All Masking does is make its astral form look mundane. It does not remove the fact that there is an astral form.

I never said it removed your aura or made it invisible. That was someone else. It does make you look completely mundane, and even specifically works on those dual-natured beings known as "spirits" if they have a means of making their materialized/inhabited form look real. Hell, it even works without that stipulation, but it's obvious they're a spirit due to the way their materialized form looks, not because their aura screams "hey guys, I'm dual-natured."

Your house rules not withstanding.

I am not talking about the aura. I am talking about Masking making the astral form mundane, yes, the astral form looks (or otherwise is perceived as) completely mundane. Masking doesn't explicitly make the fact that there is an astral form go away. Your aura doesn't scream "Hi guys I'm dual natured", neither does your astral form. But it doesn't disguise the fact that you have an astral form, you simply have an astral form that is mundane.

Your house rules not withstanding.

I'm pretty sure that you'd still have an Astral Form. It can change your aura and shape, but I don't think it can hide you astral percieving. Otherwise, it would be like the most important thing for any awakened character to get right away.

Well it pretty much is.

And that is different from anything I've said... how exactly? Where the hell did I ever say it makes them mundane as opposed to appear mundane? And whatever you blather out, got a page reference to actually back it up?

I can't wait to see how you guys try to rationalize Extended Masking, too, in order to match your delusional take on Masking. You know, the technique that extends Masking to your foci and spells to make them appear every bit as ordinary and mundane as your own aura despite their dual nature and astral forms. Because it's going to be a pretty damn useless technique if you guys are trying to say what I think you're trying to say. "Hey Bob, check out this absolutely ordinary looking sword here. It's got an astral form, but don't worry, it's still just an ordinary old sword. Same goes for this spell over here. Yeah, the spell I can obviously see because it has an astral form, but it looks mundane even though it doesn't. Oh shit Bob, I think my brain just exploded from Stupid."

I'm sorry for disagreeing. Let's quote some page numbers then. If I'm not allowed to do this under copyright, please tell me, and I'll paraphrase.



Unfortunately, I don't have 4a, and if this has changed, then you can present that and I'll stop arguing, but nowhere there does it say that you can remove the astral form. It can appear mundane, but it is still there. IIRC, a normal mundane wouldn't astrally project, would they?

Similarly, on Extended Masking (pg. 60, Street Magic), it disguises auras, but nowhere does it talk about disguising astral forms. Admittedly, this makes it significantly less useful, but that may be an oversight.

The way I see it, this shouldn't matter. Anyone who knows about the Infected and the HMHVV should know that Bandersnatchii, Ghouls and Loup-Garou are all dual natured, so an astral form shouldn't be that big of a deal unless it accompanies a large aura. (Which would be masked, no?)

Masking specifically includes astral forms in its description both in the first and last sentences. Extended Masking goes one step further and applies it to your spells and foci. And that very last setnence even tells you that you can't disguise your astral form to look like any astrally active creature without possessing astral projection. Which directly implies that the only thing you can do is mask it so that you look like you're not astrally activate. Extended Masking does the same thing. The rules assume common sense even though it's obviously a honking rare thing on these forums. If Masking and Extended Masking didn't have the ability to make you look completely mundane, it'd be all but useless for its intended purposes. Especially Extended Masking.

And before anyone even tries to go there, Extended Masking is exactly that; an extension of your Masking ability. It's not a completely separate power with completely separate rules. It just applies the rules for masking to your spells, foci, and similar phenomena. And all it takes is a proper Assensing test to see right past, which any competent opponent will be able to do with ease. Masking just helps when you're out in the every day world walking around. It doesn't do much of anything against any real threat unless you grossly outclass them.

The rules might assume common sense, but I find that with varying amounts of it in everyone, its not good to rely on having a base level of it.

RAW, without interpretation, you cannot mask your astral form to be that of a mundane. It just says that you must have astral projection to appear as another astrally active creature. Based on the rules as I can puzzle them out, (and as far as I know, which isn't nearly as much as some of you...) this means that essentially, masking your astral form to be mundane isn't helpful, as the mundane cannot have an astral form to begin with. This means that the form would still be there, despite appearing mundane. Making it extremely hard to justify having when you get seen in astral space. ("Oh ya Bob, I can just project astrally. That's all.")

In which case, a character capable of Masking needs to have Astral Projection in order to change her form. Apparently. Being able to float around in the Astral without a form (unless you lose the opposed test) seems a little bit too much, even for the be-all-end-all of Metamagic. (Or, thats what it looks like, if you use these forums as a sounding board.)

Masking, as I understand the rules, still works to hide you from astrally percieving mages, but not while you are astrally projecting. While you're astrally projecting, they wouldn't be able to see your body anyway, would they?

As an update on the character, I'm looking at a Ghoul or a Pixie. Thoughts? (Also, could you be an Ork Ghoul and have a minimum body of 8 for 55 BP?)

The last sentence simply places a limit on what you can do with Masking. It does not imply that all you can do is mask your astral form so that you look like you are not astrally active. All it implies is that having Astral Perception is not enough to make your Astral Form look like a spirit or another active creature.


That's too bad then. You generally wouldn't have an astral form without being Dual Natured, have Astral Sight/Perception or Astral Projection. Masking helps if you are not the sort that tries to bypass certain vision modifiers by turning on your Astral Perception all the time. It helps if you are not the sort that goes around with active weapon foci on, because weapon foci explicitly has astral forms.

Actually the rules do say you can mask it to look mundane. Read the very first sentence again: "A character who learns masking can change the appearance of her aura/astral form to do the following: look mundane..."

Everyone else in this thread is assuming more than what the rules are saying. It's the whole point of the technique. To mask your aura and astral form so that you can appear completely mundane or any other way you wish it to look. You can do the reverse with it, too, by making yourself look astrally active when you're not, though this apparently requires you to be able to astrally project. It's a very robust technique and it is a "must have" for any shadowrunning magician, dual-natured or not.

And yes, it would work while astrally projecting. However, like the Aura Masking version of the ability states, it's pointless since you don't have a meat body to back it up. So it would be obvious to anyone that you were masking your aura. But you can do it and they still have to make the appropriate rolls to gleam any information about your real aura/astral form. The same goes if you cast a spell; even if you look completely mundane on the astral, it's obvious you're anything but. Masking only goes so far; you still have to be able to back it up.

Nosferatu. 150 BP gets you the absolute most power in the game. Start the game with a Magic 4 (you can do up to 5), and in game just make sure to eat your "breakfast" and "dinner", and you'll have a Magic of 10-11. Make sure to be a Charisma caster (preferrably Mystic Adept), and take Improved Charisma and Improved Willpower, and you're rocking. It gets worse when your first 13 karma go towards Quickening, and you start with a Power Pact to get Aura Masking. You can easily start with a 4 Body, 4 Charisma, 4 Willpower, and 2-3 in everything else. This may not sound like much, but you have to keep in mind what you're up against here: humans (primarily).

The one I played was not built efficiently, and he still was terrifying. Just remember to use the powers you have available.

We are not disputing that. With Masking, your astral form does look mundane. But it doesn't detract from the fact other people can sense that you have an astral form.

Yes, you can make your aura look like another astrally active creature when not astrally active. But Masking doesn't give you an astral form.

Back it up with something other than your opinion and house rules. I've quoted the actual rules and they're pretty damn crystal clear.

Finally, roughly on topic. I'd prefer to avoid the Nosferatu, honestly, despite how pumped they look across the board. I'm feeling the Ghoul right now. Some Cybereyes and a Move-by-Wire system 2, and I'm golden as anything, as long as it isn't based in charisma.

And, I can take the Infertile Infected for an easy 10 points.

@Dr. Funkenstein: Do the rules say that you can make your astral form invisible? Next, do the rules say that a mundane character has an astral form? AFAIK, the answer to both is no, and thus, what you seem to be arguing cannot happen. You might be able to mask your form to appear mundane, but it doesn't just disappear. By the virtue of having it, you can't be entirely mundane. I'd suggest that you quote the actual rules that are so crystal clear that you don't actually need to be quoting them at all, and until you do, you should stop backing your argument up with your opinion and house rules. Stop being inflammatory, just as a bonus. We might be people too. If you don't have a point that can stand on its own, it probably won't help if you insult people to help it.

Back yours up with explicit rules that enable you to appear as if your astral form is not there first. Those are your opinion and house rules.

Those rules are the same ones that I am quoting, and they are damn crystal clear that they make your astral form appear mundane. Those rules do not state any further, they do not remove your astral form so that it does not appear to be there. There is an astral form, it appears mundane - that is all Masking says it does. Extended Masking does that to your spells and foci, the only focus that explicitly has an astral form is a weapon focus, spells are only stated to have an aura.

If you really want to go Ghoul, I suggest you stay blind. Go Assensing instead of Perception, or take Perception specialized in aural (? - hearing). Losing more Essence is not good.

Also, if you go Mystic Adept, you can do fun things like take Motion Sense, then stack on the Blind Fight martial arts maneuver, pretty much negating the penalty for "blind fighting."

All an astral form is a bright, vibrant aura. You can't miss most of them because of that fact. Masking lets you change that fact, as stated in the quote I've made numerous times. Aura Masking backs it up. Enhanced Masking backs it up. SR4A itself backs it up with quotes such as "like physical perception, a character using astral perception should not need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious (and since astral forms are bright and vibrant, this means that most astral forms are easily noticed)." Someone using Masking is one of those times where you need to make a test to spot their astral form if they have one.

Masking doesn't remove it. It hides it if you want it to. I've given numerous quotes. You've done nothing. If Masking worked anything like you guys are implying, it's worthless for its intended role, especially Extended Masking.

I glossed over most of this... debate, but I am inclined to side with toturi based off the little I have gleaned. Aura Masking/Masking/Extended Masking does not remove the presence of an astral form, it simply makes them look mundane. But, if you have a purely astral form, it'll be like tracking a falcon along a starry sky or noticing a mage in a ball of Silence with ultrasound.

I think the problem is that you guys have a weird idea of what an astral form actually is. It's just an unusually bright aura. And when there isn't a mundane object to go along with it (such as an astrally projecting mage), it's painfully obvious what it is despite that fact.

Much better worded way of saying what I was trying to. Thank you.

Ghouls are dual natured! I forgot about that. Assensing works wonders, in this case.

As a ghoul, without any BP spent other than for the quality, Your stats look like this.

Body 5/10
Agility 1/6
Reaction 3/8
Strength 4/9
Charisma 1/4
Intuition 1/6
Logic 1/5
Willpower 3/8
Magic 1/5
Essence 5
And initiative maxes out at 14.

This, for a human, would cost 110BP, but wouldn't change any maximums. On top of this, you have Dual Nature, Enhanced Senses and Natural Weapons, Losing your eyes, a mild allergy to sunlight and that metahuman flesh requirement.

So, where should I go from there? First blush, a magic user seems bad since I lose that point of essence, unless I can sneak it back with lots of initiation, in which case an Int+Wil tradition looks best. Alternately, Phys. Adept wouldn't be bad, but I'd need to focus pretty tight. However, I look pretty muck predisposed to a magic user anyway, since I can basically ignore my str and bod stats.

While it is true that Astral Forms are brighter than Auras, it does not necessarily follow that an astral form is just an unusually bright aura.

And Masking doesn't just affect auras. If you run up to someone who is masking their astral form and poke it, it's obvious that they're masking it. But you can't tell that just by looking unless you make the proper Assensing roll. You may know it's an astral form, but that's the only information you have and you gained that from basic deduction that had nothing to do with assensing. The exact same deduction that lets you know that a spirit without a realistic body using Aura Masking is masking their astral form. Just like if you cast a spell, it's obvious that you're Awakened despite masking your aura.

It's called Masking for a reason. Not Aura Invisibility or Astral Form Remover.

I think it's funny that we're talking around toturi and the others.

I'd suggest you go Magician or Mystic Adept. Go Unarmed for a melee skill, since you already have a neat natural weapon and cannot be disarmed. The reason I suggest that you go a Mage flavor of your choice is this: Nutrition. You won't ever have to worry about that pesky dietary requirement.