Magic comes from the rulebooks?

Thanks, folks. This thread is just about what I expected it to be, informative on many levels. Keep it going.

The most simple counterargument would be that it assumes an exact cause and reason for everything, instead of things which just are. Yep, we also did this in school ^^

For example (which brings us right back to the topic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) ) I see this whole "cycle of magic" thing in SR as simply a given fact of the universe, it exists for the same reason that the Galaxy is spinning.

The big problem with arguments for or against religion/spirituality is that most religious claims cannot be proven or disproven. Yup, I did this in school too.

I actually know how to very easily get a 400 BP character who has right around 30 karma to eminate a R4 Aspected Backround Count that can quite easily shoot up to 12, which means I can cast in space no problem.

EDIT: (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Here's the single most effcient counter-argument: First Law of Thermodynimcs. God either IS part of the physical realm (which means he is subject to its laws and can at least potentially bemeasured and detected, or more precisely the change in energy states he causes) or he can not influence the physical realm at all. Problem solved.

Back on topic: Ancient History nailed it. Earthdawn is the semi-official background to Shadowrun. As such, explanations for the cycle of magic from Earthdawn are fully applicable to the cycle of magic in SR.

Space is a void/ebb, not a count/domain/warp. -12 rather than +12. If it still works, spill.


Step 1: Start playing a Nethermancer or Wizard or Elementalist.
Step 2: ????
Step 3: PROFIT!! (For the corps who abducted you.)

No sir. Deep space is a -12: this is beyond Pluto. Inside that is a lower BC. If you look at the examples, the moon has a BC of either 7 or 8 (I forget which one), and as long as the BC stays at 11 or lower, your BC of 12 superceeds it fully.

Also, don't forget that you use the absolute value of Backround Count: you ignore the +/-. Just look at the number itself. If you have a BC of -6, and bring in a BC of 7, you're in BC 7, not BC 1.

I'm not sure what exactly would happen if you get two R12 BC's overlapping, particularly if one is Aspected to yourself. The rules say you take the highest BC, which is 12, and you're in an Aspected Domain, but I'm not sure if you retain your Aspected Domain or if the other BC interferes...

Page 118, Street Magic, in the first sentence of Backround Count and Magic. Read it.

EDIT: The correct response to my claim was that on page 121 of Mana Warps, second paragraph, third sentence, says, in effect, no. A Mana Warp is not the same as a Domain, and only Domains may be Aspected.

And I was so close, too...

The problem some people reach is that when you think of magic as 'paranormal' or 'supernatural' you're saying it is outside the normal rules of the world. in fact it isn't it is however using rules we are not aware of. For example to look at mass and wingspan with classical aerodynamics, bumble bees can't fly but as you understand how they operate, it becomes clear how they can. Until they were discovered people didn't know about elements.

so magic just operates according to laws we just don't fully understand- yet.

I like that concept! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Someone get Snow_Fox a cookie!

I've always just considered deep space to be anything outside of LEO. Or LP(lanetary)O, whatever.

I'm still interested in hearing the other (domain/warp/count) way, although I think I've puzzled it out. That said, just ask your GM for a quick "mana furnace" metamagic or something and spend the 15 karma to learn it. I don't know, ignore 1 rating of void/ebb per four grades of initiation or something.

You can always use Filtering.

But no, in actuality, deep space is everything outside a given solar system. Inside the asteroid belt is called Inner Space, outside is called Outer Space, and beyond Pluto (IIRC) is Deep Space.

Deep Space
In astronomy:
* Empty regions of the universe in outer space; anywhere beyond Earth orbit; the Deep Sky

Outer space (often simply called space) is the space beyond the Earth's atmosphere.
Deep-sky objects are astronomical objects other than individual stars and solar system objects.

Inner space may mean:
* Underwater environments
* Underground environments
* Microscale environments or smaller
* The "space" contained in the mind or the imagination

Actually, on a quantum level the first law does not fully apply. Or it does. Or both. Standard newtonian equations, even the altered ones to deal with relativity, do not hold up on the quantum level.

My two favorite examples, the oft quoted Schrodinger's cat, and Quantum Tunneling, the method by which our sun utilizes fusion. Although quantum tunneling is the most appropriate. Relying on Heisenburgs uncertainty, a particle can "borrow" energy to pass through a barrier that should completely stop it, so long as it does not borrow it for longer than a time proportional to the amount of energy.

My Warhammer influences always sway me in the direction of life having something to do with the availability of mana, not just it being more radiation from the Sun, since radiation from the sun makes me start thinking more sciencey again and wondering what else could cause mana.

Then again, there is the whole interaction of radiation and magic. . . so fusion mana reactors anyone?

I heard recently that scientists are finding that the laws at the quantum level are more and more like those at the macro level all the time. There are still some Very Weird Shit going on, but its not actually violating the physical laws.

Also, quantum entanglement--they found recently--holds up longer when you continue to make the particles interact with other particles. If kept "in isolation" the entangled relationship quickly degenerates. Which was counter-intuitive.

You assume the universe is a closed system (and/or that our physical laws apply to the 'God universe'). Prove either or both and I'll believe you.

Always reducing things to rules and numbers. Science still hasn't come to grips with the human psyche, or free will. The human spirit exists beyond thermodynamics and quantum theory. Magic is not a series of numbers waiting to be uncovered; that's a self-imposed delusion. Magic is a realm into which science can not step. If you choose to see the world only through the lens of science and math, you are walking through life with only one eye open.

By definition, a universe is a closed system. Any time you find that you're talking about a non-closed system, the stuff affecting it is also inside the universe.

Ah, so it's a human assumption, not something proven. Fair enough. I propose it is wrong. The observable universe is not a closed system. The God Universe that contains our universe does not meet our definition of a closed system (because it does not follow the laws of thermodynamics. Energy may be created or destroyed.)

Prove me wrong.

That's a theory. Nobody knows for a fact how the Sun burns, and all current tests have come back inconclusive. Similarly, we do not know that there are any other "Sun"s out there - we just see bright dots. It could very well be that all those bright spots in the night sky are objects similar to our moon, made of mostly (IIRC) silica, that are closer than we think they are, reflecting Sol's light back at us. Now, this is not to say I believe that, just that it remains a viable theory. We have yet to see the solar landscape (IE: solar flares, sun spots, ect.) of any other star, yet we assume them to be exactly like ours.

On the topic of magic and how it works...

Please tell me you are being facetious...

Keep the Faith

How does the particle give the energy back? Do particles have some wierd form of energy atms at the sub-atomic level or something? That is sillyness.

Show me one conclusive study done on the sun. One.

Show me one photograph, not an artistic render, of another star. One.

You will find none.

This is just sad, and If I did not think that you were just saying it to make a rather obscure point, I would be a little worried...

Keep the Faith

Edit: Check out this siter for pictures of stars produced by the Hubble Telescope... unless of course you think that it is all a conspiracy to expand our perceptions about the universe... http://hubblesite.org/