Dumpshock Forums > The Tournament Request

StealthSigma

Oct 27 2009, 05:21 PM

QUOTE (Ravor @ Oct 27 2009, 12:16 PM)

Well I have to disagree given your setup because the sniper is planning on killing someone and he knows that everyone in the area will be a target so the spell should ping the moment he sees the Mage. Now IF the sniper believed that there were bystanders and only wanted to kill players then the spell should only ping when he decided that the Mage was a player.

Basically I don't agree that Detect Enemies would normally destory any possiblity of suprise, merely that in the contest as you lay out it logically defeats your "Sniper always wins."

I see my point isn't coming across. I'm saying a sniper shouldn't register as a hostile (according to the spell) until the sniper decides he is going to take a shot at that character. The sniper simply watching you to see if you enter an area where he is waiting for prey isn't committing any hostile actions. He'll be using binocs or other visual enhancers to track you, not the scope on his rifle. Using the scope gives him terrible tunnel vision and he may miss other things of importance.

My point is that Detect Enemies should trigger once the sniper decides he's going to shoot you, not before, not after. Your simple presence in his line of fire is not just cause for him to take a shot at you. You'll probably get about a 10s warning, IMO, to react to the indicator. However if you take actions that make him decide not to take a shot, he's going to slink away not to bother with you, meaning he's no longer hostile and would drop off the sense.

Warlordtheft

Oct 27 2009, 05:43 PM

Wouldn't detect guns also work?? (unless he used a bow!!)

3278

Oct 27 2009, 05:56 PM

This issue is specifically addressed in the spell description.

QUOTE (SR4a, Page 206)

Detect Enemies
The subject can detect living targets within range who have hostile intentions toward him. The spell does not detect traps (since they are not alive), nor can it detect someone about to shoot into a crowd at random (the hostility is not directed at the subject of the spell). The spell can detect targets preparing an ambush or other surprise attack.

StealthSigma

Oct 27 2009, 06:20 PM

QUOTE (3278 @ Oct 27 2009, 01:56 PM)

This issue is specifically addressed in the spell description.

Sort of. The issue is what denotes a hostile intention.

Is being placed in an arena with 31 other people who can only win by killing you count as hostile intentions?
Is the sniper that is watching you without any intent to attack or kill you right now, but may be in the near future a hostile intention.

The point is that in such a PvP setting of "assassins" it would be a serious of who can trick/trap/get the upper hand on who. Detect enemy ultimately destroys this, which is almost why I would say that the spell should be removed in such a scenario. It's too powerful for PvP play. Everyone is your enemy (technically), but everyone would be stupid to try to kill you just because they see you. I feel that detect enemies would trigger as soon as the enemy decides to attack you. Some characters (melee) would have to actively stalk you (which I feel would set off detect enemies), but someone waiting in shadows for you to walk within 5 ft isn't going to make a move unless you come that close, meaning that I would say that you wouldn't detect them 50 ft out unless you were walking in a fashion that would lead you close to them. Likewise, simply walking in an area a sniper is watching is not enough to draw a hostile reaction, once the sniper decides to take the shot, then detect enemies should trigger giving you a few seconds to react while the sniper takes aim.

Namely, Shadowrun rules aren't setup for PvP, yet this is precisely what this scenario is designed to be. When you have a spell that everyone must absolutely have, there's a problem.

Stahlseele

Oct 27 2009, 06:34 PM

QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Oct 27 2009, 06:43 PM)

Wouldn't detect guns also work?? (unless he used a bow!!)

Other Question:
Would "Detect: Weapon" be possible?

Drraagh

Oct 27 2009, 09:24 PM

I personally would say that Detect Enemy spell would be like "I'm going to shoot /this guy/" as long as they were in range of the spell, but not on "I'll shoot the first person that gets in my sights", until they decide to pull the trigger on you. Which is exactly what it says in the spell. So, if they are thinking 'I'll shoot one of these 10 people', it's not /directly/ at you, but if they see you and then say 'That's one, I'll shoot him'. Then the spell pings.

Detect Weapon...Great for bouncers at a club, for example, to see if you're packing a weapon. But exactly what is a weapon? A gun, a sword, sure. But if I have a limp and carry a walking stick, it isn't a weapon until the moment I plan to hit someone with it. At least in my opinion.

And if people are having this much problem with magic, let's just ban it from the competition?

Adn if 400 BP is too easy, then we can cut it down. I was just looking for different options and different ideas to see how people think it played out. I mean, there are different types of assassins beyond snipers and mage killers from a distance. Besides, imagine if that's all this tourney was, everyone sitting in sniping positions; not very interesting. It'd be like watching two turtles on a cross country race.... "We're on day fifteen and they are passing the first mile marker. Stay tuned for more exciting race updates."

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Oct 28 2009, 01:26 AM

QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Oct 27 2009, 11:21 AM)

I see my point isn't coming across. I'm saying a sniper shouldn't register as a hostile (according to the spell) until the sniper decides he is going to take a shot at that character. The sniper simply watching you to see if you enter an area where he is waiting for prey isn't committing any hostile actions. He'll be using binocs or other visual enhancers to track you, not the scope on his rifle. Using the scope gives him terrible tunnel vision and he may miss other things of importance.

My point is that Detect Enemies should trigger once the sniper decides he's going to shoot you, not before, not after. Your simple presence in his line of fire is not just cause for him to take a shot at you. You'll probably get about a 10s warning, IMO, to react to the indicator. However if you take actions that make him decide not to take a shot, he's going to slink away not to bother with you, meaning he's no longer hostile and would drop off the sense.

The problem with the Detect Enemy Spell is its area effect... a competent sniper will NEVER be within the spells area of effect, Ever... he will always be outside of this range, just as a best practice...

Keep the Faith

AKWeaponsSpecialist

Oct 28 2009, 02:28 AM

So would a mage with thermal dampening armor, levitate, silence, improved invisibility, deflect, and manabolt be a cheap entry? >.> <.<

CanadianWolverine

Oct 28 2009, 06:17 AM

Just curious, do the assassins have to know their target is in fact another assassin? Might it be possible the participants in The Tournament don't actually know they just got entered into a contest of life and death, they just thought they were entering a particular location to scout a potential target but now the way they came in is no longer a point of exit ... and neither is the other locations they thought could be exits.

Here are some ideas for types of assassins:
- Social Function Assassin, specialized in manipulation and disguise, kills by contact poisons/toxins causing bodily functions to have fatal conditions or manufacturing accidents when they convince the target to be vulnerable.
- Sniper Assassin, that one has been pretty well covered.
- Proxy Assassin, specialized in magic and/or social skills that convinces others, possibly even the target, by influence or illusion to do the dirty work for them while over looking them.
- Heavy Assassin, basicly insists on blowing everything a mile high to do the target in. Gotta nuke it from orbit to be sure, am I right? Any number of ways to accomplish that.
- Maguyver Gadget Assassin, specializes in all things tech that make a deadly trap, especially out of common items.
- Martial Arts Assassin, insists on looking as innocent as possible or using stealth to get in melee range then going all forbidden kung fu if they don't snap you neck right off the bat.
- Political Character Assassin, doesn't so much kill anyone as just make them wish they were dead because its hard to go on when everyone knows or thinks they know every little dirty secret about you, true or not.

Not sure if any of that helps, but there ya go, and best of luck with your Assassin Tourney Ghetto Wars.

Cthulhudreams

Oct 28 2009, 07:07 AM

Assuming you'd play the examples in the book, you want the spell 'detect life' because that straight up beats most of the masking and invisibility spells.

Ravor

Oct 28 2009, 07:16 AM

Especially if you already know that everyone in said arena is a target... Make sure you take the "exended area" version.

Drraagh

Oct 28 2009, 08:04 PM

The problem with assuming everyone in the area is a target is this will be taking place in a populated area. Not to mention depending on how literal you are with 'Detect Life', you'ld be detecting plant life, animals, insects....

StealthSigma

Oct 28 2009, 08:59 PM

QUOTE (Drraagh @ Oct 28 2009, 04:04 PM)

The problem with assuming everyone in the area is a target is this will be taking place in a populated area. Not to mention depending on how literal you are with 'Detect Life', you'ld be detecting plant life, animals, insects....

I'm suddenly reminded of one of those Zombie films where people were on the roof of a mall, and this dude was on the roof of his gun shop.

They would play a game where they would ID zombies that looked like celebrities (maybe they were those celebrities) and the other side would try to find and kill that zombie.

Glyph

Oct 31 2009, 09:44 PM

QUOTE (Drraagh @ Oct 27 2009, 01:24 PM)

I was just looking for different options and different ideas to see how people think it played out. I mean, there are different types of assassins beyond snipers and mage killers from a distance. Besides, imagine if that's all this tourney was, everyone sitting in sniping positions; not very interesting. It'd be like watching two turtles on a cross country race.... "We're on day fifteen and they are passing the first mile marker. Stay tuned for more exciting race updates."

Exactly. 20 guys with sniper rifles isn't exciting - you want to see a bunch of James Bond style assassins duking it out, with monofilament yo-yo's, high explosives, adepts with lethal playing cards a la Bullseye, and all that.

Here's another contribution. Top Wire, exotic metatype aside, was the quintessential assassin; the rest won't be so optimized. This is a tried-but-true concept, the big game hunter who hunts "the most dangerous game" sometimes. He is the type who would see the competition as a chance to get some recognition and fame.

[ Spoiler ]

Tactics:
The Huntsman's strengths are in stalking his prey, and he is more dangerous at ranged than close combat. His weaknesses are that his tactics work better in one-on-one situations, and that none of his guns are silenced.

Traul

Oct 31 2009, 09:56 PM

Do you really intend on playing that in Seattle streets? I can hardly see city officials allowing a shootout in their city. Even the corps are civilized enough to play the Desert Wars in the desert. I would rather see that in an enclosed area. Could be a building or a block in the barrens bought by the corp.

P.S.: Playing inside is great if you want to avoid snipers. Short lines of sight and no higher grounds.

Drraagh

Oct 31 2009, 11:02 PM

QUOTE (Traul @ Oct 31 2009, 04:56 PM)

Do you really intend on playing that in Seattle streets? I can hardly see city officials allowing a shootout in their city. Even the corps are civilized enough to play the Desert Wars in the desert. I would rather see that in an enclosed area. Could be a building or a block in the barrens bought by the corp.

P.S.: Playing inside is great if you want to avoid snipers. Short lines of sight and no higher grounds.

Who's to say this is the corps doing this? But yeah, there are all sorts of options for stuff like that.

Whipstitch

Nov 2 2009, 07:13 AM

I can't help but think there should be some room for a small drone rigger/combat hacker in this kind of competition, but the logistics and amount of equipment people are allowed to bring to bear would be a real question. It just seems like it should be such a viable archetype that it needs to be included, but it's an odd venue for such a skill set, even if an explosive laden minidrone has some crowd pleasing appeal. One should definitely make it in, but if I was the show's producers I'd be a bit worried that the guy just might haul off and run over the rest of the talent with a stolen bus.

Drraagh

Nov 2 2009, 10:22 PM

QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Nov 2 2009, 03:13 AM)

One should definitely make it in, but if I was the show's producers I'd be a bit worried that the guy just might haul off and run over the rest of the talent with a stolen bus.

If they were to try and run over the others with a stolen bus, the others can try and steal other vehicles, blow it up, whatever. I mean, a couple called shots to the tires or a few high powered explosives or the like.

Also, if you're pairing a rigger in a stolen bus against a sniper, say, who has the advantage? The bus can't turn very easily, but it is fast and secure. The best it could do to harm a sniper is run through the building. Sniper could shoot the driver, engine, gas tank, etc, but will need to be packing high powered armor.

Whipstitch

Nov 2 2009, 11:24 PM

It was mostly a jest.

Still, consider that such a character is dangerous in part because he makes use of somewhat expendable assets. Unless you're capable of locating him or countering him at a technical level it's a pretty asymmetrical encounter, particularly due to the rise of AR as opposed to hotsim being de rigueur. On the other hand, what he's capable of doing depends a lot on whatever happens to be in the environment. That's part of why I think of the character as perhaps being a poor fit for the competition. Unless, of course, the objective was to take him out while surviving the attentions of your fellow competitors.

Sponge

Nov 2 2009, 11:29 PM

QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Nov 2 2009, 06:24 PM)

Unless, of course, the objective was to take him out while surviving the attentions of your fellow competitors.

Or the hacker/rigger is not actually on site and is just one of the hazards (planned or otherwise) to the other competitors...

GM Lich

Nov 3 2009, 12:27 AM

I'm planning to do something similar expect ares managed to make an improved version of their game miracle shooter. Now you can "scan" weapons and use them n the game's ar. Naturally the game is free but it costes money to scan weapons. For whatever reasons ares weapons performe better. The idea is ares is having a beta testing of the pvp section of the game now that may be used for lone star training and other things (they have multi plans). Basically 1/3 will be corporate brats with skill softs. 1/3 will be runners, and the last 1/3 will be hackers looking for the lolz.

The Jake

Dec 2 2009, 02:05 AM

Bump. Someone should make a Jason Bourne style character for this.

- J.