Hey Dumpshock

We are a local group that have been playing shadowrun 4th for some time now, and we always have the mage with manabolt and powerbolt, but now i been reading the rules again and again, but we disagree with how it is resisted

when u launch manabolt/powerbolt its a direct spell that hits from the inside out, so no armour for resistence. u resist the spell with willpower.

where we disagree in our group is do u or do u not get a damage resistence check?

i am convised that when some one cast manabolt, u first resist the spell, and if u dont succed on that test, u get your body for a resistence test afterward to see how much of the damage u shake off.

The others are convinsed that if u dont resist the spell, u will take the damage with no test at all.
force 6 manabolt, 4 succeses, the reciver of the spell make his willpower + counterspelling gets 2 succes, that its 8 damage boxes filled, NO DAMAGE RESISTENCE

can someone help me out here?? and could you help understand the text in Rulebook??

Greeting
The Dread Ham

I think it is in fact unresisted, but can't check it out ATM. That is part of what makes magic so absurdly powerful, and why the rule GTMF exists (Get The Mage First). I know for sure that you don't get armor, not sure if you get body or not on P damage spells, but I don't think you do, because otherwise it would be 'unfair' to the S damage spells which don't get resisted a second time.

The Opposed Test to the Spellcasting Test is the Damage Resistance Test when it comes to spells like Manabolt. There is no second roll; if the spell succeeds, it affects you as dictated by the base damage plus net hits. Counterspelling acts as the defender's dodge/armor, helping out quite a bit (and it stacks with multiple counterspellers). That means you can also have a spirit using Magical Guard protecting you, too. There's also Magic Resitance, Arcane Arrester, Astral Hazing, and a few other similar abilities you can take to protect yourself from magic. This is one of the main reasons you should consider a high Willpower and (for some illusions) Intuition score on your gunbunny characters. You can actually get a lot more dice on the Opposed Test against a spell than you can against most physical attacks (barring absurd amounts of armor, but that can easily be at least partially bypassed, too).

It's magic. It's supposed to be scary, hence the "kill the mage first" mantra.

Cool thx for the quick reply ^^ well gonna take the advise and start kill mages first...

Here's a summary:

- Direct Mana spell:
- Cast. If you have at least one success, you hit
- Target resist with Willpower

- Direct Physical spell:
- Cast. If you have at least one success, you hit
- Target resist with Body

- Indirect Physical spell:
- Cast. If you have at least one success, target can evade
- Evade. Target makes Reaction test. Any hit reduces your successes (total becomes net hit)
- If caster has at least 1 hit, target resists using Body + Impact (can be impact divided by 2)

Note: in all cases, even if you roll 50 dice, the maximum number of successes (not hit) you can keep is equal to the spell force you cast.

Hope this helps

Why would anyone ever want to cast Indirect spells?? okay character concept are a reason but cant see any other, the direct are easier to drain and much more difficult to resist??

The best reason to cast indirect spells are for the secondary effects. The incapacitating/short-circuiting effect of lightning bolts...the secondary fires from fireballs, etc.

You wouldn't, especially with SR4A, where Counterspelling is added to the dodge roll instead of the damage resistance. A few saving graces for the indirect spells however are:
- indirect area spells can affect targets you don't see
- No OR
- secondary effects

They are pretty crappy. It's usually better to just summon a spirit with Elemental Attack. That basically gives you indirect combat spells complete with secondary effects, but for minimal drain (comparatively). And you can "cast" it multiple times per drain. A Force 6 spirit will be throwing 12 dice and doing 6P damage per bolt. If you have access to Invoking, great form spirits can even use them as an LOS(A) "spell" that only targets your enemies. So you could have it launch one point blank that completely ignores you and your buddies, but blasts everyone and everything else.

awesome ^^ thx for the great respons

Indirect spells can also be more effective against drones
The 20th anniversary book raises the object resistance table. six hits are required to affect highly processed objects like a drone instead of four, (and as such a force six spell). If you've been injured, and are already taking vision penalties to see the target this could make netting the required number of hits difficult. Not everyone makes munchkins their dice pools. It also added a little bit about every net hit to increase the damage adds +1 to the drain.


Though I really think they need to swap the drain values of direct and indirect combat spells.
Manaballs has a drain of (F ÷ 2) + 2, fireball has (F ÷ 2) + 5. Manaball should be the +5(with the rule of +1 drain per net hit added to damage) and fireball (F ÷ 2) + 2. If say casting a force six manaball scoring six net hits. (for a total of 12 damage) had a drain of 14. People would think twice about using it.
Actually that kind of dramatic increase in drain may be a step to far.

You can actually have a lot of fun with visibility modifiers spells are subject to nor, say you have about a 12 die pool for infiltration and your wearing a chameleon suit. (-4 to perception to spot you) Now a mage could use astral perception to spot by your aura. However auras alone can not be targeted.(unless your dual-natured like a ghoul or astral perceiving yourself) He has to see you physically to target you with manabolt. And seeing your aura will tell him where to look on the material but give him automatic success on his perception test.

Wrong.

Jack--Unless you are using the optional rule to increase Drain by hits used, the Drain Value would be 8 ((6 ÷ 2) + 5) If you are using the optional rule, then ((6 ÷ 2) + 2 + 6) for a Drain Value of 11 would be high enough without swapping the +2 for +5.

I believe that they raised the OR for Highly Processed Objects (Computers, Complex Toxic Wastes, Drones, Vehicles) to 5+, not 6+. Still, the original point is valid. If you're attacking a relatively small drone you still need minimum a force 5 powerbolt with 5 successes to do anything. Depending on visibility, wounds, distractions, and background count it might take several turns to accomplish. Lightning bolt halves armor (and I believe ignores metal armor), so you've got a good chance of damaging a drone even at force 3 with a couple successes. And subject to GM interpretation, any time you do damage with the indirect spell you can apply the secondary stunning/short-circuiting effect, thereby buying you a bit more time.

NO you are wrong,
Unless you are astrally projecting, dual natured or a spirit. You don't have an astral form.
You must be active on the astral plane to have an astral form. See auras and astral forms page 191.

Read that entire passage on page 183 again, like the two or three sentences before your quote.
It says right in there auras alone cannot be targeted). and a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form

An Astrally perceiving magician or otherwise dual natured can simply choose between either option, no astral form=no astral targeting.

Bishop I was including the rule and I did say it was probably a step to far.
Now Force 6/2+5=8+6 hits=14. I was speaking of using both things together.

Apathy: The rules change PDF says five. The actually book says six.

An astrally perceiving character can cast spells on both planes. As such the target does not need an astral form.

Jack--Understood, which is why I said that 11 would probably be high enough. The optional rule was put in place to raise the Drain on Direct Combat spells, I agreed with your assessment that 14 was to high, and feel that one option or the other would be fine. Doing both is too much.

RE: Object Resistance - The first gen PDF of SR4A had the 6+ Object Resistance, and some items set as standard which were changed to Optional Rules before the publication of the printed version. The Rules Change document uses the changes which match the Printed Version. SR4A, p. 183, should show 1/2/3/5+

Where does it say he doesn't need an astral form to target, astrally. No where.
It doesn't say it changes the basic rules of targeting with spells. It simply says the astrally perceiving magician has a choice to cast spells on either plane. As opposed to a physical or astral bound mage who can only target spells on the plane he is on.

If your not active on the astral plane you have no form, only a reflection, an insubstantial shadows called an aura. How do you target that? you don't which is why the book says "auras alone can not be targeted" The very description of an aura precludes it being used alone for targeting.

It doesn't say that your target needs an astral form if you cast a spell on the physical plane either. Only spells cast on the astral plane need astral forms as targets-
This refers only to projecting mages who naturally can only cast spells on the astral plane. The dual-natured mage has to target all targets with his astral senses since he switches off his normal ones as soon as he perceives astrally:

It does say the target needs a physical form to target on the physical plane. A creature with out a physical form can only be targeted astrally as their is nothing physical to target.
By that same token a creature with out an astral form can't be hit astrally, now "auras alone can not be used for targeting" aside because I found something new.

On page 176 it says the targeting and casting of a spell occurs.[its to long to paraphrase or quote the whole thing]

To cast a spell, a magician channels mana through herself and transmits it on a specific frequency
The target of the spell is the radio signal receiver, and the signal is sent on the target’s frequency.
All of this occurs on the same plane—physical or astral—as the magician and the target.
*You may have to read the whole passage in the lower right corner*

So that would mean spell targeted astrally affects the target in the astral plane, and as spell targeted through meat eyes affects the physical plane he is not active on the astral plane. You can't target him, because obviously he can't be seen.

So back to my original thing.
Say Jack is sneaking up towards the magician. Jack rolls 12 dice on his infiltration and is wearing a Chameleon suit, the mage rolls 4 dice on his perception.
(Intuition five, -4 for Chameleon suit, +3 because he's actively looking). He noticed Jack's aura through assencing. But failed his perception test to spot him physically. Which is to be expected when its 4v12
Now he can't target Jack from physical perception for obvious reasons he can't see him he failed the perception test.

He saw his metahuman aura through astral perception which is why he knew to be actively looking, however that does help him target a direct spell because either auras alone can't be used for targeting OR, because targeting the aura would cause the spell to occur on the astral plane because the targeting of a spell and where it goes off occurs on the she same plane

One limitation to keep in mind for spells is that spellcasting hits are limited to the Force of the spell. And that's not net hits. That's hits, period. In other words, if you are casting a Force: 5 spell, you can get 5 hits at the most, before the target resists the spell. Furthermore, visual modifiers and background count both reduce a mage's dice pool (try not to overuse the latter, though - even background count: 1 is slightly unusual).

Also, I would recommend against the optional rule for increasing direct combat spell drain. It penalizes characters for success, encourages overcasting, and is a clunky, cumbersome rule to add in. Mages need some quick, dirty, spells with Drain that is relatively easy to soak, in order to be effective in combat.

On direct vs. indirect spell Drain, keep in mind that spell Drain is not solely based on how effective they are, but on how much energy it takes to create such an effect. Summoning a bolt of napalm should be a lot more tiring than simply zapping magical energy right into a target, even if the former isn't as effective most of the time.

Then make the quick and dirty spells elemental(also remove counterspelling as a defense dodge defense against them) and the high drain the more damaging ones.
So manaball's drain is force/2x+5 and fireball is force/2+2
And the optional rule gives the idea that channeling mana directly into the target is more difficult then creating an external affect.

Making elemental spells have less Drain than direct combat spells breaks the verisimilitude of the game world to me, and the optional rule for combat spells flies in the face of how they have consistently been handled across every edition of the game. Which also breaks the verisimilitude of the game for me - the rules of the universe shouldn't change without notice.

One could easily say that changing the life energy of mana directly into destructive energy is more difficult then changing it into another form of energy like fire. Mana is life after all. The rules of the universe change in some ways every edition. The only other option I see it to make direct spells easier to resist. Like manabolt and stun are willpower+willpower, and say powerbolt is body+willpower. And really removing counterspelling from dodging a fireball or some other element. Just because direct combat spells have always dominated combat magic almost completely doesn't mean they should continue to.

i wonder if the easiest way to make indirect spells interesting would be to remove the force cap on hits, as its basically shooting a magical bullet, and guns do not come with a cap on the number of hits...