thirty Assassins all seeking to prove they are the best. Convicted felons running for their freedom through a maze of deathtraps while being chased. A number of average, everyday people being chosen by the lottery to compete in a fight to the death. A number of ordinary people hiding from a number of specially trained agents to complete objectives and successfully escape the maze to win cash.

That is: The movie 'Tournament', the movie 'Running Man', the movie 'Series 7: The Contenders' and finally, the TV show 'Cha$e'. Now, I am thinking of having, as background color to my game, a series where the various killers will compete against each other. I don't want to make it where the players can take part. At least not the first game. I was thinking about getting them to that point by entering them into one of those Citywide Laser Tag or Water Gun assassination contests, to get them thinking that way. But I wanted to give them a 'final round' that was hinted at ahead of time.

As such, I figure it might be fun to see what you all come up with as some of the top of the line killers out there, and then use their stats in their encounters. If you want to include some writeup on personality, strategies, etc, could even add to local color and I could post some reports about who takes out who. Part of me was thinking about taking a city map and turning it into like a Scotland Yard type board (I was seeing some commercials for the new Clue! game and it looks similar).

This is an example of the board for those of you who haven't played the game, you're chasing Mr. X around Scotland as agents of Scotland Yard. There are like thirty moves, and you don't get to see Mr. X move. Just his starting position and every fifth position or something like that. You can take a cab, bus or subway, depending on the square you're on and the number of tokens you have for each. You have to predict where Mr. X is going and try to cut him off with your agents. Can be a fun game.

Anyway, creating a map with different routes like that allows that the targets will encounter each other, but the question is in what order and what route they take to do so. I can even include updates if people are interested to see how the game goes. If people provide anything, that is.

I can make the assassins myself, but in the end, it gives variety to see people creating them their way.

I don't know how magic would play into this, because some spells really could short out the contest. But for now, I think the basics are make your assassins, and we'll see how they fare. But when they start, they only get a few melee/ranged weapons, so no drones or anything like that. Nothing saying they can't make/buy/steal/etc, but just not starting out with them.

If people don't like this, feel free to object. I'm just spitballing ideas and think it could be fun.

crash2029

Oct 24 2009, 08:50 PM

If I am understanding this properly you want us to post assassin builds, right? If so then what are the criteria for the builds? Are we using standard chargen? Karmagen? Priority? Houserules? I think it is an interesting idea but (at least for me) I need a little more in the way of guidelines for making death-dealers.

I am looking forward to this. It should be interesting.

Drraagh

Oct 24 2009, 09:03 PM

QUOTE (crash2029 @ Oct 24 2009, 04:50 PM)

If I am understanding this properly you want us to post assassin builds, right? If so then what are the criteria for the builds? Are we using standard chargen? Karmagen? Priority? Houserules? I think it is an interesting idea but (at least for me) I need a little more in the way of guidelines for making death-dealers.

I am looking forward to this. It should be interesting.

I will look into it for builds, but I figure a high level point build would be the best way to do it. Probably something out of the reach of a normal character out of CG since these are the best of the best of the best. I came up with the idea at like four hours before having to leave for work (so I finally went to sleep and got maybe two or three hours sleep).

Glyph

Oct 24 2009, 11:17 PM

Actually, you can create some decent assassin builds with the basic 400 points. Here is an exotic, graceful Wakyambi assassin. I posted a similar build in another thread, but this version is less of a one-trick pony. New to Seattle and trying to get out of his debt to his fixer, he would naturally gravitate towards this potentially lucrative contest.

[ Spoiler ]

Ravor

Oct 24 2009, 11:37 PM

Although I like the basic idea of the show, I'm not sure that I agree that the assassins would be "the best of the best" and would instead focus on showsmanship as opposed to things that really work in the real world.

Drraagh

Oct 24 2009, 11:57 PM

Ravor, I will admit I don't disagree, but in the end what a lot of the games of skill like Running Man and Tournament come down to is how good you are. Sure, you can be able to put on a good show, but in the end, you're being given your prize only if you win. Unlike CP2020 where the rules are basically style over substance, this is looking for competence. The Tournament was made for the top assassins. I suppose you could make it the most showy as well, and would be fun that way too.

Cthulhudreams

Oct 25 2009, 12:28 AM

Wouldn't the ultimate character in a Scotland Yard style scenario be a character with a sniper rifle and divination?

Find out where he is going to be

Be there with a sniper rifle.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Oct 25 2009, 12:38 AM

QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Oct 24 2009, 05:28 PM)

Wouldn't the ultimate character in a Scotland Yard style scenario be a character with a sniper rifle and divination?

Find out where he is going to be

Be there with a sniper rifle.

That is an interesting soution...

Keep the Faith

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Oct 25 2009, 12:41 AM

QUOTE (Drraagh @ Oct 24 2009, 04:57 PM)

Ravor, I will admit I don't disagree, but in the end what a lot of the games of skill like Running Man and Tournament come down to is how good you are. Sure, you can be able to put on a good show, but in the end, you're being given your prize only if you win. Unlike CP2020 where the rules are basically style over substance, this is looking for competence. The Tournament was made for the top assassins. I suppose you could make it the most showy as well, and would be fun that way too.

I will jump in on this one and say this...

Top Flight, Stone-Cold Professional Assassins would probably not come anywhere within a thousand miles of such a scenario... they make their living on being anonymous, this is completely counter to everything that they would truly believe in...

It will, however, draw all of the fairly competent wanna be assassins, and yes, they would probably try to ham it up a bit to prove that they are just that good... Should be somewhat entertaining to watch...

Keep the Faith

Glyph

Oct 25 2009, 03:11 AM

The kind of assassins who would enter a tournament against other top killers, when they can make big bucks plunking some schmuck from a distance, would tend to be like shadowrunners. They would be people in desperate circumstances (part of why I kept the In Debt flaw for my own contribution), freaks, and headcases. The producers would probably also screen people to get "interesting" contestants.

That said, you could still get some very deadly people competing in this. Especially if some of the underworld factions see it in the same light as the corporations see Desert Wars. Namely, a chance to put in a heavy hitter to demonstrate their superiority over the other criminal elements.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Oct 25 2009, 03:14 AM

QUOTE (Glyph @ Oct 24 2009, 08:11 PM)

The kind of assassins who would enter a tournament against other top killers, when they can make big bucks plunking some schmuck from a distance, would tend to be like shadowrunners. They would be people in desperate circumstances (part of why I kept the In Debt flaw for my own contribution), freaks, and headcases. The producers would probably also screen people to get "interesting" contestants.

That said, you could still get some very deadly people competing in this. Especially if some of the underworld factions see it in the same light as the corporations see Desert Wars. Namely, a chance to put in a heavy hitter to demonstrate their superiority over the other criminal elements.

Sure, I cannot argue with that logic... I just do not see the cream of the crop participating...

Keep the Faith

toturi

Oct 25 2009, 04:00 AM

QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Oct 25 2009, 08:28 AM)

Wouldn't the ultimate character in a Scotland Yard style scenario be a character with a sniper rifle and divination?

Find out where he is going to be

Be there with a sniper rifle.

On that we are agreed and probably with high Intuition and one or two high rating Knowledge skills.

Platinum

Oct 25 2009, 04:16 AM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 24 2009, 10:14 PM)

Sure, I cannot argue with that logic... I just do not see the cream of the crop participating...

Keep the Faith

I drew the same conclusion. Remember that old movie Leon. He was professional, and no way would he be in something like that. Assassins are cold calculating and usually driven by something deeper. Of course there are a few other movies out there where characters had to bump off the reigning king in order to move into place, but 30?

I do love the idea, but see it happening a different way.

Cthulhudreams

Oct 25 2009, 04:59 AM

QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 25 2009, 03:00 PM)

On that we are agreed and probably with high Intuition and one or two high rating Knowledge skills.

I feel divination is the best ability in the game. Knowing what the other guy is going to do before he even thinks about doing is just amazing. It's like playing rock - paper - scissors when you already know what move the other guy is going to make.

Glyph

Oct 25 2009, 06:43 AM

But remember that very specific information is a Threshold: 4 test, and that there are also going to be 28 other people mucking around. Divination rules, but it is better for singular events. It would be less useful in this kind of competition.

Cthulhudreams

Oct 25 2009, 06:56 AM

Sorry, I was just thinking of the Board Game Scotland Yard where it is 'find one guy' - in which case it works brilliantly, but maybe not so much in a 28 player FFA.

Drraagh

Oct 25 2009, 06:13 PM

Well, the Scotland Yard example was mostly trying to think of a way to make the game 'fair' from a OOC standpoint. I mean, thinking from an automation view, it would be really easy to turn it into something like those old 'program your bot and let it loose in an arena' games I've seen before. You give each person a set of parameters, like this one will be reckless and go charging in, this one will hang back and let two people duke it out only to come in and then kill the winner when they're distracted. Another may be a hider, making the others come to them into an ambush.

All of those would be able to be predicted by a computer or even just written into their personalities that they would follow. Turning it into a sort of 'Game of Life', where each of the cells would react a different way and the gameplay would emerge from it.

And after reading some of the posts, yes, I agree these wouldn't be the most 'professional' type of assassins, but classifying someone as a top assassin can be hard work. I mean, think about how many of the professionals don't have their name tied to anything. Yes, it makes them a 'professional', but from an outsider's perspective, ten people could say they did that job is there's no way to prove who actually did it since they didn't get themselves known. But that's just an idle thought; so yes, these would be the most 'fame seeking, showy' assassins because their records would be known, as opposed to the 'invisible, gone line a ghost' assassins.

3278

Oct 25 2009, 06:39 PM

We regularly play PC vs PC combat contests - called Omnidrome - in SR3, usually as an out-of-continuity way of blowing off steam and honing our understanding of the combat system. Two types of characters win most regularly:

1. Magic users. "I'm invisible, floating a mile above your head. I see you, you die." Even in more closed quarters, with more possible cover and concealment, one-on-one, a well-designed spellcaster is very difficult to defeat with a mundane character, largely because the system wasn't designed for this kind of balance. [The mage is usually there to help the sam, not to kill him. Usually.] That's certainly something to keep in mind when developing the setting, rules, and allowable characters, even in SR4.

2. Characters played by clever people. We've had a player take the Street Kid archetype and win against well-designed shadowrunners, because of player cleverness. [If you require your PC vs PC combat to be in-character, this obviously won't work, as the Street Kid as written isn't going to have the tactical knowledge or raw intellect to pull this off.] Ultimately, the numbers on the sheet matter far, far less than the mind of the tactician...but they do, I freely admit, help.

Stahlseele

Oct 25 2009, 06:47 PM

Troll with Big huge Bow. Anything he can see, he can pretty reliably kill too.
Combine with ultimate Mundane Climber Built to get into Shooting position.
Factor in Poisoned Arrow tips and even if the initial hit does not splatter the target, as long as it is a hit, it is enough for contact/injection vector Poison to do the rest.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Oct 25 2009, 07:15 PM

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 25 2009, 12:47 PM)

Troll with Big huge Bow. Anything he can see, he can pretty reliably kill too.
Combine with ultimate Mundane Climber Built to get into Shooting position.
Factor in Poisoned Arrow tips and even if the initial hit does not splatter the target, as long as it is a hit, it is enough for contact/injection vector Poison to do the rest.

Agreed... But realistically, when the troll fires that small tree at the target, does it really matter that is has poison on it... it never mattered for my Troll with a Bow...

Keep the Faith

Stahlseele

Oct 25 2009, 07:18 PM

Well, in Shadowrun, Miracles DO happen from time to time . . maybe the target is still alive with just one box . . then the poison kicks in and BAM! ^^
Also, SR3 Troll-Bows were pretty much as bad as it gets . . i still have my Robin Blood built that can do 22M Damage over 1000m completely silent.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Oct 25 2009, 07:19 PM

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 25 2009, 01:18 PM)

Well, in Shadowrun, Miracles DO happen from time to time . . maybe the target is still alive with just one box . . then the poison kicks in and BAM! ^^
Also, SR3 Troll-Bows were pretty much as bad as it gets . . i still have my Robin Blood built that can do 22M Damage over 1000m completely silent.

My Troll was not quite that bad, but he was indeed close...

Keep the Faith

Stahlseele

Oct 25 2009, 07:23 PM

And a Target Number of 2 + Modificators over any kind of distance too. That was pretty hardcore i will admit.
And in Close Combat 24M Damage. Plus 10D Stun after a successfull attack. Yes, i know, i am horrible =^.^=

Glyph

Oct 25 2009, 08:10 PM

Unfortunately , troll bows got nerfed pretty badly in SR4A - you can only get up to Strength: 8 on bows now, barely better than a heavy crossbow. Not that 10P is bad, by any means. And someone definitely needs to stat up a troll archer/climber assassin.

Stahlseele

Oct 25 2009, 08:23 PM

I'd circumvent that by specifically having my troll look for older bows that are still made from car suspensions and steel wire, instead of this newfangled shape shifting metal . . much too weak . .
But that one is still easy.
Look up the ultimate mundane climber built. high Strength in there allready, just give him bow skill at reasonable level and you are done.
By the way, just what is the explanation for that nerf anyway?
Aside from people bitching about it too much?

Glyph

Oct 25 2009, 09:31 PM

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 25 2009, 12:23 PM)

By the way, just what is the explanation for that nerf anyway?
Aside from people bitching about it too much?

That was pretty much it. SR4A had a lot of poorly thought-out rules changes. I mean, if you are going to nerf bows, then instead of setting an arbitrary cap on it, change it from, say, (Str Min +2) P to (Str Min/2 + 2) P, or something like that. That way, bows do less damage, but you don't wind up with a ruling that says, in effect, that future technology is incapable of making a bow that lets a troll use his full Strength. I don't think they needed the nerf, but if you're going to do it, do it in a way that makes sense.

I think the main thing was people comparing troll bow damage to assault cannon damage. Never mind that assault cannons also have an AP of -5, and that's before factoring in AV cannon rounds...

Karoline

Oct 25 2009, 10:01 PM

Sniper with Astral Hazing and some sort of long range ultrasound would put a real hurt on a mage, and be fairly effective overall regardless.

Stahlseele

Oct 25 2009, 10:06 PM

Why ultrasound?
Why not Radar?

Karoline

Oct 25 2009, 11:24 PM

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 25 2009, 05:06 PM)

Why ultrasound?
Why not Radar?

Radar would basically be long range ultrasound. Of course that could still be defeated with a silence spell.

Cthulhudreams

Oct 25 2009, 11:29 PM

You're clearly going to select both.

PirateChef

Oct 25 2009, 11:42 PM

I could see a true high end assassin being amused by this, then managing to kill the "winner" at the winners ceremony, on live television no less, without anyone ever seeing him. Maybe leaving a calling card behind so everyone knows who the "best" really is

3278

Oct 25 2009, 11:46 PM

QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 25 2009, 11:24 PM)

Radar would basically be long range ultrasound. Of course that could still be defeated with a silence spell.

Why would radar - which uses radio waves - be defeated by silence?

PirateChef

Oct 26 2009, 01:06 AM

QUOTE (3278 @ Oct 25 2009, 06:46 PM)

Why would radar - which uses radio waves - be defeated by silence?

One could argue that radio waves are just a different type of sound waves, and thus would be negated by silence. Though technically that is incorrect, and radio waves are much closer to light, so maybe they could be canceled out by improved invisibilty?

3278

Oct 26 2009, 01:36 AM

QUOTE (PirateChef @ Oct 26 2009, 01:06 AM)

One could argue that radio waves are just a different type of sound waves, and thus would be negated by silence. Though technically that is incorrect...

It's not just technically incorrect, it's plainly and simply completely false. [edit: That sounded dickish. Sorry! Not intended to.] Sound is [perceived] pressure waves in a medium, whereas radio is electromagnetic radiation. The two are almost wholly dissimilar.

QUOTE (PirateChef @ Oct 26 2009, 01:06 AM)

...and radio waves are much closer to light, so maybe they could be canceled out by improved invisibilty?

This is one of those issues which is most definitely arguable. Improved Invisibility allows both visible light and infrared radiation to pass through the subject of the spell [and since it prevents the perceiver from observing the heat given off by the subject, it must also somehow prevent infrared radiation from leaving the subject, suggesting even flashlights might be prevented from shining away from the subject...somehow], but together those frequencies of electromagnetic radiation make up a small fraction of the total spectrum, from about 1 micrometer to 100 micrometers [assuming Improved Invisibility effects even FIR]. Would the spell also effect radio waves, from 1 millimeter to 100,000 kilometers? [Or 10mm to 100mm, assuming Shadowrun radar uses roughly the same frequencies modern radar does.]

This is one for the GM.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Oct 26 2009, 02:26 AM

QUOTE (PirateChef @ Oct 25 2009, 07:06 PM)

One could argue that radio waves are just a different type of sound waves, and thus would be negated by silence. Though technically that is incorrect, and radio waves are much closer to light, so maybe they could be canceled out by improved invisibilty?

Wow... Just... Wow...
Wrong on so many levels...

Keep the Faith

PirateChef

Oct 26 2009, 02:51 AM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 25 2009, 09:26 PM)

Wow... Just... Wow...
Wrong on so many levels...

Keep the Faith

Thanks for your valuable input.

While I do realize that radio waves are in fact part of the EM spectrum, if you asked the average joe he would probably tell you that radio waves are a type of sound wave. That is why I stated that was incorrect.

However, the improved invisibility thing may have merit the more I think about it. Perhaps a modified version to allow all EM radiation to pass through a subject?

3278

Oct 26 2009, 02:54 AM

QUOTE (PirateChef @ Oct 26 2009, 03:51 AM)

...if you asked the average joe he would probably tell you that radio waves are a type of sound wave.

I wonder if that's really true. Many people conflate sonar with radar - not helped by all those times people talk about "bat radar," an idea so monumentally insane it bears consideration just because of the enormity of the madness thus implied - but I wonder how many people - average joe people - would conflate sound and radio waves. Probably not information I could possess without what would be a very strange bit of polling, but interesting, nevertheless.

QUOTE (PirateChef @ Oct 26 2009, 03:51 AM)

However, the improved invisibility thing may have merit the more I think about it. Perhaps a modified version to allow all EM radiation to pass through a subject?

I've been thinking about it since your first post. If I were to allow such a thing, it would bear careful scrutiny of the characteristics of various energy levels and wavelengths; I would probably only allow a certain slice of the EM spectrum to be manipulated in this way, and would certainly raise the drain levels accordingly.

I'd also think a whole lot about the ramifications. Much like spirits and Concealment, something that can cause all electromagnetic radiation - or even just a significant portion of it - to pass through a solid object is going to have massive effects on things like, say, military tactics. [As has, I believe, been dealt with in previous Shadowrun projects; seems to me part of the Tir/California conflict involved spirits using Concealment to baffle ground radar.]

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Oct 26 2009, 03:03 AM

QUOTE (PirateChef @ Oct 25 2009, 08:51 PM)

Thanks for your valuable input.

While I do realize that radio waves are in fact part of the EM spectrum, if you asked the average joe he would probably tell you that radio waves are a type of sound wave. That is why I stated that was incorrect.

However, the improved invisibility thing may have merit the more I think about it. Perhaps a modified version to allow all EM radiation to pass through a subject?

Which is a sad state of affairs for our educational system, don't you think?

Keep the Faith

PirateChef

Oct 26 2009, 03:27 AM

I don't know. I mean, how does it affect Joe Average? Why should he know the difference?

3278

Oct 26 2009, 03:45 AM

QUOTE (PirateChef @ Oct 26 2009, 03:27 AM)

I don't know. I mean, how does it affect Joe Average? Why should he know the difference?

Very few pieces of information exist in a vacuum. The knowledge of how sound and electromagnetic radiation work, and the ways in which they are different, possess countless uses beyond knowing whether or not Silence spells would stop radar from working. I, for one, strongly believe the world would receive immense benefit if "average people" were given scientific educations capable of differentiating between sound and electromagnetic radiation. The better everyone understands basic scientific principles, the more able we are as a society to make intelligent, informed decisions about how, when, and why we manipulate the universe around us. Ignorance benefits no one.

Oh: plus, you can figure out how far away storms are! And figure out why your computer speakers keep popping whenever lightning strikes. And understand the cop can still figure out how fast you're going even if it's really loud outside. I could list specific bullshit for days, but really, I think information is its own reward, for everyone.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Oct 27 2009, 12:03 AM

QUOTE (PirateChef @ Oct 25 2009, 08:27 PM)

I don't know. I mean, how does it affect Joe Average? Why should he know the difference?

Why shoud he not know?
And I have to agree with 3278's POst above as well...

Keep the Faith

AKWeaponsSpecialist

Oct 27 2009, 01:11 AM

So, um, isn't this supposed to be about making an assassin? Is it 400 BP? Karmagen? Priority? Is it the 10000 "Superhuman Prime Runner" setup?

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Oct 27 2009, 01:49 AM

QUOTE (AKWeaponsSpecialist @ Oct 26 2009, 07:11 PM)

So, um, isn't this supposed to be about making an assassin? Is it 400 BP? Karmagen? Priority? Is it the 10000 "Superhuman Prime Runner" setup?

These questions are answered above in previous posts...

Keep the Faith

Drraagh

Oct 27 2009, 09:38 AM

I'd say probably 400 BP would be a start, and then depending on turnout, add a ringer or two. And this is any type of assassin you want, heck I can just imagine how a poisoning type would work.

StealthSigma

Oct 27 2009, 02:13 PM

High Intuition + High Agility + Perception + Infiltration + Longarms.

Chameleon Suit + Sniper Rifle + Shotgun

A high Knowledge Skill in Sniper Tactics will give them an advantage in picking out likely sniper spots.

This is ludicrously easy to do within 400BP.

It all boils down to who can stay hidden the best while being able to spot and quickly eliminate the opposition....

The truth is that any formally educated snipers will be some of the toughest opponents. At least in US Army training snipers are masters at stealth. Consider this, to pass training they have to complete "The Stalk". This is arguably one of the most difficult bits of publicly known US military training. The Stalk requires the sniper to be unnoticed and "take two shots" at an instructor. The sniper starts at 1000m and must move to within 150m to take the first shot, a fired blank as well as IDing something on the instructor. The student then needs to move to a 2nd position for a 2nd shot. It's a pass or fail exercise and being spotted or located is an instant fail. Not only do the target instructors have vision tools to try to spot the student, but there are also instructors roaming the field looking for the student. This training exercise is far tougher than any real world condition, since shots will usually be taken at distances over 600m.

So the truth is that anyone who wasn't a trained sniper would be unlikely to win the tournament. Magic of course throws this all out of balance, then again it's questionable, I think to the usage, since all the detect spells give a relative position rather than exact, and detect enemies is only going to help when the concealed sniper is about to take a shot.

Ravor

Oct 27 2009, 02:23 PM

I have to disagree about Detect Enemies, it should kick in at the moment when the sniper decides to start lining his shot up so it isn't nearly as useless as it would first appear. At the very least it woudl prevent the sniper from taking his time and being able to aim.

StealthSigma

Oct 27 2009, 03:18 PM

QUOTE (Ravor @ Oct 27 2009, 10:23 AM)

I have to disagree about Detect Enemies, it should kick in at the moment when the sniper decides to start lining his shot up so it isn't nearly as useless as it would first appear. At the very least it woudl prevent the sniper from taking his time and being able to aim.

Not really, if you think about how a true sniper lines up a shot. They only shoot when all the conditions are right. In other words, a sniper can be lining up a shot on you, but unless environmental conditions are favorably, they won't take a shot. Regardless, by the wording of the spell, it would only give you the approximate location of the sniper. That's it. If the sniper is going to wait for someone to move into position that is favorable to taking a shot before even attempt to take a shot.

Example, the sniper is waiting for someone to cross into a large open field. Your mage with detect enemies is walking inside a building with open windows. The sniper will probably watch you, but isn't interested in taking a shot on you unless you become aggressive to him because you're in a location he isn't likely to get a guaranteed kill. The sniper is obviously an enemy, but he isn't hostile. So would detect enemies trigger? If it doesn't that means that detect enemies will trigger when you're in a weak position, possibly wide open, so how does knowing that someone is in a general location going to help you unless you have some spells you can quickly cast to save yourself?

Ravor

Oct 27 2009, 03:32 PM

I would argue that the sniper counts as "Hostile" for the purposes of the spell as he is laying in wait, his intention is to kill his target(s) of which you happen to be since you are also in the game. And yeah, "waiting until condictions are right" is exactly why the spell would work.

Of course I'm assuming that "the players" are given at least some basic information on each other beforehand, now if the sniper honestly didn't at least have a basic idea of who he was going to be aiming at then the spell probably wouldn't ping him until he noticed you and decided to line up the shot before taking it.

StealthSigma

Oct 27 2009, 04:00 PM

QUOTE (Ravor @ Oct 27 2009, 11:32 AM)

I would argue that the sniper counts as "Hostile" for the purposes of the spell as he is laying in wait, his intention is to kill his target(s) of which you happen to be since you are also in the game. And yeah, "waiting until condictions are right" is exactly why the spell would work.

Of course I'm assuming that "the players" are given at least some basic information on each other beforehand, now if the sniper honestly didn't at least have a basic idea of who he was going to be aiming at then the spell probably wouldn't ping him until he noticed you and decided to line up the shot before taking it.

The way I look at it, you have X number of individuals in an arena that is likely a cityscape. The sniper knows he has X enemies, he doesn't know what order he will encounter them nor does he necessarily care. He'll pick his spot to make his first shot from, plus others should he miss killing the person with one shot. Likewise, since survival is the goal, the sniper won't take any shots where he may miss unless his life is directly threatened. Haphazardly taking shots will only reveal his location. As I stated before, this translates to hostility only when you're in a situation where he is likely to take a shot. This sniper will have all the time in the world compared to a sniper that is tasked with taking out a certain target within a certain time frame.

The sniper will only be hostile to you when you're in the open or other favorable shot locations, or you are actively targeting/hunting him.

That's the way I would rule as a GM, mostly because I think it's silly that one spell completely destroys -any- possibility of surprise. Especially in a PvP setting.

Ravor

Oct 27 2009, 04:16 PM

Well I have to disagree given your setup because the sniper is planning on killing someone and he knows that everyone in the area will be a target so the spell should ping the moment he sees the Mage. Now IF the sniper believed that there were bystanders and only wanted to kill players then the spell should only ping when he decided that the Mage was a player.

Basically I don't agree that Detect Enemies would normally destory any possiblity of suprise, merely that in the contest as you lay out it logically defeats your "Sniper always wins."