1.) This section is pure fluff so more or less irrelevant. 2.)Using this as rules would contradict the real rule of for all but touch range spells, since the astrally perceiving mage does not perceive with his meat senses. I quoted that passage earlier.

Well then explain this,
to target a creature with a direct combat spell you have to see it. There is no argument there.

An aura is a reflection of a non-active entity on the astral plane. If all the mage can see is the reflection of the metahuman how can he target him with a spell.

An astral perceiving magician can also still see the meat world in away. A Car or a corpse would have no aura, neither would many other objects but the mage can still see them. By that same token their would be a difference between seeing the metahumans body and his aura

OR maybe the rule about normal visibility modifiers applying to spellcasting is just completely pointless.

Because, when you use your astral senses (i.e. you are astrally perceiving) you cannot use your meat senses (i.e. normal perception).
As such you could only use touch range spells on the physical plane, since in your opinion you need your physical senses to cast a spell there. This severely restricts the rule that, while astrally perceiving, you can cast spells on both planes. I don't think this is the intention nor the actual wording of the rules, because needing to use the senses of the appropriate plane is only ever mentioned in the fluff.

Now the explanation: You astrally perceive the aura of a creature then you target the point in (meat) space that corresponds to the astral location of the aura. Since the aura and the target are in the same place, the mana is channeled from your meat location to the target's meat location. No problem there.

But you still don't really see him do you your targeting the space and not him. You could still use indirect spells as you can see the area where the spell would go off. Seeing the glow radiating out from behind where someone is hiding shouldn't make him a valid target. (if he's standing in the open there's no perception issue at all)

It really isn't fair to let astral perception 100% foil any infiltration roll. It should still be possible to know something is their by its glowing aura but still not be able to target it.

SR4A Pg. 191:
It takes a Simple Action to shift
one’s perception from the astral to the physical, and another to
shift it back again (it is not possible to see both at the same time,
though almost everything in physical space is reflected on the
astral, albeit without detail). A character using astral perception
is considered dual-natured, active on both the physical and astral
planes simultaneously.

That quote, combined with the one that states that Astrally Perceiving Magicians can target things on both the Physical and Astral proves that a Magician can target you with a spell in the physical via his Astral Sight. Since the Mage can only see in the Astral while using Astral Sight, but is allowed to target objects on either plane, then he only needs to be able to see them on the Astral (since that is the only way he can see them).

As I recall infiltration is just as effective against astral perception as against normal perception. I know it doesn't make a ton of sense, but I'm running a game with a ton of ghouls in it and a player quoted that at me to help resolve if infiltration would be any good at trying to get around them astrally perceiving someone. I'll look for the exact rule later, but something to think on.



It was actually more like half a sentence. The actual passage is:

So yes, when astrally perceiving you cannot target someone with a P spell except via a touch spell. In order to target a person (or even a point in space) you must be able to see it (There is no "I'm targeting x12345 y 3241 z-1245."). I think this is something that most people don't realize (Because the book doesn't make a big point of it). It also means you'll know if there is a mac truck coming down the road you are trying to cross.

Remember that in order to target something via astral perception of any kind (either by astrally perceiving or because you are in the astral plane) it must be astrally active. This is basically limited to astral entities and duel natured things (And some oddities like activated foci).

Oh, and here is the line (I think the one that was used) about why infiltration might affect being seen on the astral:


Obviously it doesn't say "Inflitration works against assensing." but it seems to imply it. It does however only seem to imply it for astral entities, not mundanes of any kind. It does seem to get around a mage (or spirit) being the perfect watchdog because it is impossible to hide from them otherwise because they just turn on their "So much better than thermographic, low-light, and ultrasound combined" vision.

Part of infiltration is smart use of cover, moving when people are looking in a different direction and so forth - which work perfectly fine against astral perception.

The real effect of astral perception is that it foils (standard) camo clothing and limits light penalties. That can still be enough to make infiltration hard though.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I need to figure out how to make astral camo now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Astral camo is tricky.. anything that lives is bright in the astral. I think astral disguise is more relevant than obscurement. Maybe a specially cultivated bio-paste that covers you with a very different astral coloration than metahumans normally have. Perhaps looking vegetable.

Of course, as with dressing up as a shrubbery, it doesn't work so well if you move about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

You do realize that this strange interpretation makes ghoul mages and all other mages who have lost their mundane vision useless? They cannot cast any spell but touch spells on any target that is not astrally active.
Could you actually quote something from the books confirming this. The books only say that the caster must be active on the same plane as the target and that he must be able to perceive the target. Nowhere does it say that he must use the senses corresponding to the plane. A dual-natured caster is by your own quote active on both planes simultaneously.

It's not a strange interpretation. The rules are just poorly written (as usual) and assume that the magician has physical sight. Which is exactly why they're able to cast spells on both planes, because they can see both planes simultaneously.

It also doesn't render anyone useless. Being blind as a mage is just as crippling as it is for anyone else. Well, significantly less than, actually. Touch spells still work fine against physical opponents and cybereyes -- which ghouls are specifically told are a good idea even for mundanes -- are available to give them back their vision. They're also still able to summon spirits and command them to materialize and attack physical targets that they're aware of via their astral perception. Just like a mage not using astral perception can order their spirits to attack astral forms.

I've made mention of all this several times, but people around here anymore are pretty thick about the topic. Their argument basically boils down to, "The rules say they can do it and I don't care if it breaks all the other rules regarding targeting or the whole philosophy thereof! Fuck in-game consistency! I can only read the rules as written and anyone who does have a lick of common sense on the topic is a big dumbass!"

Umm.. yeah, and your point is....? That being blind is a disadvantage? Well there is a surprise.







A character must be active on a particular plane to cast there. Please note that this is different from perceiving a particular plane. An astrally perceiving mage is active on both the physical and astral plane, but can only perceive on the astral plane. In order to target something you must perceive it on the plane you wish to act on. There is no "I'm going to target that spot right there, only on the other plane.", either you perceieve the target on the plane you wish to cast on, or you do not cast.

For a touch range spell the perception comes in the form of touching the target, which can of course only occur on a plane in which both you and the target are active.

So yes, blind mages are fairly useless when it comes to casting non-touch range physical spells because they can never see anything to target it. Shouldn't be such a huge surprise, blind gunbunnies aren't much good at shooting stuff they can't see either.

Edit: And Woo for Dr. F and I agreeing on something on here. A rare and scary occurrence indeed.

How would this interpretation impact the use of dual-natured critters and [manifested] spirits using Innate spells. Because they're dual natured, they're always considered to be astrally percieving. Which means that they're not physically percieving. Which would by extension mean that they couldn't cast their innate spells at anything without an astral form, right? While it may be technically correct (not convinced yet, but a possibility), I don't think that it's what the writers intended.

AFAIK astral perception as by a mage is different than a truly duel natured being. There are two possibilities that make sense as far as game balance and so on is concerned. Creatures that are duel natured (critters and manifested spirits and such) operate in one of the following two ways. 1. They, unlike a mage, can see on both astral and physical plane at the same time. or 2. They can switch between watching the astral and physical as free action like a mage, but since they are duel natured by definition, which one they are watching doesn't affect the fact that they exist in both the physical and astral planes.

I think explanation 2 makes more sense as it follows along with mages. The main difference is that for a mage, astral perception grants them duel natured status, where as with other things, being duel natured is just how they are, so astrally perceiving or not doesn't affect them.

Not sure how to compare it. Was trying to come up with something with blind people and seeing, but can't quite make it work. I suppose you can look at it like this:
Astrally Perceiving (AP) puts someone on the astral plane(A).
Looking around physically puts someone on the physical plane(P) and requires access to that plane.
Thus a mage is normally restricted to P, but when he uses AP, he gets pushed into A, and thus is A and P.
A duel natured creature is in both A and P, and thus using AP doesn't shift anything, nor does not using AP.
And of course a creature purely on A can't look around physically because it doesn't have access to P.

Thus you have three states of being: A, P, and A/P
And two states of vision: A and P
In order to affect something, you and your target must both exist on the same plane, and you must be seeing on that plane.

Seems like a lot of arguing over nothing to me.

Astral perception is still opposed by infiltration.
Astral Line of sight is still blocked by physical objects.

In the example given above, the only difference would be elimination of the chameleon armor penalty. I can see both points of view having equal validity, but in the end, it ends up being one or two dice difference. Possibly there will be a second die roll involved, as the mage finds the infiltrator using astral sight, then gets a second check physical with a bonus. I think unless someone can get a definitive ruling and an errata published, it will be a point of contention for some time. So here is the answer according to Orcus! This is as nearly canon as you can get, because I said it.

Unless there is some really pressing reason why the mage should be screwed (blindness, background count, etc...) Allow them to use astral perception to target spells. If you wish apply a -2 to the initial astral perception check, as they are distracted by comparing physical and astral. Everyone should be happy.

An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician
can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if
the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no
physical presence. Pg. 183 SR4 A

It takes a Simple Action to shift
one’s perception from the astral to the physical, and another to
shift it back again (it is not possible to see both at the same time,
though almost everything in physical space is reflected on the
astral, albeit without detail). A character using astral perception
is considered dual-natured, active on both the physical and astral
planes simultaneously. Pg. 191 SR4A

So, let's look at this. Pg 183 says that a Astral Perceiving Mage can cast on both planes. Pg 191 says that a Astral Perceiving Mage can only see on one plane at a time. So, even if the Mage is perceiving on the Astral, he CAN target things in the Physical, because part of his spirit is still active on the physical. The only reason there is an 'or' in the quote from Pg 183 is because an area cannot target things on both planes at the same time (ie. the spirit on the astral standing right next to the sammie on the physical). It is as simple as that.

Edit: So yes, actually, a blind mage can target physical objects while astrally perceiving.

It doesn't mention anything about being able to target anything with vision. A mage can for example cast physical touch spells, as they don't require LoS. There is a very important difference between being able to cast a spell, and being able to target something. Just because I can cast a spell, doesn't mean I can target someone on the other side of the planet.

You really have to be careful about using words interchangeably when they are very different. Cast and Target are very different words.

Being dual-natured is exactly the same as astrally perceiving except where specifically stated (such as spirits not being able to interact with video screens for some stupid reason). In fact, they're better at it as they don't suffer the -2 dice pool penalty when interacting with physical objects. They are using physical sight as much as astral sight. Hence the whole "dual" part of "dual-natured."

Where, exactly, does it say that the mage doesn't have to spend the Simple Action to shift from one to the other in order to cast a spell. It simply says they can cast on either plane, because they are in fact active on both, but not that it in any way negates the requirements of casting on a specific plane. It's all in the same paragraph you quoted, even.

Considering that it worked exactly the same way in previous editions, too, and that this would require a complete reworking of all things magic in order for it to work properly... chances are the writing for the rules is just really shitty. Again, as usual.

Because when you spend the simple action to change your sight to Physical, then you are no longer Astral Perceiving. The quote about it taking a Simple Action to switch back and forth is for combat, for determining how long it takes the Magician to switch his sight (since that is not covered in the section about Astral Perception).

Just another interesting point: Contrary to SR4 and SR4A Running Wild does not state that dual-natured critters perceive both planes simultaneously. They are only active on both planes at the same time. Since the power is always on, they can no longer target anything on the physical plane by Karoline's interpretation. Yay to most people Wendigos have just become fluffy orks with peculiar dietary habits. that's a lot less scary.