Hey Dumpshock

We are a local group that have been playing shadowrun 4th for some time now, and we always have the mage with manabolt and powerbolt, but now i been reading the rules again and again, but we disagree with how it is resisted

when u launch manabolt/powerbolt its a direct spell that hits from the inside out, so no armour for resistence. u resist the spell with willpower.

where we disagree in our group is do u or do u not get a damage resistence check?

i am convised that when some one cast manabolt, u first resist the spell, and if u dont succed on that test, u get your body for a resistence test afterward to see how much of the damage u shake off.

The others are convinsed that if u dont resist the spell, u will take the damage with no test at all.
force 6 manabolt, 4 succeses, the reciver of the spell make his willpower + counterspelling gets 2 succes, that its 8 damage boxes filled, NO DAMAGE RESISTENCE

can someone help me out here?? and could you help understand the text in Rulebook??

Greeting
The Dread Ham

I think it is in fact unresisted, but can't check it out ATM. That is part of what makes magic so absurdly powerful, and why the rule GTMF exists (Get The Mage First). I know for sure that you don't get armor, not sure if you get body or not on P damage spells, but I don't think you do, because otherwise it would be 'unfair' to the S damage spells which don't get resisted a second time.

The Opposed Test to the Spellcasting Test is the Damage Resistance Test when it comes to spells like Manabolt. There is no second roll; if the spell succeeds, it affects you as dictated by the base damage plus net hits. Counterspelling acts as the defender's dodge/armor, helping out quite a bit (and it stacks with multiple counterspellers). That means you can also have a spirit using Magical Guard protecting you, too. There's also Magic Resitance, Arcane Arrester, Astral Hazing, and a few other similar abilities you can take to protect yourself from magic. This is one of the main reasons you should consider a high Willpower and (for some illusions) Intuition score on your gunbunny characters. You can actually get a lot more dice on the Opposed Test against a spell than you can against most physical attacks (barring absurd amounts of armor, but that can easily be at least partially bypassed, too).

It's magic. It's supposed to be scary, hence the "kill the mage first" mantra.

Cool thx for the quick reply ^^ well gonna take the advise and start kill mages first...

Here's a summary:

- Direct Mana spell:
- Cast. If you have at least one success, you hit
- Target resist with Willpower

- Direct Physical spell:
- Cast. If you have at least one success, you hit
- Target resist with Body

- Indirect Physical spell:
- Cast. If you have at least one success, target can evade
- Evade. Target makes Reaction test. Any hit reduces your successes (total becomes net hit)
- If caster has at least 1 hit, target resists using Body + Impact (can be impact divided by 2)

Note: in all cases, even if you roll 50 dice, the maximum number of successes (not hit) you can keep is equal to the spell force you cast.

Hope this helps

Why would anyone ever want to cast Indirect spells?? okay character concept are a reason but cant see any other, the direct are easier to drain and much more difficult to resist??

The best reason to cast indirect spells are for the secondary effects. The incapacitating/short-circuiting effect of lightning bolts...the secondary fires from fireballs, etc.

You wouldn't, especially with SR4A, where Counterspelling is added to the dodge roll instead of the damage resistance. A few saving graces for the indirect spells however are:
- indirect area spells can affect targets you don't see
- No OR
- secondary effects

They are pretty crappy. It's usually better to just summon a spirit with Elemental Attack. That basically gives you indirect combat spells complete with secondary effects, but for minimal drain (comparatively). And you can "cast" it multiple times per drain. A Force 6 spirit will be throwing 12 dice and doing 6P damage per bolt. If you have access to Invoking, great form spirits can even use them as an LOS(A) "spell" that only targets your enemies. So you could have it launch one point blank that completely ignores you and your buddies, but blasts everyone and everything else.

awesome ^^ thx for the great respons

Indirect spells can also be more effective against drones
The 20th anniversary book raises the object resistance table. six hits are required to affect highly processed objects like a drone instead of four, (and as such a force six spell). If you've been injured, and are already taking vision penalties to see the target this could make netting the required number of hits difficult. Not everyone makes munchkins their dice pools. It also added a little bit about every net hit to increase the damage adds +1 to the drain.


Though I really think they need to swap the drain values of direct and indirect combat spells.
Manaballs has a drain of (F ÷ 2) + 2, fireball has (F ÷ 2) + 5. Manaball should be the +5(with the rule of +1 drain per net hit added to damage) and fireball (F ÷ 2) + 2. If say casting a force six manaball scoring six net hits. (for a total of 12 damage) had a drain of 14. People would think twice about using it.
Actually that kind of dramatic increase in drain may be a step to far.

You can actually have a lot of fun with visibility modifiers spells are subject to nor, say you have about a 12 die pool for infiltration and your wearing a chameleon suit. (-4 to perception to spot you) Now a mage could use astral perception to spot by your aura. However auras alone can not be targeted.(unless your dual-natured like a ghoul or astral perceiving yourself) He has to see you physically to target you with manabolt. And seeing your aura will tell him where to look on the material but give him automatic success on his perception test.

Wrong.

Jack--Unless you are using the optional rule to increase Drain by hits used, the Drain Value would be 8 ((6 ÷ 2) + 5) If you are using the optional rule, then ((6 ÷ 2) + 2 + 6) for a Drain Value of 11 would be high enough without swapping the +2 for +5.

I believe that they raised the OR for Highly Processed Objects (Computers, Complex Toxic Wastes, Drones, Vehicles) to 5+, not 6+. Still, the original point is valid. If you're attacking a relatively small drone you still need minimum a force 5 powerbolt with 5 successes to do anything. Depending on visibility, wounds, distractions, and background count it might take several turns to accomplish. Lightning bolt halves armor (and I believe ignores metal armor), so you've got a good chance of damaging a drone even at force 3 with a couple successes. And subject to GM interpretation, any time you do damage with the indirect spell you can apply the secondary stunning/short-circuiting effect, thereby buying you a bit more time.

NO you are wrong,
Unless you are astrally projecting, dual natured or a spirit. You don't have an astral form.
You must be active on the astral plane to have an astral form. See auras and astral forms page 191.

Read that entire passage on page 183 again, like the two or three sentences before your quote.
It says right in there auras alone cannot be targeted). and a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form

An Astrally perceiving magician or otherwise dual natured can simply choose between either option, no astral form=no astral targeting.

Bishop I was including the rule and I did say it was probably a step to far.
Now Force 6/2+5=8+6 hits=14. I was speaking of using both things together.

Apathy: The rules change PDF says five. The actually book says six.

An astrally perceiving character can cast spells on both planes. As such the target does not need an astral form.

Jack--Understood, which is why I said that 11 would probably be high enough. The optional rule was put in place to raise the Drain on Direct Combat spells, I agreed with your assessment that 14 was to high, and feel that one option or the other would be fine. Doing both is too much.

RE: Object Resistance - The first gen PDF of SR4A had the 6+ Object Resistance, and some items set as standard which were changed to Optional Rules before the publication of the printed version. The Rules Change document uses the changes which match the Printed Version. SR4A, p. 183, should show 1/2/3/5+

Where does it say he doesn't need an astral form to target, astrally. No where.
It doesn't say it changes the basic rules of targeting with spells. It simply says the astrally perceiving magician has a choice to cast spells on either plane. As opposed to a physical or astral bound mage who can only target spells on the plane he is on.

If your not active on the astral plane you have no form, only a reflection, an insubstantial shadows called an aura. How do you target that? you don't which is why the book says "auras alone can not be targeted" The very description of an aura precludes it being used alone for targeting.

It doesn't say that your target needs an astral form if you cast a spell on the physical plane either. Only spells cast on the astral plane need astral forms as targets-
This refers only to projecting mages who naturally can only cast spells on the astral plane. The dual-natured mage has to target all targets with his astral senses since he switches off his normal ones as soon as he perceives astrally:

It does say the target needs a physical form to target on the physical plane. A creature with out a physical form can only be targeted astrally as their is nothing physical to target.
By that same token a creature with out an astral form can't be hit astrally, now "auras alone can not be used for targeting" aside because I found something new.

On page 176 it says the targeting and casting of a spell occurs.[its to long to paraphrase or quote the whole thing]

To cast a spell, a magician channels mana through herself and transmits it on a specific frequency
The target of the spell is the radio signal receiver, and the signal is sent on the target’s frequency.
All of this occurs on the same plane—physical or astral—as the magician and the target.
*You may have to read the whole passage in the lower right corner*

So that would mean spell targeted astrally affects the target in the astral plane, and as spell targeted through meat eyes affects the physical plane he is not active on the astral plane. You can't target him, because obviously he can't be seen.

So back to my original thing.
Say Jack is sneaking up towards the magician. Jack rolls 12 dice on his infiltration and is wearing a Chameleon suit, the mage rolls 4 dice on his perception.
(Intuition five, -4 for Chameleon suit, +3 because he's actively looking). He noticed Jack's aura through assencing. But failed his perception test to spot him physically. Which is to be expected when its 4v12
Now he can't target Jack from physical perception for obvious reasons he can't see him he failed the perception test.

He saw his metahuman aura through astral perception which is why he knew to be actively looking, however that does help him target a direct spell because either auras alone can't be used for targeting OR, because targeting the aura would cause the spell to occur on the astral plane because the targeting of a spell and where it goes off occurs on the she same plane

One limitation to keep in mind for spells is that spellcasting hits are limited to the Force of the spell. And that's not net hits. That's hits, period. In other words, if you are casting a Force: 5 spell, you can get 5 hits at the most, before the target resists the spell. Furthermore, visual modifiers and background count both reduce a mage's dice pool (try not to overuse the latter, though - even background count: 1 is slightly unusual).

Also, I would recommend against the optional rule for increasing direct combat spell drain. It penalizes characters for success, encourages overcasting, and is a clunky, cumbersome rule to add in. Mages need some quick, dirty, spells with Drain that is relatively easy to soak, in order to be effective in combat.

On direct vs. indirect spell Drain, keep in mind that spell Drain is not solely based on how effective they are, but on how much energy it takes to create such an effect. Summoning a bolt of napalm should be a lot more tiring than simply zapping magical energy right into a target, even if the former isn't as effective most of the time.

Then make the quick and dirty spells elemental(also remove counterspelling as a defense dodge defense against them) and the high drain the more damaging ones.
So manaball's drain is force/2x+5 and fireball is force/2+2
And the optional rule gives the idea that channeling mana directly into the target is more difficult then creating an external affect.

Making elemental spells have less Drain than direct combat spells breaks the verisimilitude of the game world to me, and the optional rule for combat spells flies in the face of how they have consistently been handled across every edition of the game. Which also breaks the verisimilitude of the game for me - the rules of the universe shouldn't change without notice.

One could easily say that changing the life energy of mana directly into destructive energy is more difficult then changing it into another form of energy like fire. Mana is life after all. The rules of the universe change in some ways every edition. The only other option I see it to make direct spells easier to resist. Like manabolt and stun are willpower+willpower, and say powerbolt is body+willpower. And really removing counterspelling from dodging a fireball or some other element. Just because direct combat spells have always dominated combat magic almost completely doesn't mean they should continue to.

i wonder if the easiest way to make indirect spells interesting would be to remove the force cap on hits, as its basically shooting a magical bullet, and guns do not come with a cap on the number of hits...

1.) This section is pure fluff so more or less irrelevant. 2.)Using this as rules would contradict the real rule of for all but touch range spells, since the astrally perceiving mage does not perceive with his meat senses. I quoted that passage earlier.

Well then explain this,
to target a creature with a direct combat spell you have to see it. There is no argument there.

An aura is a reflection of a non-active entity on the astral plane. If all the mage can see is the reflection of the metahuman how can he target him with a spell.

An astral perceiving magician can also still see the meat world in away. A Car or a corpse would have no aura, neither would many other objects but the mage can still see them. By that same token their would be a difference between seeing the metahumans body and his aura

OR maybe the rule about normal visibility modifiers applying to spellcasting is just completely pointless.

Because, when you use your astral senses (i.e. you are astrally perceiving) you cannot use your meat senses (i.e. normal perception).
As such you could only use touch range spells on the physical plane, since in your opinion you need your physical senses to cast a spell there. This severely restricts the rule that, while astrally perceiving, you can cast spells on both planes. I don't think this is the intention nor the actual wording of the rules, because needing to use the senses of the appropriate plane is only ever mentioned in the fluff.

Now the explanation: You astrally perceive the aura of a creature then you target the point in (meat) space that corresponds to the astral location of the aura. Since the aura and the target are in the same place, the mana is channeled from your meat location to the target's meat location. No problem there.

But you still don't really see him do you your targeting the space and not him. You could still use indirect spells as you can see the area where the spell would go off. Seeing the glow radiating out from behind where someone is hiding shouldn't make him a valid target. (if he's standing in the open there's no perception issue at all)

It really isn't fair to let astral perception 100% foil any infiltration roll. It should still be possible to know something is their by its glowing aura but still not be able to target it.

SR4A Pg. 191:
It takes a Simple Action to shift
one’s perception from the astral to the physical, and another to
shift it back again (it is not possible to see both at the same time,
though almost everything in physical space is reflected on the
astral, albeit without detail). A character using astral perception
is considered dual-natured, active on both the physical and astral
planes simultaneously.

That quote, combined with the one that states that Astrally Perceiving Magicians can target things on both the Physical and Astral proves that a Magician can target you with a spell in the physical via his Astral Sight. Since the Mage can only see in the Astral while using Astral Sight, but is allowed to target objects on either plane, then he only needs to be able to see them on the Astral (since that is the only way he can see them).

As I recall infiltration is just as effective against astral perception as against normal perception. I know it doesn't make a ton of sense, but I'm running a game with a ton of ghouls in it and a player quoted that at me to help resolve if infiltration would be any good at trying to get around them astrally perceiving someone. I'll look for the exact rule later, but something to think on.



It was actually more like half a sentence. The actual passage is:

So yes, when astrally perceiving you cannot target someone with a P spell except via a touch spell. In order to target a person (or even a point in space) you must be able to see it (There is no "I'm targeting x12345 y 3241 z-1245."). I think this is something that most people don't realize (Because the book doesn't make a big point of it). It also means you'll know if there is a mac truck coming down the road you are trying to cross.

Remember that in order to target something via astral perception of any kind (either by astrally perceiving or because you are in the astral plane) it must be astrally active. This is basically limited to astral entities and duel natured things (And some oddities like activated foci).

Oh, and here is the line (I think the one that was used) about why infiltration might affect being seen on the astral:


Obviously it doesn't say "Inflitration works against assensing." but it seems to imply it. It does however only seem to imply it for astral entities, not mundanes of any kind. It does seem to get around a mage (or spirit) being the perfect watchdog because it is impossible to hide from them otherwise because they just turn on their "So much better than thermographic, low-light, and ultrasound combined" vision.

Part of infiltration is smart use of cover, moving when people are looking in a different direction and so forth - which work perfectly fine against astral perception.

The real effect of astral perception is that it foils (standard) camo clothing and limits light penalties. That can still be enough to make infiltration hard though.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I need to figure out how to make astral camo now

Astral camo is tricky.. anything that lives is bright in the astral. I think astral disguise is more relevant than obscurement. Maybe a specially cultivated bio-paste that covers you with a very different astral coloration than metahumans normally have. Perhaps looking vegetable.

Of course, as with dressing up as a shrubbery, it doesn't work so well if you move about.

You do realize that this strange interpretation makes ghoul mages and all other mages who have lost their mundane vision useless? They cannot cast any spell but touch spells on any target that is not astrally active.
Could you actually quote something from the books confirming this. The books only say that the caster must be active on the same plane as the target and that he must be able to perceive the target. Nowhere does it say that he must use the senses corresponding to the plane. A dual-natured caster is by your own quote active on both planes simultaneously.

It's not a strange interpretation. The rules are just poorly written (as usual) and assume that the magician has physical sight. Which is exactly why they're able to cast spells on both planes, because they can see both planes simultaneously.

It also doesn't render anyone useless. Being blind as a mage is just as crippling as it is for anyone else. Well, significantly less than, actually. Touch spells still work fine against physical opponents and cybereyes -- which ghouls are specifically told are a good idea even for mundanes -- are available to give them back their vision. They're also still able to summon spirits and command them to materialize and attack physical targets that they're aware of via their astral perception. Just like a mage not using astral perception can order their spirits to attack astral forms.

I've made mention of all this several times, but people around here anymore are pretty thick about the topic. Their argument basically boils down to, "The rules say they can do it and I don't care if it breaks all the other rules regarding targeting or the whole philosophy thereof! Fuck in-game consistency! I can only read the rules as written and anyone who does have a lick of common sense on the topic is a big dumbass!"

Umm.. yeah, and your point is....? That being blind is a disadvantage? Well there is a surprise.







A character must be active on a particular plane to cast there. Please note that this is different from perceiving a particular plane. An astrally perceiving mage is active on both the physical and astral plane, but can only perceive on the astral plane. In order to target something you must perceive it on the plane you wish to act on. There is no "I'm going to target that spot right there, only on the other plane.", either you perceieve the target on the plane you wish to cast on, or you do not cast.

For a touch range spell the perception comes in the form of touching the target, which can of course only occur on a plane in which both you and the target are active.

So yes, blind mages are fairly useless when it comes to casting non-touch range physical spells because they can never see anything to target it. Shouldn't be such a huge surprise, blind gunbunnies aren't much good at shooting stuff they can't see either.

Edit: And Woo for Dr. F and I agreeing on something on here. A rare and scary occurrence indeed.

How would this interpretation impact the use of dual-natured critters and [manifested] spirits using Innate spells. Because they're dual natured, they're always considered to be astrally percieving. Which means that they're not physically percieving. Which would by extension mean that they couldn't cast their innate spells at anything without an astral form, right? While it may be technically correct (not convinced yet, but a possibility), I don't think that it's what the writers intended.

AFAIK astral perception as by a mage is different than a truly duel natured being. There are two possibilities that make sense as far as game balance and so on is concerned. Creatures that are duel natured (critters and manifested spirits and such) operate in one of the following two ways. 1. They, unlike a mage, can see on both astral and physical plane at the same time. or 2. They can switch between watching the astral and physical as free action like a mage, but since they are duel natured by definition, which one they are watching doesn't affect the fact that they exist in both the physical and astral planes.

I think explanation 2 makes more sense as it follows along with mages. The main difference is that for a mage, astral perception grants them duel natured status, where as with other things, being duel natured is just how they are, so astrally perceiving or not doesn't affect them.

Not sure how to compare it. Was trying to come up with something with blind people and seeing, but can't quite make it work. I suppose you can look at it like this:
Astrally Perceiving (AP) puts someone on the astral plane(A).
Looking around physically puts someone on the physical plane(P) and requires access to that plane.
Thus a mage is normally restricted to P, but when he uses AP, he gets pushed into A, and thus is A and P.
A duel natured creature is in both A and P, and thus using AP doesn't shift anything, nor does not using AP.
And of course a creature purely on A can't look around physically because it doesn't have access to P.

Thus you have three states of being: A, P, and A/P
And two states of vision: A and P
In order to affect something, you and your target must both exist on the same plane, and you must be seeing on that plane.

Seems like a lot of arguing over nothing to me.

Astral perception is still opposed by infiltration.
Astral Line of sight is still blocked by physical objects.

In the example given above, the only difference would be elimination of the chameleon armor penalty. I can see both points of view having equal validity, but in the end, it ends up being one or two dice difference. Possibly there will be a second die roll involved, as the mage finds the infiltrator using astral sight, then gets a second check physical with a bonus. I think unless someone can get a definitive ruling and an errata published, it will be a point of contention for some time. So here is the answer according to Orcus! This is as nearly canon as you can get, because I said it.

Unless there is some really pressing reason why the mage should be screwed (blindness, background count, etc...) Allow them to use astral perception to target spells. If you wish apply a -2 to the initial astral perception check, as they are distracted by comparing physical and astral. Everyone should be happy.

An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician
can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if
the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no
physical presence. Pg. 183 SR4 A

It takes a Simple Action to shift
one’s perception from the astral to the physical, and another to
shift it back again (it is not possible to see both at the same time,
though almost everything in physical space is reflected on the
astral, albeit without detail). A character using astral perception
is considered dual-natured, active on both the physical and astral
planes simultaneously. Pg. 191 SR4A

So, let's look at this. Pg 183 says that a Astral Perceiving Mage can cast on both planes. Pg 191 says that a Astral Perceiving Mage can only see on one plane at a time. So, even if the Mage is perceiving on the Astral, he CAN target things in the Physical, because part of his spirit is still active on the physical. The only reason there is an 'or' in the quote from Pg 183 is because an area cannot target things on both planes at the same time (ie. the spirit on the astral standing right next to the sammie on the physical). It is as simple as that.

Edit: So yes, actually, a blind mage can target physical objects while astrally perceiving.

It doesn't mention anything about being able to target anything with vision. A mage can for example cast physical touch spells, as they don't require LoS. There is a very important difference between being able to cast a spell, and being able to target something. Just because I can cast a spell, doesn't mean I can target someone on the other side of the planet.

You really have to be careful about using words interchangeably when they are very different. Cast and Target are very different words.

Being dual-natured is exactly the same as astrally perceiving except where specifically stated (such as spirits not being able to interact with video screens for some stupid reason). In fact, they're better at it as they don't suffer the -2 dice pool penalty when interacting with physical objects. They are using physical sight as much as astral sight. Hence the whole "dual" part of "dual-natured."

Where, exactly, does it say that the mage doesn't have to spend the Simple Action to shift from one to the other in order to cast a spell. It simply says they can cast on either plane, because they are in fact active on both, but not that it in any way negates the requirements of casting on a specific plane. It's all in the same paragraph you quoted, even.

Considering that it worked exactly the same way in previous editions, too, and that this would require a complete reworking of all things magic in order for it to work properly... chances are the writing for the rules is just really shitty. Again, as usual.

Because when you spend the simple action to change your sight to Physical, then you are no longer Astral Perceiving. The quote about it taking a Simple Action to switch back and forth is for combat, for determining how long it takes the Magician to switch his sight (since that is not covered in the section about Astral Perception).

Just another interesting point: Contrary to SR4 and SR4A Running Wild does not state that dual-natured critters perceive both planes simultaneously. They are only active on both planes at the same time. Since the power is always on, they can no longer target anything on the physical plane by Karoline's interpretation. Yay to most people Wendigos have just become fluffy orks with peculiar dietary habits. that's a lot less scary.