IIRC, if the state doesn't allow gambling at all it doesn't have to allow tribal casinos. But if they have a lottery etc... I think the casino has to be on real reservation land, not land just owned by the tribe unless an agreement with the state is worked out. Which means if you are off in the middle of nowhere it might be hard to do the casino bit.

The cool think you can do as a tribe is just tell your vendors, people who get attacked in the casino parking lot and gamblers who you decide you don't want to pay to just go away. The sovereignty bit means they have to pursue it in the tribal courts. Which can kind of suck if the people who decided to not pay you are the people who appoint the tribal judges... (And yes, this happens.)

It's also interesting if the tribe declares that all official business has to be done in the tribal language. Which isn't written down and the tribe lies to researchers who try to learn it... (and this is also true, but it's not the same tribe as above.)

True, but the local tribes have learned that payback tends to be bloody and quick in this part of the country so actual attacks tend to be rare provided that you don't break "the rules".

For those who doubt any of his claims, check out his listed location. I went to NMT for graduate school and can tell you that living in New Mexico was an educational experience. However, one may want to also see how the tribes in Cali operate.

BlueMax

I can understand your position, sounds a lot like my brother, but not Ryan's. I love him dearly like a brother, but that boy can't keep a job for more than a month, he has a lot of potential, just won't use it. He always has grand ideas and plans, with which he does absolutely nothing. The worst part is that he has a family, wife and daughter. The bank foreclosed on his house last year because he wasn't working and couldn't pay the mortgage, and no, he didn't have a sub-prime, variable rate mortgage (he actually had a really good deal), he just wasn't paying it. They lived in my house for a few months, then Jerry moved to Grove (where he grew up) and gave Ryan his house, then told him that he was through, that it was time for Ryan to sink or swim.

As for the casinos, I've noticed that some of the states have an issue with it, the thing is, I don't think they really have any say in the matter. Things may have changed, but, it used to be they had no control over the reservations, only the Feds had a say on the rezes, and the Feds say gambling is legal, the states could make things difficult for them, but they couldn't stop them. I used to work in the casinos in Cripple Creek, and the topic was frequently discussed, we were usually envious of their autonomy. If the state's now have control over the rezes nobody told me about it. I did read 10 or so years ago about a reservation building a casino against the state's wishes, at which point to state plowed up the state maintained road that led to where they built it. I always thought that was a really dick thing to do. The reservation borrowed more money and linked their part of that road across the rez to a federal highway. When I heard they got one up on their state I laughed my ass off. Wish I could remember where that happened.

Aye, that sounds alot like my brother-in-law, down to the family (one daughter and one more on the way) but just thinking about him makes my teeth itch and despite my ex's best efforts I'm still in too good of a mood from talking to a certain pretty young lady to risk ruining it by dwelling on him.


If I remember correctly, although the Indians were allowed to have "electronic gaming" they weren't allowed to build actual casinos or play cards, ect, something about "gambling" although legal being defined by the state. Meh, although I'm a fence sitter when it comes to gaming in general I'm not a fan of people getting to play by different rules just because of their bloodline.

My feeling is that the tribes got screwed for a long time, and nobody is forcing people to play there. But the whole "sovereignty" bit gets abused.

True, very good point, the rezes were probably the worst thing that could have happened to the tribes. Hell, maybe even forced assemation might have been better in the long run.

I'm not sure about that one, you may be right. I know Cripple Creek, Blackhawk, and, uh, that other gaming town in Colorado (drawing a blank) all lobbied to have Colorado relax the restrictions there from limited gaiming ($5 bets) to full gaming like Vegas and won. I know at least one of those casino towns in on a reservation.


It's not as bad as it used to be. At one time all an indian had to do was get to the rez and he was safe (at least until the Feds arrived), and the reservation cops wouldn't usually cooperate with the local LEOs at all. These days they're usually more reasonable, but not always. I think they got tired of the Feds coming down on them like a ton of bricks, FBI started getting really fed up with playing referee between them like cops at a domestic dispute call.


There are some issues with forced assimilation, but yeah, in the really long run it usually works out better, at least here in the U.S. because we'll let them keep their culture. On the other hand, don't forget the old government schools that tried that here way back when, you still hear the occasional horror stories from old indians about being punished for speaking thier tribal language in school, of course, the kids still lived on the reservation, so yeah, assimilation not gonna work in that case anyway. Not that I disagree with making them speak english in school, they have to be prepared to go out into 'the world' after all, just, some of the schools went WAY overboard with the punishment.

You know, I was thinking, sometimes when I hear indians talking about succession (and I have heard it), I wonder what the Navajo wind-talkers from WWII would have to say about it, nothing good I suspect. Those poor bastards went through hell for this country and were damn proud of the U.S.

Aye, our current governer would literally rather his head explode then relax any gambling restrictions, although I've never looked into it I get the distict impression that it's personal somehow.

True, but my grandfather used to talk about the punishments he got for merely being left handed so the problem was more widespread than merely targeting the tribes.

I've noticed that in several instances, and it's not just religious or morality issues. While I don't exactly agree with that sort of thing, I do understand it, despite the huge tax windfalls that come with it. There are quite a few social issues that come with gambling in communities that aren't prepared for it. Increases in drug use and gambling addiction (I know a guy who lost his house and wife because he couldn't stay out of the casinos) are only the tip of the iceberg. I know I left Cripple Creek because it (like Vegas) is the type of place where people sometimes go specifically to commit suicide. I saw the aftermath of that in Cripple Creek, twice. It's a good thing I have a strong stomach, both hotel rooms had to be stripped to the concrete floors and studs in the walls and completely rebuilt, drywall and all. Did you know that the gases given off by decaying human blood are toxic? I didn't until I lived in Cripple Creek. Then, of course, there is the mafia, though they don't always get it their way. I heard stories about some mafiosos coming to Cripple Creek to muscle in right after the first casinos opened in the late 70s early 80s (not sure exactly when they opened). According to the story (can't verify it, could just be 'warning propaganda', but knowing the people there I'm not sure I want to discount it either), one of them left, taking the pieces of his friends with him.

So yeah, I don't entirely disagree with your governor either.



Yeah, that's true, there's always some ignorant asshole looking to persecute anyone who is even slightly different. Makes them feel better about their own pathetic existence.

Sure the reservations are soverign nations BUt if they abuse things too far (a) the Federal government can step in, the locals don't want this and ask yourself how far are they going to go to support one of their own who's been neough of a creep to possiblyy have hteir whole system overturned and examined?
(b) The Res can open anythnig they want BUT if the states doesn't want to have a casino they can close the border-"Surechief you can have black jack tables, but we aren't letting anyone into the reservation." There was a threat of that when they first wanted to open one in Connecticut, the state and then state dept said that if the indians forced the issue of hteir soverignty the American governments owud respect that to the point of setting up border crossings at the entrances to the res, forcing the use of passports and visa's, the indians decided to play nice.

Guys we should try to keep this on SR before a mod shuts it down.

I think the break up of the US was needed to creat a void for the mega corps to fill. a full powered USA was going to be able to bitch smack any corp that stepped out of line in RL. The shiawase decidsion would really result in the government taxing the corp for added security bonding to keep doing business. But a much weaker UCAS could not stand up to the corps as well.

BUT the above examples do play into the NAN, ulitmately they are governments. with the STC existing just to play games and not do anything. Do I think SR would work if the USA and canada hadn't Balkaniszed- yup, and clearly the designers agreed that they over did it in 1989 since the time line has removed some of the smalled, dumber nations(Ute, Tshimian (sp))

Similarly the break away of the CAS while great for the wack-a-dos who declared they do not 'accept hte military outcome of 1865" always seemed highly unlikely and in our campaign world we never had it as an armed/hostile border but a more open border like modern, RL US/Canadian border/relations

I think I remember SoNA saying something on that, that it was the CAS-Aztlan border that was much more heavily defended.

Sure it would work, just like it would work if Japan and Japanese culture were simply no longer there. Both scenarios were simply in vogue back then, and changes in geography can't be "adjusted" like the new matrix.

My take on the whole discussion is that the NAN's backstory makes no sense, because there are simply not enough Indians for ten states with not just Natives as a ruling elite, but as the major part of the population. But it does not really matter, the NAN are there so we should embrace the adventure opportunities this gives us instead of lamenting about how people even got this idea.

Here, Here...

Keep the Faith

The indian population is low when looking at 'tribes" in the RL US and not ocunting white people with indian blood but I've often wondered about hispanics- most of them clearly draw from Native americans- Aztecs, Olmecs, Toltecs and after years of being illegal aliens they might flock to the offer of Mohak, Souix etc that and a powerful Aztlan would be a big draw to come home.

According to Wiki:

American Indian and Alaska Native
One race: 2.5 million are registered
In combination with one or more other races: 1.6 million are registered
1.37% of the US population

Figure here derived by subtracting figure for "One race (American Indian and Alaska Native)": 2,475,956, from figure for "Race alone or in combination with one or more other races (American Indian and Alaska Native)": 4,119,301, giving the result 1,643,345.


By contrast a rough calculation of the numbers from Shadowhelix:

Algonkian-Manitou Council: Population 5 million, 50% tribal
-> 2.5 million

Athabaskan Council : Population 2.5 million, 22% tribal
-> 0.55 million

Pueblo: 15.5 million, 66%
-> 10 million

Salish-Shidhe: 8.5 million, 85%
-> 7.2 million

Sioux: 6 million, no percentage given but I'll just assume 100 since IIRC they were not very friendly to Anglos
-> 6 million

TPA: 1.5 million, 100%
-> 1.5 million

Tsimshian: 1 million, 75%
-> 750.000

So around 28.5 million indians, seven times as many as currently alive...that makes Hugh Hefner look prudish (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Well, it's 2009 already. Clock's ticking. Folks better get busy breeding, if they wanna get their numbers up to quota by the time 2050-60-70 rolls around.

Ill start working on it, Critias. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) course gotta talk to the wife. see if she'll let me get a few more wives...maybe if I promise that she will always be wife #1 she'll go for it.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

*kanis catches coffee cup to the back of the head* um, the womans council says no...guess its gonna have to be up to those Orks to fill out the roster... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I hate to tell you this, but dividing the same women in different ways doesn't help. You just need to tell her about the 6 kids....

Did only 100% Indians count or didn't the NAN states welcome everyone with at least a bit of Indian blood in it?

Your confusion is not rational. She is a healthy female of breeding age [/Arnie]

Depends on which version of the story we are talking about Grinder, in some of the timelines yes in others no. However no matter how you look at it you've still got the culture problem, if the NAN's population was made up of white folk with a drop of indian blood then their culture shouldn't be much different then it was beforehand if at all.

Hell I even fall under the "one drop rule" but it'd be a very cold day in hell before I'd go under the knife to fit in with the "ruling class" as had been suggested previously in this thread.


*EDIT*


Not that I agree that the indians would be able to remain as the "ruling class" for more than a few years at most even in the best case sceniro.

I just want to stop this thread for a second:

Can we please get a round of applause for MODERN MEDICINE? - MODERN MEDICINE LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

STABBED 119 TIMES.
LIVED.

MODERN MEDICINE.
Thank you.

YAY... *Golf Clap*

Keep the Faith