And it looks like a total rip-off. Admittedly, I'm relatively new to Shadowrun, so I would like to know how Dumpshock feels about the infected. Are there any that stand out as being min/maxer dreams? Are there any that are absolutely horrible? (Off the top of my head, Bandersnatch looks really bad. You've already got to pay 40BP as a Sasquatch, +30BP so that you can be a Bandersnatch, so that you can have a coat that changes colour, trading off for the need to eat sasquatchi every couple days. You still can't talk.)

Actually, I'd like comments on Sapient Critters too. Pixie looks like an awesome choice, even for 55BP. It's -3Bod, +2 Agi, +2 Rea, -3 Str, +2 Cha, +1 Int, +1 Log, and +2 Wil...

Especially considering that no one uses strength, You've only got to worry about having a body of 2.

I have 1 (one) infected player character in my current campaign. so far, she's finding the social negatives outweight the potential benefits. For one thing, in a 400pt campaign she found herself far below other starting characters. her gear sucked (and still does) and she's got issues with functioning in a lot of areas (try getting through the seattle core without a valid SIN).

overall, as long as everyone knows that there are some pretty big limitations to being one of the infected, it's not a too terribly bad addition to a game. but I wouldn't allow more than one of the Infected in any campaign.

Ghouls are probably the most open to taking advantage of from a powergaming point of view. Their low cost and impressive stat boosts are nice, and if you go adept or mystic adept you basically get astral perception for free. I, personally, love Dual Natured far more than standard astral perception once you get Masking. Your Dietary Requirements are easily handled by your lifestyle (they're simply roleplaying notes in practice) and the mild allergy to sunlight isn't that annoying. If you went mystic adept, a Sustaining Focus with Alleviate Allergy is enough to kill it if you absolutely must.

Goblins are pretty awesome as far as their power-to-cost ratio goes, but they don't sound at all fun to play which is probably why you don't see them very often as player characters.

If you're going for a mundane killing machine who's as anti-magic as they come, a Fomori Fomoraig changeling is downright scary. Arcane Arrester (race), Astral Hazing (changeling) and Magical Guard (infected) is a brutal combo. Give them a respirator and they're pretty set, though the sunlight allergy is a little annoying. It's even more terrifying because your minimum Body has a range of 9/14 (21) or so. It's almost worth it just for that fact alone.

All the other options are just ridiculously overpriced or utter shit.

dont forget the intentional overinflation of BP costs because the developers think that certain things should be rarer than others.

It's good to remember that the infected bonuses will work best with certain character types. I can't speak for 4th edition, but in 3rd, adepts could come out with some nice bonuses for becoming infected.

I wanna be a free spirit!

300 BP?!? D:

I can assure you that for the Infected, shapeshifters, drakes, and sapient critters rarity was not a factor in the BP formula.

It's probably an important distinction to make, so I'll state it openly: the Infected were not intended primarily as "these are some awesome new character options" as sapient critters and shapeshifters were, but rather as "the Infected are part of Shadowrun, we let you play ghouls before, there's no real reason not to let you play ghouls again, and if we're going to let you play ghouls we might as well let you play all the other Infected critters too." So, different approach there. This probably has something to do with the fact that your authors prefer the de-glamorized vampires seen in films like Near Dark and comics like 30 Days of Night.

There's nothing wrong with de-glamorized vampires. But there is something wrong with them being a full quarter of your starting BP.

I personally find it hilarious that almost all the Infected options come with a boosted Willpower. Despite, you know, being presented as feral beasts just barely able to contain their instincts.

I noticed that. I also found it funny how Wendigo, which are essentially presented as yeti, have a better base charisma than the ork it was built off of. (1/6 v 1/5)

Never read the Secrets of Power Trilogy, have ya?

Look, I make no bones about it: vampires have better stats, cool powers, and "free" Magic. Yes, they're bloody expensive.

Wheres that free magic come in? Vampires dont get magician for free, just a magic rating that they have to maintain, just to maintain powers. Unless youre playing other types of infected, you still gotta pay for those qualities to utilize that magic rating.

Wendigos create secret cannibal cults to gain their sustenance, so I could see them as being Charismatic in that sense.

Ghouls, goblins, and fomoraig are probably the best ones from a purely min-maxing point of view, although they are also pretty disgusting things to play.

Things like vampires start out weaker, but keep in mind, they get 80 points worth of Attribute bonuses, so the effective net cost for them is only 20 points, for some pretty cool abilities. It still takes more effort to create a good one, though.

Generally, infected characters have some pretty hefty disadvantages. Unless you are actually interested in playing out those disadvantages, min-maxing one of them is not really worth it.

80 points of attributes means crap if your archetype only uses 3 of them from the min-max point of view.

Except Masking does not allow you to make your astral form 'invisible'. You can look like a human, elf, or dragon, if you want, but you still are obviously perceiving to anyone looking (barring Infiltration).

Also the problem with wards does not just go away - Masking does not always work when you need it to for bypassing wards, & it generally takes quite some time to use it in that manner to begin.


And the funny thing is, out of all of those, only Vampires & Nosferatu are appropriately priced. A few other options are close to where they should be, but most are either far to expensive or far to cheap for what they get.

True, which is why I said that they still require more effort to create a decent character. But on the other hand, those bonuses are all +1 or +2 - they aren't like trolls, which get two +4 bonuses. So unless you regularly take a number of dump stats at 1, the 80 points don't really mess up any min-maxing. If it is not a stat you want to pump up, leave it at 2 or 3, while if it is, you can boost it higher. The problem with vampires is that they don't really work for cybered characters, and are behind the power curve as adepts or mages. Regeneration and mist form are potent abilities, though.

My last laptop death ate the notes and drafts for that particular book, but the formula took into account different costs for metatype, powers, raising and lowering attributes, and weakness; rounded up to the nearest 5 BP. If you don't think the math came out right, you're more than welcome to calculate it yourself for your home games, or submit a proposal to CGL the next time it comes around to write the damned thing.

So, if I was looking at say... a Pixie Face, where would you guys take it?

Similarly, Where would you take something like a Nosferatu or a Vampire? Or a ghoul or a Fomoriag or a Wendigo...

(the pixie face seemed like a good start, as I thought that would be a natural archetype. I have no idea where I would take a vampire or whatever.)

vampires can make disgusting gunbunny adepts, nosferatu get the biggest bonuses in the drain resisting stats for hermetic mages.

I'm a firm believer that a good Face has to not only be able to schmooze with the best of them, but that they have to be able to blend in to the background just as often. A pixie would be a horrible Face, just like pretty much any unusual racial option would be.

I've tried making a Vampire and even a Nosferatu a few times under SR4's rules and they all came out like shit. Totally worthless character design options. You might be able to create a very one dimensional character that's maybe slightly better at one thing than any other character could be, but all the negatives grossly outweigh any possible benefits. Shadowrun's design team puts way too much value on Regeneration and that's the main reason they suck so much.

Ghouls are definitely the most functional of the infected races, especially as a Human. They're only slightly more expensive than an Elf but give stat bonuses that make Trolls sound like sissies. Body +4, Reaction (!) +2, Strength +3, and Willpower +2 at the cost of Charisma -2 and Logic -1. Which will rarely if ever come up with most any character designed to take advantage of all those stat boosts (ie, combat junkies). I mean, how often do you need a non-Social Adept or Street Samurai with a Charisma of 4 or Logic of 5? Not very.


Hey, what do you know: Wrong again.

Masking gives you full control over the appearance of your aura. You can look completely mundane (which goes hand-in-hand with hiding your use of astral perception or dual nature by the very definition of the term), appear to be awesomely powerful or a meek magician by raising/lowering your perceived Magic rating, appear to be some other kind of creature, or even appear to be a fully astrally-active spirit when you're walking around as a mundane. The only limitation comes from the very last line of the description for Masking: "To disguise her astral form to look like a spirit or other astrally active creature, the character must be capable of astral projection."

Active magic use will still leave a signature, but that's not an aura let alone a masked one.

I'd argue it would be pretty weird to have a mundane aura walking around on the astral plane. You can disguise what you look like, but you can't disguise the fact that you're dual-natured or astrally perceiving.

You'd argue a lot of things, but you wouldn't necessarily be right. Extended Masking even goes a step further, applying to your foci and making them look completely mundane, too. Even if they're currently active (and thus dual natured).

It's further backed up by the spirit power Aura Masking from Street Magic: "This power functions as both the initiate powers Masking (p. 190, SR4) and Extended Masking (p. 60). The spirit uses its Edge in place of initiate grade. The spirit can also hide the use of any of its powers on itself within the masked aura. Only characters who pierce the masking can see the spirit’s use of spirit powers on itself. A spirit can always attempt to appear as another form of astral creature (even if not capable of astral projection), but masking itself as mundane would be entirely pointless unless it is joined to a physical body or has the realistic form power."

Note the very first and very last lines. It functions the same way as Masking and Extended Masking, and if the spirit's materialized form was realistic enough, such as with the two examples, it could look completely mundane despite being dual-natured. Because that's what Masking does.

Whatever your aura appears to be, I don't think you can change the fact that it is substantial on the astral plane when you're dual-natured. Admittedly, that's a personal opinion.

In this game, where we've been encouraged to go wild, we have potentially one drake and potentially one free spirit. A Pixie or any infected character won't make it harder.

I've got three things that appeal to me currently. The Pixie Face I mentioned above, though not my first choice, still seems like a good bet.

A Human Ghoul with some mods (including cybereyes...) is currently what I like most...

I'm also looking at the prohibitive Banshee, depending on if I can get the DM to modify it slightly, as an Elf face. I plan on asking for a dropped regeneration and mist form and seeing where that'd get me for BPs. If it doesn't drop more than 10, I'll be scrapping that.

Exactly. It does not disguise the fact that the character has an astral form. He can make his astral form look mundane.

All Masking does is make its astral form look mundane. It does not remove the fact that there is an astral form.

I never said it removed your aura or made it invisible. That was someone else. It does make you look completely mundane, and even specifically works on those dual-natured beings known as "spirits" if they have a means of making their materialized/inhabited form look real. Hell, it even works without that stipulation, but it's obvious they're a spirit due to the way their materialized form looks, not because their aura screams "hey guys, I'm dual-natured."

Your house rules not withstanding.

I am not talking about the aura. I am talking about Masking making the astral form mundane, yes, the astral form looks (or otherwise is perceived as) completely mundane. Masking doesn't explicitly make the fact that there is an astral form go away. Your aura doesn't scream "Hi guys I'm dual natured", neither does your astral form. But it doesn't disguise the fact that you have an astral form, you simply have an astral form that is mundane.

Your house rules not withstanding.

I'm pretty sure that you'd still have an Astral Form. It can change your aura and shape, but I don't think it can hide you astral percieving. Otherwise, it would be like the most important thing for any awakened character to get right away.

Well it pretty much is.

And that is different from anything I've said... how exactly? Where the hell did I ever say it makes them mundane as opposed to appear mundane? And whatever you blather out, got a page reference to actually back it up?

I can't wait to see how you guys try to rationalize Extended Masking, too, in order to match your delusional take on Masking. You know, the technique that extends Masking to your foci and spells to make them appear every bit as ordinary and mundane as your own aura despite their dual nature and astral forms. Because it's going to be a pretty damn useless technique if you guys are trying to say what I think you're trying to say. "Hey Bob, check out this absolutely ordinary looking sword here. It's got an astral form, but don't worry, it's still just an ordinary old sword. Same goes for this spell over here. Yeah, the spell I can obviously see because it has an astral form, but it looks mundane even though it doesn't. Oh shit Bob, I think my brain just exploded from Stupid."

I'm sorry for disagreeing. Let's quote some page numbers then. If I'm not allowed to do this under copyright, please tell me, and I'll paraphrase.



Unfortunately, I don't have 4a, and if this has changed, then you can present that and I'll stop arguing, but nowhere there does it say that you can remove the astral form. It can appear mundane, but it is still there. IIRC, a normal mundane wouldn't astrally project, would they?

Similarly, on Extended Masking (pg. 60, Street Magic), it disguises auras, but nowhere does it talk about disguising astral forms. Admittedly, this makes it significantly less useful, but that may be an oversight.

The way I see it, this shouldn't matter. Anyone who knows about the Infected and the HMHVV should know that Bandersnatchii, Ghouls and Loup-Garou are all dual natured, so an astral form shouldn't be that big of a deal unless it accompanies a large aura. (Which would be masked, no?)

Masking specifically includes astral forms in its description both in the first and last sentences. Extended Masking goes one step further and applies it to your spells and foci. And that very last setnence even tells you that you can't disguise your astral form to look like any astrally active creature without possessing astral projection. Which directly implies that the only thing you can do is mask it so that you look like you're not astrally activate. Extended Masking does the same thing. The rules assume common sense even though it's obviously a honking rare thing on these forums. If Masking and Extended Masking didn't have the ability to make you look completely mundane, it'd be all but useless for its intended purposes. Especially Extended Masking.

And before anyone even tries to go there, Extended Masking is exactly that; an extension of your Masking ability. It's not a completely separate power with completely separate rules. It just applies the rules for masking to your spells, foci, and similar phenomena. And all it takes is a proper Assensing test to see right past, which any competent opponent will be able to do with ease. Masking just helps when you're out in the every day world walking around. It doesn't do much of anything against any real threat unless you grossly outclass them.

The rules might assume common sense, but I find that with varying amounts of it in everyone, its not good to rely on having a base level of it.

RAW, without interpretation, you cannot mask your astral form to be that of a mundane. It just says that you must have astral projection to appear as another astrally active creature. Based on the rules as I can puzzle them out, (and as far as I know, which isn't nearly as much as some of you...) this means that essentially, masking your astral form to be mundane isn't helpful, as the mundane cannot have an astral form to begin with. This means that the form would still be there, despite appearing mundane. Making it extremely hard to justify having when you get seen in astral space. ("Oh ya Bob, I can just project astrally. That's all.")

In which case, a character capable of Masking needs to have Astral Projection in order to change her form. Apparently. Being able to float around in the Astral without a form (unless you lose the opposed test) seems a little bit too much, even for the be-all-end-all of Metamagic. (Or, thats what it looks like, if you use these forums as a sounding board.)

Masking, as I understand the rules, still works to hide you from astrally percieving mages, but not while you are astrally projecting. While you're astrally projecting, they wouldn't be able to see your body anyway, would they?

As an update on the character, I'm looking at a Ghoul or a Pixie. Thoughts? (Also, could you be an Ork Ghoul and have a minimum body of 8 for 55 BP?)

The last sentence simply places a limit on what you can do with Masking. It does not imply that all you can do is mask your astral form so that you look like you are not astrally active. All it implies is that having Astral Perception is not enough to make your Astral Form look like a spirit or another active creature.


That's too bad then. You generally wouldn't have an astral form without being Dual Natured, have Astral Sight/Perception or Astral Projection. Masking helps if you are not the sort that tries to bypass certain vision modifiers by turning on your Astral Perception all the time. It helps if you are not the sort that goes around with active weapon foci on, because weapon foci explicitly has astral forms.

Actually the rules do say you can mask it to look mundane. Read the very first sentence again: "A character who learns masking can change the appearance of her aura/astral form to do the following: look mundane..."

Everyone else in this thread is assuming more than what the rules are saying. It's the whole point of the technique. To mask your aura and astral form so that you can appear completely mundane or any other way you wish it to look. You can do the reverse with it, too, by making yourself look astrally active when you're not, though this apparently requires you to be able to astrally project. It's a very robust technique and it is a "must have" for any shadowrunning magician, dual-natured or not.

And yes, it would work while astrally projecting. However, like the Aura Masking version of the ability states, it's pointless since you don't have a meat body to back it up. So it would be obvious to anyone that you were masking your aura. But you can do it and they still have to make the appropriate rolls to gleam any information about your real aura/astral form. The same goes if you cast a spell; even if you look completely mundane on the astral, it's obvious you're anything but. Masking only goes so far; you still have to be able to back it up.

Nosferatu. 150 BP gets you the absolute most power in the game. Start the game with a Magic 4 (you can do up to 5), and in game just make sure to eat your "breakfast" and "dinner", and you'll have a Magic of 10-11. Make sure to be a Charisma caster (preferrably Mystic Adept), and take Improved Charisma and Improved Willpower, and you're rocking. It gets worse when your first 13 karma go towards Quickening, and you start with a Power Pact to get Aura Masking. You can easily start with a 4 Body, 4 Charisma, 4 Willpower, and 2-3 in everything else. This may not sound like much, but you have to keep in mind what you're up against here: humans (primarily).

The one I played was not built efficiently, and he still was terrifying. Just remember to use the powers you have available.

We are not disputing that. With Masking, your astral form does look mundane. But it doesn't detract from the fact other people can sense that you have an astral form.

Yes, you can make your aura look like another astrally active creature when not astrally active. But Masking doesn't give you an astral form.

Back it up with something other than your opinion and house rules. I've quoted the actual rules and they're pretty damn crystal clear.

Finally, roughly on topic. I'd prefer to avoid the Nosferatu, honestly, despite how pumped they look across the board. I'm feeling the Ghoul right now. Some Cybereyes and a Move-by-Wire system 2, and I'm golden as anything, as long as it isn't based in charisma.

And, I can take the Infertile Infected for an easy 10 points.

@Dr. Funkenstein: Do the rules say that you can make your astral form invisible? Next, do the rules say that a mundane character has an astral form? AFAIK, the answer to both is no, and thus, what you seem to be arguing cannot happen. You might be able to mask your form to appear mundane, but it doesn't just disappear. By the virtue of having it, you can't be entirely mundane. I'd suggest that you quote the actual rules that are so crystal clear that you don't actually need to be quoting them at all, and until you do, you should stop backing your argument up with your opinion and house rules. Stop being inflammatory, just as a bonus. We might be people too. If you don't have a point that can stand on its own, it probably won't help if you insult people to help it.

Back yours up with explicit rules that enable you to appear as if your astral form is not there first. Those are your opinion and house rules.

Those rules are the same ones that I am quoting, and they are damn crystal clear that they make your astral form appear mundane. Those rules do not state any further, they do not remove your astral form so that it does not appear to be there. There is an astral form, it appears mundane - that is all Masking says it does. Extended Masking does that to your spells and foci, the only focus that explicitly has an astral form is a weapon focus, spells are only stated to have an aura.

If you really want to go Ghoul, I suggest you stay blind. Go Assensing instead of Perception, or take Perception specialized in aural (? - hearing). Losing more Essence is not good.

Also, if you go Mystic Adept, you can do fun things like take Motion Sense, then stack on the Blind Fight martial arts maneuver, pretty much negating the penalty for "blind fighting."

All an astral form is a bright, vibrant aura. You can't miss most of them because of that fact. Masking lets you change that fact, as stated in the quote I've made numerous times. Aura Masking backs it up. Enhanced Masking backs it up. SR4A itself backs it up with quotes such as "like physical perception, a character using astral perception should not need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious (and since astral forms are bright and vibrant, this means that most astral forms are easily noticed)." Someone using Masking is one of those times where you need to make a test to spot their astral form if they have one.

Masking doesn't remove it. It hides it if you want it to. I've given numerous quotes. You've done nothing. If Masking worked anything like you guys are implying, it's worthless for its intended role, especially Extended Masking.

I glossed over most of this... debate, but I am inclined to side with toturi based off the little I have gleaned. Aura Masking/Masking/Extended Masking does not remove the presence of an astral form, it simply makes them look mundane. But, if you have a purely astral form, it'll be like tracking a falcon along a starry sky or noticing a mage in a ball of Silence with ultrasound.

I think the problem is that you guys have a weird idea of what an astral form actually is. It's just an unusually bright aura. And when there isn't a mundane object to go along with it (such as an astrally projecting mage), it's painfully obvious what it is despite that fact.

Much better worded way of saying what I was trying to. Thank you.

Ghouls are dual natured! I forgot about that. Assensing works wonders, in this case.

As a ghoul, without any BP spent other than for the quality, Your stats look like this.

Body 5/10
Agility 1/6
Reaction 3/8
Strength 4/9
Charisma 1/4
Intuition 1/6
Logic 1/5
Willpower 3/8
Magic 1/5
Essence 5
And initiative maxes out at 14.

This, for a human, would cost 110BP, but wouldn't change any maximums. On top of this, you have Dual Nature, Enhanced Senses and Natural Weapons, Losing your eyes, a mild allergy to sunlight and that metahuman flesh requirement.

So, where should I go from there? First blush, a magic user seems bad since I lose that point of essence, unless I can sneak it back with lots of initiation, in which case an Int+Wil tradition looks best. Alternately, Phys. Adept wouldn't be bad, but I'd need to focus pretty tight. However, I look pretty muck predisposed to a magic user anyway, since I can basically ignore my str and bod stats.

While it is true that Astral Forms are brighter than Auras, it does not necessarily follow that an astral form is just an unusually bright aura.

And Masking doesn't just affect auras. If you run up to someone who is masking their astral form and poke it, it's obvious that they're masking it. But you can't tell that just by looking unless you make the proper Assensing roll. You may know it's an astral form, but that's the only information you have and you gained that from basic deduction that had nothing to do with assensing. The exact same deduction that lets you know that a spirit without a realistic body using Aura Masking is masking their astral form. Just like if you cast a spell, it's obvious that you're Awakened despite masking your aura.

It's called Masking for a reason. Not Aura Invisibility or Astral Form Remover.

I think it's funny that we're talking around toturi and the others.

I'd suggest you go Magician or Mystic Adept. Go Unarmed for a melee skill, since you already have a neat natural weapon and cannot be disarmed. The reason I suggest that you go a Mage flavor of your choice is this: Nutrition. You won't ever have to worry about that pesky dietary requirement.