I was looking at the infected... Options

[Generic_PC]

And it looks like a total rip-off. Admittedly, I'm relatively new to Shadowrun, so I would like to know how Dumpshock feels about the infected. Are there any that stand out as being min/maxer dreams? Are there any that are absolutely horrible? (Off the top of my head, Bandersnatch looks really bad. You've already got to pay 40BP as a Sasquatch, +30BP so that you can be a Bandersnatch, so that you can have a coat that changes colour, trading off for the need to eat sasquatchi every couple days. You still can't talk.)

Actually, I'd like comments on Sapient Critters too. Pixie looks like an awesome choice, even for 55BP. It's -3Bod, +2 Agi, +2 Rea, -3 Str, +2 Cha, +1 Int, +1 Log, and +2 Wil...

Especially considering that no one uses strength, You've only got to worry about having a body of 2.

[Weaver95]

I have 1 (one) infected player character in my current campaign. so far, she's finding the social negatives outweight the potential benefits. For one thing, in a 400pt campaign she found herself far below other starting characters. her gear sucked (and still does) and she's got issues with functioning in a lot of areas (try getting through the seattle core without a valid SIN).

overall, as long as everyone knows that there are some pretty big limitations to being one of the infected, it's not a too terribly bad addition to a game. but I wouldn't allow more than one of the Infected in any campaign.

[Ol' Scratch]

Ghouls are probably the most open to taking advantage of from a powergaming point of view. Their low cost and impressive stat boosts are nice, and if you go adept or mystic adept you basically get astral perception for free. I, personally, love Dual Natured far more than standard astral perception once you get Masking. Your Dietary Requirements are easily handled by your lifestyle (they're simply roleplaying notes in practice) and the mild allergy to sunlight isn't that annoying. If you went mystic adept, a Sustaining Focus with Alleviate Allergy is enough to kill it if you absolutely must.

Goblins are pretty awesome as far as their power-to-cost ratio goes, but they don't sound at all fun to play which is probably why you don't see them very often as player characters.

If you're going for a mundane killing machine who's as anti-magic as they come, a Fomori Fomoraig changeling is downright scary. Arcane Arrester (race), Astral Hazing (changeling) and Magical Guard (infected) is a brutal combo. Give them a respirator and they're pretty set, though the sunlight allergy is a little annoying. It's even more terrifying because your minimum Body has a range of 9/14 (21) or so. It's almost worth it just for that fact alone.

All the other options are just ridiculously overpriced or utter shit.

[Starmage21]

dont forget the intentional overinflation of BP costs because the developers think that certain things should be rarer than others.

[nezumi]

It's good to remember that the infected bonuses will work best with certain character types. I can't speak for 4th edition, but in 3rd, adepts could come out with some nice bonuses for becoming infected.

[Draco18s]

dont forget the intentional overinflation of BP costs because the developers think that certain things should be rarer than others.

I wanna be a free spirit! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

300 BP?!? D:

[Ancient History]

dont forget the intentional overinflation of BP costs because the developers think that certain things should be rarer than others.

I can assure you that for the Infected, shapeshifters, drakes, and sapient critters rarity was not a factor in the BP formula.

It's probably an important distinction to make, so I'll state it openly: the Infected were not intended primarily as "these are some awesome new character options" as sapient critters and shapeshifters were, but rather as "the Infected are part of Shadowrun, we let you play ghouls before, there's no real reason not to let you play ghouls again, and if we're going to let you play ghouls we might as well let you play all the other Infected critters too." So, different approach there. This probably has something to do with the fact that your authors prefer the de-glamorized vampires seen in films like Near Dark and comics like 30 Days of Night.

[Draco18s]

This probably has something to do with the fact that your authors prefer the de-glamorized vampires seen in films like Near Dark and comics like 30 Days of Night.

There's nothing wrong with de-glamorized vampires. But there is something wrong with them being a full quarter of your starting BP.

[Ol' Scratch]

I personally find it hilarious that almost all the Infected options come with a boosted Willpower. Despite, you know, being presented as feral beasts just barely able to contain their instincts.

[Generic_PC]

I noticed that. I also found it funny how Wendigo, which are essentially presented as yeti, have a better base charisma than the ork it was built off of. (1/6 v 1/5)

[Ancient History]

Never read the Secrets of Power Trilogy, have ya?

Look, I make no bones about it: vampires have better stats, cool powers, and "free" Magic. Yes, they're bloody expensive.

[Starmage21]

Never read the Secrets of Power Trilogy, have ya?

Look, I make no bones about it: vampires have better stats, cool powers, and "free" Magic. Yes, they're bloody expensive.

Wheres that free magic come in? Vampires dont get magician for free, just a magic rating that they have to maintain, just to maintain powers. Unless youre playing other types of infected, you still gotta pay for those qualities to utilize that magic rating.

[Glyph]

Wendigos create secret cannibal cults to gain their sustenance, so I could see them as being Charismatic in that sense.

Ghouls, goblins, and fomoraig are probably the best ones from a purely min-maxing point of view, although they are also pretty disgusting things to play.

Things like vampires start out weaker, but keep in mind, they get 80 points worth of Attribute bonuses, so the effective net cost for them is only 20 points, for some pretty cool abilities. It still takes more effort to create a good one, though.

Generally, infected characters have some pretty hefty disadvantages. Unless you are actually interested in playing out those disadvantages, min-maxing one of them is not really worth it.

[Starmage21]

Wendigos create secret cannibal cults to gain their sustenance, so I could see them as being Charismatic in that sense.

Ghouls, goblins, and fomoraig are probably the best ones from a purely min-maxing point of view, although they are also pretty disgusting things to play.

Things like vampires start out weaker, but keep in mind, they get 80 points worth of Attribute bonuses, so the effective net cost for them is only 20 points, for some pretty cool abilities. It still takes more effort to create a good one, though.

Generally, infected characters have some pretty hefty disadvantages. Unless you are actually interested in playing out those disadvantages, min-maxing one of them is not really worth it.

80 points of attributes means crap if your archetype only uses 3 of them from the min-max point of view.

[Muspellsheimr]

I, personally, love Dual Natured far more than standard astral perception once you get Masking.

Except Masking does not allow you to make your astral form 'invisible'. You can look like a human, elf, or dragon, if you want, but you still are obviously perceiving to anyone looking (barring Infiltration).

Also the problem with wards does not just go away - Masking does not always work when you need it to for bypassing wards, & it generally takes quite some time to use it in that manner to begin.

I can assure you that for the Infected, shapeshifters, drakes, and sapient critters rarity was not a factor in the BP formula.

And the funny thing is, out of all of those, only Vampires & Nosferatu are appropriately priced. A few other options are close to where they should be, but most are either far to expensive or far to cheap for what they get.

[Glyph]

80 points of attributes means crap if your archetype only uses 3 of them from the min-max point of view.

True, which is why I said that they still require more effort to create a decent character. But on the other hand, those bonuses are all +1 or +2 - they aren't like trolls, which get two +4 bonuses. So unless you regularly take a number of dump stats at 1, the 80 points don't really mess up any min-maxing. If it is not a stat you want to pump up, leave it at 2 or 3, while if it is, you can boost it higher. The problem with vampires is that they don't really work for cybered characters, and are behind the power curve as adepts or mages. Regeneration and mist form are potent abilities, though.

[Ancient History]

And the funny thing is, out of all of those, only Vampires & Nosferatu are appropriately priced. A few other options are close to where they should be, but most are either far to expensive or far to cheap for what they get.

My last laptop death ate the notes and drafts for that particular book, but the formula took into account different costs for metatype, powers, raising and lowering attributes, and weakness; rounded up to the nearest 5 BP. If you don't think the math came out right, you're more than welcome to calculate it yourself for your home games, or submit a proposal to CGL the next time it comes around to write the damned thing.

[Generic_PC]

So, if I was looking at say... a Pixie Face, where would you guys take it?

Similarly, Where would you take something like a Nosferatu or a Vampire? Or a ghoul or a Fomoriag or a Wendigo...

(the pixie face seemed like a good start, as I thought that would be a natural archetype. I have no idea where I would take a vampire or whatever.)

[Starmage21]

So, if I was looking at say... a Pixie Face, where would you guys take it?

Similarly, Where would you take something like a Nosferatu or a Vampire? Or a ghoul or a Fomoriag or a Wendigo...

(the pixie face seemed like a good start, as I thought that would be a natural archetype. I have no idea where I would take a vampire or whatever.)

vampires can make disgusting gunbunny adepts, nosferatu get the biggest bonuses in the drain resisting stats for hermetic mages.

[Ol' Scratch]

So, if I was looking at say... a Pixie Face, where would you guys take it?

Similarly, Where would you take something like a Nosferatu or a Vampire? Or a ghoul or a Fomoriag or a Wendigo...

I'm a firm believer that a good Face has to not only be able to schmooze with the best of them, but that they have to be able to blend in to the background just as often. A pixie would be a horrible Face, just like pretty much any unusual racial option would be.

I've tried making a Vampire and even a Nosferatu a few times under SR4's rules and they all came out like shit. Totally worthless character design options. You might be able to create a very one dimensional character that's maybe slightly better at one thing than any other character could be, but all the negatives grossly outweigh any possible benefits. Shadowrun's design team puts way too much value on Regeneration and that's the main reason they suck so much.

Ghouls are definitely the most functional of the infected races, especially as a Human. They're only slightly more expensive than an Elf but give stat bonuses that make Trolls sound like sissies. Body +4, Reaction (!) +2, Strength +3, and Willpower +2 at the cost of Charisma -2 and Logic -1. Which will rarely if ever come up with most any character designed to take advantage of all those stat boosts (ie, combat junkies). I mean, how often do you need a non-Social Adept or Street Samurai with a Charisma of 4 or Logic of 5? Not very.

Except Masking does not allow you to make your astral form 'invisible'. You can look like a human, elf, or dragon, if you want, but you still are obviously perceiving to anyone looking (barring Infiltration).

Hey, what do you know: Wrong again.

Masking gives you full control over the appearance of your aura. You can look completely mundane (which goes hand-in-hand with hiding your use of astral perception or dual nature by the very definition of the term), appear to be awesomely powerful or a meek magician by raising/lowering your perceived Magic rating, appear to be some other kind of creature, or even appear to be a fully astrally-active spirit when you're walking around as a mundane. The only limitation comes from the very last line of the description for Masking: "To disguise her astral form to look like a spirit or other astrally active creature, the character must be capable of astral projection."

Active magic use will still leave a signature, but that's not an aura let alone a masked one.

[Ancient History]

Masking gives you full control over the appearance of your aura. You can look completely mundane (which goes hand-in-hand with hiding your use of astral perception or dual nature by the very definition of the term), appear to be awesomely powerful or a meek magician by raising/lowering your perceived Magic rating, appear to be some other kind of creature, or even appear to be a fully astrally-active spirit when you're walking around as a mundane. The only limitation comes from the very last line of the description for Masking: "To disguise her astral form to look like a spirit or other astrally active creature, the character must be capable of astral projection."

I'd argue it would be pretty weird to have a mundane aura walking around on the astral plane. You can disguise what you look like, but you can't disguise the fact that you're dual-natured or astrally perceiving.

[Ol' Scratch]

You'd argue a lot of things, but you wouldn't necessarily be right. Extended Masking even goes a step further, applying to your foci and making them look completely mundane, too. Even if they're currently active (and thus dual natured).

It's further backed up by the spirit power Aura Masking from Street Magic: "This power functions as both the initiate powers Masking (p. 190, SR4) and Extended Masking (p. 60). The spirit uses its Edge in place of initiate grade. The spirit can also hide the use of any of its powers on itself within the masked aura. Only characters who pierce the masking can see the spirit’s use of spirit powers on itself. A spirit can always attempt to appear as another form of astral creature (even if not capable of astral projection), but masking itself as mundane would be entirely pointless unless it is joined to a physical body or has the realistic form power."

Note the very first and very last lines. It functions the same way as Masking and Extended Masking, and if the spirit's materialized form was realistic enough, such as with the two examples, it could look completely mundane despite being dual-natured. Because that's what Masking does.

[Ancient History]

Whatever your aura appears to be, I don't think you can change the fact that it is substantial on the astral plane when you're dual-natured. Admittedly, that's a personal opinion.

[Generic_PC]

In this game, where we've been encouraged to go wild, we have potentially one drake and potentially one free spirit. A Pixie or any infected character won't make it harder.

I've got three things that appeal to me currently. The Pixie Face I mentioned above, though not my first choice, still seems like a good bet.

A Human Ghoul with some mods (including cybereyes...) is currently what I like most...

I'm also looking at the prohibitive Banshee, depending on if I can get the DM to modify it slightly, as an Elf face. I plan on asking for a dropped regeneration and mist form and seeing where that'd get me for BPs. If it doesn't drop more than 10, I'll be scrapping that.

[toturi]

I'd argue it would be pretty weird to have a mundane aura walking around on the astral plane. You can disguise what you look like, but you can't disguise the fact that you're dual-natured or astrally perceiving.

Exactly. It does not disguise the fact that the character has an astral form. He can make his astral form look mundane.