toturi
Nov 22 2009, 06:26 AM
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 22 2009, 02:17 PM)

And Masking doesn't just affect auras. If you run up to someone who is masking their astral form and poke it, it's obvious that they're masking it. But you can't tell that just by looking unless you make the proper Assensing roll. You may know it's an astral form, but that's the only information you have and you gained that from basic deduction that had nothing to do with assensing. The exact same deduction that lets you know that a spirit without a realistic body using Aura Masking is masking their astral form. Just like if you cast a spell, it's obvious that you're Awakened despite masking your aura.
It's called Masking for a reason. Not Aura Invisibility or Astral Form Remover.
As I said before, Masking enables your astral form to appear mundane. It does not remove the fact that it
is an astral form.
Ol' Scratch
Nov 22 2009, 06:32 AM
Ghouls make horrible magicians. Their Magic is only 1-5 so they get hit pretty hard in their potential magic department. Adepts are a nice choice since they're less dependent on their Magic score other than the number of Power Points they get, but with geas limited powers that's easy to get around. It's a lot cheaper, too, as far as BPs go, letting you focus on your attributes and skills far more than a magician could.
Ghouls make fantastic street samurai, however. Give them the Astral Sight or Spell/Spirit Knack to open up the possibility for initiation. Grab Counterspelling and eventually Masking, and you'll be a tough little cookie compared to other samurai. The only thing you have to do after that is keep your Essence over 1.00 so that you don't lose your magical abilities altogether.
Alternatively, you could just go all out and drop your Essence to below 1.00. That'll remove the Dual-Natured, but you keep all your other abilities and traits. You also don't have a Magic score to worry about at all so you save a ton of BPs by not having to raise it to counteract any implants you want to score. And the loss of one point of Essence pales next to all the stat boosts you get in return.
Generic_PC
Nov 22 2009, 06:32 AM
I'll go magician. Adepts are... less appealing.
Put 55BP into Magic. High Magic is good.
Put 40 into Willpower and Intuition. 12 Drain Resist Dice is good. Buddhism, Driudism, Hedge Witchery and Wicca (Goddess Wicca), or a custom tradition. I'm heavily leaning towards a custom tradition, and really don't like Hedge witchcraft as it is a possessing tradition.
Put 30 into reaction, 20 into logic and agility. 10 into charisma.
B5/10
A3/6
R5/8
S4/9
C2/4
I5/6
L3/5
W7/8
M5/5
Essence of 5, Initiative of 10 before the sustained Increased Reflexes. I want more agility, but the only thing I'd like to give up is a point of Wil or maybe Log. I guess I'd like to keep charisma at two, but as a modern day Leper, I really don't need it.
I disagree about the horribleness of a ghoul magician. A mage doesn't need 6 magic to be effective, and because of the 25BP for that last point, it is rarely a 6 anyway. Often, magicians will even sneak some 'ware in there, dropping them back even further.
Ol' Scratch
Nov 22 2009, 06:33 AM
QUOTE (toturi @ Nov 22 2009, 12:26 AM)

As I said before, Masking enables your astral form to appear mundane. It does not remove the fact that it is an astral form.
It does as far as anyone detecting it through Assensing goes. I never once said otherwise. You people are the only ones who
ever mentioned that an astral form is
actually removed with Masking.
toturi
Nov 22 2009, 06:36 AM
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 22 2009, 02:33 PM)

It does as far as anyone detecting it through Assensing goes. I never once said otherwise.
You just did
again. Masking doesn't disguise the fact it
is an astral form.
Generic_PC
Nov 22 2009, 06:36 AM
Actually, I was the only one who said that, and I kept saying how I, with my two months of SR, don't actually know the rules inside and out. I haven't even read most of the fluff.
EDIT: Or not...
Anyway, @Neraph: Ya, I like it too. I decided to get the thread back on track. Having two seperate discussions in the same thread is fine, as far as I'm concerned.
Neraph
Nov 22 2009, 06:37 AM
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 22 2009, 12:32 AM)

Ghouls make fantastic street samurai, however. Give them the Astral Sight or Spell/Spirit Knack to open up the possibility for initiation. Grab Counterspelling and eventually Masking, and you'll be a tough little cookie compared to other samurai. The only thing you have to do after that is keep your Essence over 1.00 so that you don't lose your magical abilities altogether.
You cannot Initiate more than once with Astral Sight or Spell/Spirit Knack, if the GM even allows it (allowing it is an optional rule). Astral Sight is worthless, as since ghouls are Dual Natured, they can train Assensing and Astral Combat by default.
Ol' Scratch
Nov 22 2009, 06:37 AM
It does by masking it. That word is freaking synonymous with disguising. It's the entire point.
You may have an astral form, but Masking disguises it so that it doesn't look like you do. It still reacts in all ways like an astral form, but you can't tell it just by looking at it unless you defeat the Masking.
toturi
Nov 22 2009, 06:39 AM
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 22 2009, 02:37 PM)

It does by masking it. That word is freaking synonymous with disguising. It's the entire point.
It Masks the Astral Form as a mundane Astral Form. That's all. It doesn't disguise it as an aura.
And
that's the entire
point.
Neraph
Nov 22 2009, 06:40 AM
QUOTE (Generic_PC @ Nov 22 2009, 12:32 AM)

I'll go magician. Adepts are... less appealing.
Put 55BP into Magic. High Magic is good.
Put 40 into Willpower and Intuition. 12 Drain Resist Dice is good. Buddhism, Driudism, Hedge Witchery and Wicca (Goddess Wicca), or a custom tradition. I'm heavily leaning towards a custom tradition, and really don't like Hedge witchcraft as it is a possessing tradition.
Put 30 into reaction, 20 into logic and agility. 10 into charisma.
B5/10
A3/6
R5/8
S4/9
C2/4
I5/6
L3/5
W7/8
M5/5
Essence of 5, Initiative of 10 before the sustained Increased Reflexes. I want more agility, but the only thing I'd like to give up is a point of Wil or maybe Log. I guess I'd like to keep charisma at two, but as a modern day Leper, I really don't need it.
Really and honestly look into the
Increase Attribute spells. Grab some Psyche if you have to to help with the sustaining, but those spells are amazing. If you do that, go for Quickening as your first metamagic (read: your first 13 karma).
Don't forget the possibility of grabbing a Magic Pact (IIRC) from
Street Magic to temporarily boost your magic attribute. Also look into trying to grab a Spirit Pact to gain Essence Drain in game, so you would be able to boost your magic 12 hours at a time. Otherwise you're stuck with the normal karma-wracking thing of throwing "xp" at it.
Ol' Scratch
Nov 22 2009, 06:42 AM
QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 22 2009, 12:37 AM)

You cannot Initiate more than once with Astral Sight or Spell/Spirit Knack, if the GM even allows it (allowing it is an optional rule). Astral Sight is worthless, as since ghouls are Dual Natured, they can train Assensing and Astral Combat by default.
Uh, no. They can initiate freely. They can also bond with weapon foci for purposes of astral combat, and it opens up multiple metamagic techniques through initiation including Masking, Psychometry and I think Sensing.
Ol' Scratch
Nov 22 2009, 06:43 AM
QUOTE (toturi @ Nov 22 2009, 12:39 AM)

It Masks the Astral Form as a mundane Astral Form. That's all. It doesn't disguise it as an aura.
And that's the entire point.
Wrong. That's your erroneous
opinion based on both jack and squat. At least using the weird definitions of the words you're trying to use.
toturi
Nov 22 2009, 06:45 AM
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 22 2009, 02:43 PM)

Wrong. That's your erroneous opinion based on both jack and squat.
Wrong, that's the RAW as stated in
Masking on p 198 SR4A.
Yours is the erronous
opinion based on both jack and squat. At least using the weird definitions of the words you're trying to use.
Neraph
Nov 22 2009, 06:47 AM
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 22 2009, 12:42 AM)

Uh, no. They can initiate freely. They can also bond with weapon foci for purposes of astral combat, and it opens up multiple metamagic techniques through initiation including Masking, Psychometry and I think Sensing.
....
Astral Sight (now that I go look at it again) does allow you to Initiate only to take things tied to Assensing, and allows you to bind weapon foci expressly for astral combat. And apparently I was wrong about Spell/Spirit Knack as well. Whaddaya know.
I may have been getting those confused with being a cyberzombie, come to think of it. It's late where I am, and I had a
really long day at work. I very well might be getting fired for being 3 minutes late today.
Ol' Scratch
Nov 22 2009, 06:54 AM
That bites.

Hope you don't lose your job.
Generic_PC
Nov 22 2009, 06:56 AM
Just as a quick aside, everything from the runner's companion has to be approved beforehand. Ghoul already has been, but keep that in mind...
If I play an awakened character, it'll be a Mage. End of discussion.I'll also need at least a sustaining focus for increased reflexes, as I hate having only one pass.
Maybe a power focus too? What should I look for in a tradition?
Also, losing your job for being 3 minutes late seems a little extreme, but I hope you manage to keep it.
Neraph
Nov 22 2009, 07:01 AM
QUOTE (Generic_PC @ Nov 22 2009, 12:56 AM)

Just as a quick aside, everything from the runner's companion has to be approved beforehand. Ghoul already has been, but keep that in mind...
If I play an awakened character, it'll be a Mage. End of discussion.I'll also need at least a sustaining focus for increased reflexes, as I hate having only one pass.
Maybe a power focus too? What should I look for in a tradition?
Power Focus won't be that useful at the low force it'd have to be without Restricted Gear (maximum 2). You can use the points other places. With a Sustaining Focus, it'll have to be a F4 one in order to get your +3 initiative, +3 IP (due to the 4 success threshold required for the effect, and the limit on hits being restricted by the force of a spell [except when Edge is used in the roll]).
Do you have access to
Digital Grimoire? If so, I'd highly suggest the Psionic tradition. It's Wil + Int, possession, and has fun things like Guide (I imagine they meant Guidance) and Task spirits.
Neraph
Nov 22 2009, 07:05 AM
QUOTE (Generic_PC @ Nov 22 2009, 12:56 AM)

Also, losing your job for being 3 minutes late seems a little extreme, but I hope you manage to keep it.
See, I was late two or three weeks ago by 10 minutes, and my boss can easily have similarities drawn to a certain part of male physiology. Any way I cut it I'm getting strong disciplinary action against me. Depending on how that goes down (and how much time he/I have had to cool off) things could escalate.

EDIT: Anyways, it's super-late and I have work tomorrow, so I'll be off for the night. I'll try checking in before work to add some more constructive criticism.
Ol' Scratch
Nov 22 2009, 07:07 AM
Affording a ghoul, magician, sustaining focus and power focus is going to be a bleed on your BPs.
Your best option really is a street samurai or other heavily augmented ghoul. If you try to go with a cybered magician, you end up getting hit twice; -1 Essence and -1 Magic before you do anything at all. You'll also get hit with vision penalties if you rely solely on assensing and won't be able to attack physical targets at all (I believe; I need to double check that in SR4) unless you do get cybereyes, so spellcasting is going to be pretty limited if you do decide to do that.
But if you are dead set on being a magician, you need to swallow the double penalty and just deal with it. Since you've already lost four points effectively (-2 Essence and -2 Magic), you may as well fill in that whole point of Essence with other implants. As I mentioned in another thread, Mysterious Implant: Permanent Infusion is a really interesting option. It gives you all the perks of a Pain Editor (meaning no wound penalties to your spellcasting or conjuring when you suffer drain) and boosts your perception, reaction and combat prowess on top of that for the low cost of 0.40 Essence and a moderate addiction to a street drug. Psyche makes perfect sense to go along with that infusion, and you can avoid having the addiction get any worse by speedballing it with Red Mescaline whenever the addiction hits you. Not only will that improve your ability to sustain spells, but it boosts your mental attributes as well. Pretty win for a character who's already living a destructive lifestyle.
You'll want to get Alleviate Allergy and use that in your Health Sustaining Focus during down time instead of Increased Reflexes. At least during the daylight hours so you can function normally. After that it's all about finding a focus. Your tradition won't matter too much, at least no more than it does to any other magician. Find one that appeals to you as a player and that you think fits in well with your ghoul's personality. Off the top of my head, both Chaos Magic and Black Magic seem to fit fairly well. But you can be pretty much anything and it can be a tradition you had prior to your infection, so even oddball combinations like a Ghoul Druid is certainly possible.
Once you have your character focus, develop your skills and attributes first. Then start picking spells that either augment those abilities or cover a field you don't otherwise excel in. Personally, I'd go with heavy combat skills since you're going to be defending yourself a lot, meaning you'll want a really nice weapon focus, and then I'd focus on more mental oriented spells such as Control Actions or Thoughts, Alter Memory, and etc. Probably illusions as well so that I could appear normal if/when I needed to, which will be pretty often.
Generic_PC
Nov 22 2009, 07:12 AM
Hopefully they don't. I feel you as far as a bad boss goes though.
I don't really want to deal with possesion, and I don't have the digital grimoire any how. I think my best bet is a custom tradition, something spontaneous and intuitive, so that it can be hard to teach and a somewhat unique tradition. Maybe pick up a mentor spirit...
The Jake
Nov 22 2009, 11:53 AM
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 22 2009, 05:29 AM)

Actually the rules do say you can mask it to look mundane. Read the very first sentence again: "A character who learns masking can change the appearance of her aura/astral form to do the following: look mundane..."
Everyone else in this thread is assuming more than what the rules are saying. It's the whole point of the technique. To mask your aura and astral form so that you can appear completely mundane or any other way you wish it to look. You can do the reverse with it, too, by making yourself look astrally active when you're not, though this apparently requires you to be able to astrally project. It's a very robust technique and it is a "must have" for any shadowrunning magician, dual-natured or not.
And yes, it would work while astrally projecting. However, like the Aura Masking version of the ability states, it's pointless since you don't have a meat body to back it up. So it would be obvious to anyone that you were masking your aura. But you can do it and they still have to make the appropriate rolls to gleam any information about your real aura/astral form. The same goes if you cast a spell; even if you look completely mundane on the astral, it's obvious you're anything but. Masking only goes so far; you still have to be able to back it up.
I agree with you Doc. People have some pretty funny interpretations on how this thing works.
I get the notion that you still have an Astral Form. But for practical intents and purposes, unless someone can beat your Masking on an Astral Perception test, its a moot point - they'll have no reason to suspect you are anything other than a mundane UNLESS they see you reacting to astral forms because you're Dual Natured or what not (and that's only because they would find it very odd - someone reacting to the astral, without having an astral aura).
- J.
Generic_PC
Nov 22 2009, 03:54 PM
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 22 2009, 12:07 AM)

But if you are dead set on being a magician, you need to swallow the double penalty and just deal with it. Since you've already lost four points effectively (-2 Essence and -2 Magic), you may as well fill in that whole point of Essence with other implants. As I mentioned in another thread, Mysterious Implant: Permanent Infusion is a really interesting option. It gives you all the perks of a Pain Editor (meaning no wound penalties to your spellcasting or conjuring when you suffer drain) and boosts your perception, reaction and combat prowess on top of that for the low cost of 0.40 Essence and a moderate addiction to a street drug. Psyche makes perfect sense to go along with that infusion, and you can avoid having the addiction get any worse by speedballing it with Red Mescaline whenever the addiction hits you. Not only will that improve your ability to sustain spells, but it boosts your mental attributes as well. Pretty win for a character who's already living a destructive lifestyle.
I agree that this seems like a good idea, especially flavour-wise as you said, but where are you getting the Mysterious Implant: Permanant Infusion?
Also, what is Red Mescaline? Where is it?
I like the idea of a magician turned ghoul. Probably in some denial, since he's losing his eyes and stuff.
Tsuul
Nov 22 2009, 06:16 PM
I'm trying to get a handle on the astral form thing.
Wouldn't a mundane's astral form just be the shadowy reflection of themselves (ghostlike, I imagine).
Their aura [a mundane's] would be there.
Someone who is active would have a solid astral form instead of a shadowy one.
An active aura would be brighter then a mundane person's would be.
Or is there an argument going on that [some/most/all] mundanes have no astral form whatsoever?
Ancient History
Nov 22 2009, 07:22 PM
Mundanes don't have an astral form, period. They have no presence on the astral plane whatsoever; only their aura is visible.
Jack Kain
Nov 22 2009, 07:40 PM
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 22 2009, 12:32 AM)

Ghouls make horrible magicians. Their Magic is only 1-5 so they get hit pretty hard in their potential magic department.
So their maximum magic is five+initiate grade not six, not that big a deal.
Weaver95
Nov 22 2009, 08:35 PM
the weirdest part to this discussion is that I look at Infected characters as a unique and challenging story that I can add to my campaign arc(s). some of you seem to ignore the story and only concentrate on the spreadsheet number crunching.
to each their own, but that sort of mindset seems to have been with shadowrun since 1st edition. it also happens to be my least favorite aspect of shadowrun players and this subculture.
hahnsoo
Nov 22 2009, 08:49 PM
QUOTE (Weaver95 @ Nov 22 2009, 04:35 PM)

the weirdest part to this discussion is that I look at Infected characters as a unique and challenging story that I can add to my campaign arc(s). some of you seem to ignore the story and only concentrate on the spreadsheet number crunching.
to each their own, but that sort of mindset seems to have been with shadowrun since 1st edition. it also happens to be my least favorite aspect of shadowrun players and this subculture.
That's your own discussion, not the discussion that was posted by the Original Poster in this thread. The OP was specifically looking at min/maxing and point values. If you want to get on a high horse and denounce number crunching, you should probably start your own Infected discussion in that regard. The roleplaying of Infected is an interesting topic, but I'm not sure it is relevant to the OP's interests (it might be, who knows?).
Weaver95
Nov 22 2009, 08:51 PM
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Nov 22 2009, 03:49 PM)

That's your own discussion, not the discussion that was posted by the Original Poster in this thread. The OP was specifically looking at min/maxing and point values. If you want to get on a high horse and denounce number crunching, you should probably start your own Infected discussion in that regard. The roleplaying of Infected is an interesting topic, but I'm not sure it is relevant to the OP's interests (it might be, who knows?).
I have very little respect for players that min/max. if you want to crunch numbers, go play a wargames or fantasy football.
LurkerOutThere
Nov 22 2009, 09:15 PM
Fortunately for all involved your respect was neither required nor particularly needed Weaver, regardless of my own feelings on the matter your doing the equivalent of going to a Football game and bitching to everyone how much you hate football and everyone should be playing soccer. It's entirely understandable to have that opinion, it's just a matter of wrong venue.
For my own part I actively discourage my players from playing infected as the social issues will cause unnecissary headaches for the rest of the team.
Ol' Scratch
Nov 22 2009, 09:21 PM
QUOTE (Generic_PC @ Nov 22 2009, 09:54 AM)

I agree that this seems like a good idea, especially flavour-wise as you said, but where are you getting the Mysterious Implant: Permanant Infusion?
Also, what is Red Mescaline? Where is it?
The quality Mysterious Implant is from
Runner's Companion and both Red Mescaline and the Loco speedball (Psyche + Red Mescaline) is in
Arsenal. The Sideways genetic infusion is from
Augmentation.
QUOTE
So their maximum magic is five+initiate grade not six, not that big a deal.
Perhaps for you, but it's annoying for me. Especially since getting Magic 5 is easy for most other metahumans, but for a ghoul it costs an extra 15 BPs on top of the 35 for being a ghoul. They also get hit for -1 Essence right off the bat, and the much-required cybereyes means both that and their max Magic is 4. And it still cost them that extra 15 BPs.
Ol' Scratch
Nov 22 2009, 09:27 PM
QUOTE (Weaver95 @ Nov 22 2009, 02:35 PM)

the weirdest part to this discussion is that I look at Infected characters as a unique and challenging story that I can add to my campaign arc(s). some of you seem to ignore the story and only concentrate on the spreadsheet number crunching.
to each their own, but that sort of mindset seems to have been with shadowrun since 1st edition. it also happens to be my least favorite aspect of shadowrun players and this subculture.
One doesn't ignore the other. You should be able to have an interesting character that's not only unique, but competent in his field. Else, why is anyone hiring him when there's countless other potential runners out there who
can do the job right?
Mordinvan
Nov 22 2009, 09:48 PM
Would you be able to tell us how many of the bp a vampire is worth goes into their regeneration and mist form abilities? I'm actually curious what the design team thinks they are actually worth.
toturi
Nov 23 2009, 12:06 AM
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Nov 23 2009, 03:22 AM)

Mundanes don't have an astral form, period. They have no presence on the astral plane whatsoever; only their aura is visible.
What if a mundane is forced to astrally project?
Generic_PC
Nov 23 2009, 12:40 AM
QUOTE (Weaver95 @ Nov 22 2009, 01:35 PM)

the weirdest part to this discussion is that I look at Infected characters as a unique and challenging story that I can add to my campaign arc(s). some of you seem to ignore the story and only concentrate on the spreadsheet number crunching.
They don't need to be exclusive. I cannot understand why they seem to be. I try to back my characters, all of them, up with good stories and personality, but I won't slave one to the other. If I come up with the character first, I build the story to fit. And vice versa. The stormwind fallacy is a common post on the wizards of the coast forums that people get pointed to about this. Essentially, it says that roleplay and optimization do not need to be mutually exclusive. If you want to read the actual post, you'll have to search for it on google.
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 22 2009, 02:21 PM)

Perhaps for you, but it's annoying for me. Especially since getting Magic 5 is easy for most other metahumans, but for a ghoul it costs an extra 15 BPs on top of the 35 for being a ghoul. They also get hit for -1 Essence right off the bat, and the much-required cybereyes means both that and their max Magic is 4. And it still cost them that extra 15 BPs.
No, it won't. This is something important about Infected. When they lose a point of essence, they don't lose a point of magic unless they're magic stat is higher than the new magic maximum. (Where the maximum is Essence+Initiation.) This means that I can buy 4 points of magic and I won't take any loss until I go below 4 essence. (Or 3+ 1 grade of initiation, etc.)
Ol' Scratch
Nov 23 2009, 01:25 AM
Uh, no, that's from Essence Drain/Essence Loss powers. Not Essence lost due to augmentation.
Ascalaphus
Nov 23 2009, 02:03 AM
I don't think anyone here really believes that Masking will allow you to project into the astral and then become invisible because mundanes can't astrally project.
I suppose you could look like a mundane who's projecting as if he'd gotten some interesting awakened drugs though.
Do I understand correctly that your aura is bigger than your meat body, and that while an astral form can pass through your aura, it can't pass through your meat body? (And the same for plants, otherwise all that ivy on secure buildings is crap...)
And that you only have an astral body when A) Assensing or otherwise dual-natured, or B) astrally projecting? (For normal mages)
Ol' Scratch
Nov 23 2009, 02:17 AM
QUOTE
I don't think anyone here really believes that Masking will allow you to project into the astral and then become invisible because mundanes can't astrally project.
Now I'm
utterly convinced you guys have no idea what an astral form is.
An astral form is, for all intents and purposes, a solid aura that's unusually bright and vibrant compared to other auras. If you run up and touch it on the astral, you're going to feel that it's solid, whereas your hand goes right through a normal aura. But if you tone down the bright and vibrant hue of it, it
looks just like any other aura, especially if you use Masking to make it look like whatever kind of aura you want it to look like. It's
still an astral form. It's
still solid. You
still have to deal with other astral forms. If someone casts a manaball on the astral, it's
still going to affect you. But someone just
observing it (ie, using Assensing) isn't going to be able to tell that it
is as astral form if you're masking it unless they directly interact with it. And even then, all they're going to be able to deduce is that you're using masking; they won't learn any information whatosever from it unless they beat the roll.
An astrally projecting magician using masking to appear mundane wouldn't disappear. He'd be a weird aura that's floating around without a meat body, and that would be obvious. Unless you were a total dolt, you'd deduce that it's a masked astral form, but you wouldn't be able to ascertain
anything from the actual aura via Assensing unless you beat his Masking roll. You would, however, know you can engage it in Astral Combat and whatnot.
I honestly have no idea how you people can see it as anything else when that's exactly what it tells you it does, especially when you look at all the other information. Again, like the line
"like physical perception, a character using astral perception should not need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious (and since astral forms are bright and vibrant, this means that most astral forms are easily noticed)". It's absolutely bewildering.
Ol' Scratch
Nov 23 2009, 02:28 AM
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Nov 22 2009, 08:03 PM)

Do I understand correctly that your aura is bigger than your meat body, and that while an astral form can pass through your aura, it can't pass through your meat body? (And the same for plants, otherwise all that ivy on secure buildings is crap...)
Some are and some aren't. Your aura and, to a greater degree, your astral form is usually an idealized form of yourself. If you're a shapeshifter, it's even be grossly different than your meat body. The point is that an astral form is
solid, so that ivy isn't crap anymore than bars in a prison cell are. Since your form is also solid, you're not going to be wiggling through them anytime soon.
QUOTE
And that you only have an astral body when A) Assensing or otherwise dual-natured, or B) astrally projecting? (For normal mages)
Your aura blossoms into an astral form whenever you're astrally active. It becomes solid, bright and vibrant, and sometimes it even changes its shape if you have a particularly idealic vision of yourself. Masking reverts that change if you so wish, or mimicks it if you so desire while not astrally active. For whatever reason though, the latter requires you to be able to astrally project. That particular condition is kind of goofy, but whatever.
toturi
Nov 23 2009, 02:36 AM
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 23 2009, 10:17 AM)

An astral form is, for all intents and purposes, a solid aura that's unusually bright and vibrant compared to other auras. If you run up and touch it on the astral, you're going to feel that it's solid, whereas your hand goes right through a normal aura. But if you tone down the bright and vibrant hue of it, it looks just like any other aura, especially if you use Masking to make it look like whatever kind of aura you want it to look like. It's still an astral form. It's still solid. You still have to deal with other astral forms. If someone casts a manaball on the astral, it's still going to affect you. But someone just observing it (ie, using Assensing) isn't going to be able to tell that it is as astral form if you're masking it unless they directly interact with it. And even then, all they're going to be able to deduce is that you're using masking; they won't learn any information whatosever from it unless they beat the roll.
Please back up those claims with specific and explicit quotes. Masking makes auras and astral forms appear mundane, it does not explicitly make an astral form appear as if it is an aura. An astral form is brighter than an aura, that much is correct. But I have yet to read in any of the SR4 books that an astral form is "a solid aura that is unusually bright and vibrant compared to other auras". In fact, due to "like physical perception, a character using astral perception should not need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious (and since astral forms are bright and vibrant, this means that most astral forms are easily noticed", it implies that there is a distinction between auras and astral forms when using astral perception. A mundane astral form is still brighter than a mundane aura, unless it is RAW that a mundane can
never have an astral form, either via astral perception or astral projection or any other method of creating dual naturedness, at which case, I'd agree with you.
My contention is that mundanes can have astral projection(via Astral Gateway or Shade, or some other manner I have overlooked) and thus have astral forms. Such mundane astral forms are what Masking can make other astral forms appear like. Is another astral form attempting to move through a Masked form going to feel something solid blocking his way or not?
Ol' Scratch
Nov 23 2009, 02:49 AM
Auras and Astral Forms
Living things that are not active on the astral plane still cast a reflection of themselves there, called an aura. Any non-living objects appear as faded semblances of their physical selves, gray and lifeless, while the auras of living things are vibrant and colorful.
"Anything active on the astral plane has a tangible astral form—projecting magicians, spirits, dual-natured beings, and so on. Astral forms are more colorful and brighter than auras, as they are astrally “real.” The Earth has an astral form, and many regard this as proof that the planet is a living entity apart from the creatures that inhabit its surface."
The only different is that they're tangible and brighter than a normal aura. That's it. Masking lets you completely control the way your aura and astral form appears. All just as I've already referenced it, but you have some mental retardation that makes it impossible for you to deduce information. I have neither the desire nor see the point in talking to a brick wall such as yourself anymore. So from this point forward, don't bother replying to anything I have to say. I'll certainly be doing the same.
toturi
Nov 23 2009, 02:53 AM
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 23 2009, 10:49 AM)

Auras and Astral Forms
Living things that are not active on the astral plane still cast a reflection of themselves there, called an aura. Any non-living objects appear as faded semblances of their physical selves, gray and lifeless, while the auras of living things are vibrant and colorful.
"Anything active on the astral plane has a tangible astral form—projecting magicians, spirits, dual-natured beings, and so on. Astral forms are more colorful and brighter than auras, as they are astrally “real.” The Earth has an astral form, and many regard this as proof that the planet is a living entity apart from the creatures that inhabit its surface."
The only different is that they're tangible and brighter than a normal aura. That's it. Masking lets you completely control the way your aura and astral form appears. All just as I've already referenced it, but you have some mental retardation that makes it impossible for you to deduce information. I have neither the desire nor see the point in talking to a brick wall such as yourself anymore. So from this point forward, don't bother replying to anything I have to say. I'll certainly be doing the same.
Those quotes simply state the astral forms are more colourful and brighter than auras, they do not state that they are brighter and more colourful
auras.
Masking doesn't make your astral form appear as if an aura. Masking doesn't say that.
You have some mental retardation that makes it impossible to deduce such information. Despite that, I will continue trying to
free your mind.
Neraph
Nov 23 2009, 05:25 AM
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 22 2009, 03:21 PM)

The quality Mysterious Implant is from Runner's Companion and both Red Mescaline and the Loco speedball (Psyche + Red Mescaline) is in Arsenal. The Sideways genetic infusion is from Augmentation.
Red Mescaline is one of the most diabolical drugs in the game. It very dastardly convinces you that not only is it good, but there's no reason not to take it. Go read the last sentence of the first paragraph of its description on page 75,
Arsenal.
That is why I will never take it, ever. Put emphasis on the "equivalent duration" bit. Charisma and Willpower of 1 for the next 15 hours, no thank you, not now, not ever.
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 22 2009, 03:21 PM)

Perhaps for you, but it's annoying for me. Especially since getting Magic 5 is easy for most other metahumans, but for a ghoul it costs an extra 15 BPs on top of the 35 for being a ghoul. They also get hit for -1 Essence right off the bat, and the much-required cybereyes means both that and their max Magic is 4. And it still cost them that extra 15 BPs.
I don't believe cybereyes are required. If they can do melee combat just fine using only Assensing, then why can't they cast spells just fine on the physical plane?
Ol' Scratch
Nov 23 2009, 05:29 AM
Line of sight is required on the plane that you're casting the spell, I do believe. It's part of the whole mystical link thing. Melee combat just requires you to know where your target is. Sorcery requires an actual mystical link.
And yeah, I know about Red Mescaline. The thing about addictions is that you don't have to take them on an actual run, though it can come up if you have a particularly brutal addiction you haven't been satisfying for whatever reason. A Willpower and Charisma of 1 doesn't mean much when you're sleeping most of it off.
Neraph
Nov 23 2009, 05:38 AM
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 22 2009, 11:29 PM)

Line of sight is required on the plane that you're casting the spell, I do believe. It's part of the whole mystical link thing. Melee combat just requires you to know where your target is. Sorcery requires an actual mystical link.
I can see this. I'll have to investimigate.
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 22 2009, 11:29 PM)

And yeah, I know about Red Mescaline. The thing about addictions is that you don't have to take them on an actual run, though it can come up if you have a particularly brutal addiction you haven't been satisfying for whatever reason. A Willpower and Charisma of 1 doesn't mean much when you're sleeping most of it off.

A Willpower of 1 means a lot when you get cast on in your sleep after a run that was detected though. Waaaaaay too much of a liability for the paltry benefits.
You also assume that you end up addicted. It very well may happen, but no character I've ever had has gained an addiction in play (and they do use every now and then).
Ol' Scratch
Nov 23 2009, 05:56 AM
The reason Red Mescaline was brought up was because the Mysterious Implant: Permanent Infusion negative qualities give you a free genetic infusion permanently, but at the cost is that you automatically start with a Moderate Addiction to one street drug. Psyche, individually, makes perfect sense to go with the Sideways infusion so it's an easy argument to offer your GM when selecting the street drug since it open your mind, helping you overcome the loss of physical sensation you gained from the infusion. Moderate Addictions come up a lot more than Mild ones do, too, so when you do need to feed the need in between runs it's best to speedball them together so it doesn't get worse. If, instead, it comes up during a run or while having to keep a low profile after a run, you can always just go with Psyche by itself without having to worry about Red Mescaline's hindrances. But you risk pushing your addiction to the Severe category, which is pretty awful. And once you hit there, it's just one bad roll before you're character really starts getting fucked up.
Muspellsheimr
Nov 23 2009, 05:57 AM
As long as you are active on the Physical plane (such as when Perceiving or with Dual Natured creatures [Ghouls]), you can target spells against Physical targets as long as you can see them - regardless of if you do so through Physical or Astral Perception.
Ol' Scratch
Nov 23 2009, 06:08 AM
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Nov 22 2009, 11:57 PM)

As long as you are active on the Physical plane (such as when Perceiving or with Dual Natured creatures [Ghouls]), you can target spells against Physical targets as long as you can see them - regardless of if you do so through Physical or Astral Perception.
I would say 'wrong' again but it's getting old.
SR4A, p. 183, Spell Targeting:
"Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted)." The next line,
"an astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space" assumes that the dual-natured/perceiving individual isn't blind in the physical world. Which effectively makes them "a magician in astral space." You can't target physical creatures if you can't see them in the physical realm. You have to have the magical link supplied through LOS, touch, or a sympathetic link in the case of ritual spellcasting. That's covered in the previous paragraph.
"The act of choosing a target establishes a mystic link between caster and target. It is through this “targeting link” which the mana of a spell construct is channeled to produce a spell effect. Under the basic Shadowrun
rules, such a link requires line of sight or touch."
Neraph
Nov 23 2009, 06:11 AM
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 23 2009, 12:08 AM)

I would say 'wrong' again but it's getting old.
SR4A, p. 183, Spell Targeting: "Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted)." The next line, "an astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space" assumes that the dual-natured/perceiving individual isn't blind in the physical world. Which effectively makes them "a magician in astral space." You can't target physical creatures if you can't see them in the physical realm. You have to have the magical link supplied through LOS, touch, or a sympathetic link in the case of ritual spellcasting. That's covered in the previous paragraph. "The act of choosing a target establishes a mystic link between caster and target. It is through this “targeting link” which the mana of a spell construct is channeled to produce a spell effect. Under the basic Shadowrun rules, such a link requires line of sight or touch."
I understand that, and that makes sense. However, the rules do not support assumations. From a purely RAW standpoint, ghoul mages can cast on the Physical plane.
Even I do not like my games that RAW though.
I suggest then taking something like Motion Sense (adept power, which would neccessitate that you go Mystic Adept), that way you could then target with things you "feel."
Ol' Scratch
Nov 23 2009, 06:19 AM
No, it's not "RAW." Which is an amazingly stupid term in and of itself as there is no such thing as "RAW" since one of the fundamental rules of the game, found on the very first page of the actual rules of the game, tell you to change them when they don't fit a situation properly.
Regardless, "RAW" states that line of sight is required for the target. People can't ignore one rule and beat off to another one and expect to be adhering to "RAW." Blind characters don't have line of sight to physical creatures. Period. Thus blind characters, dual-natured or not, cannot establish the mystical link to a purely physical target. Period. Thus blind characters cannot cast spells on physical targets. Period.
Neraph
Nov 23 2009, 06:23 AM
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 23 2009, 12:19 AM)

No, it's not "RAW." Which is an amazingly stupid term in and of itself as there is no such thing as "RAW" since one of the fundamental rules of the game, found on the very first page of the actual rules of the game, tell you to change them when they don't fit a situation properly.
Regardless, "RAW" states that line of sight is required for the target. People can't ignore one rule and beat off to another one and expect to be adhering to "RAW." Blind characters don't have line of sight to physical creatures. Period. Thus blind characters, dual-natured or not, cannot establish the mystical link to a purely physical target. Period. Thus blind characters cannot cast spells on physical targets. Period.
Technically, Ghouls do not lack eyes. They simply have a -6 penalty for working only with their eyes. And as for RAW, yes it exists very obviously, and implying or claiming it does not is amazingly stupid. An Ares Predator deals a base of 5P. That's RAW. One example of many book's worth.
RAW = Rule As Written. If it is a rule, and it's written down, it's RAW. I've considered adding o-RAW, for optional Rule As Written, for those of you who bug me for getting freeware (at all) R4 Skillsofts for free.
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 23 2009, 12:19 AM)

"RAW" since one of the fundamental rules of the game, found on the very first page of the actual rules of the game, tell you to change them when they don't fit a situation properly.
I can't get over how hilarious it is that you refer to RAW to try and claim there is no RAW...
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