OK, recently I've found my thoughts drifting to old subjects (since I'm going to have to wait until March of 2010 to pick up any new SR books), and a few old thoughts occured to me;

1) Just what IS the "source" of magical energy? The spirit planes being so closely aligned with the material world after the Awakening? The spirits themselves? That as-yet-defined 'quirk' that all the magically-active possess?

2) Speaking of the 'quirk', has it been identified? I'm sure it was mentioned in one of the old SR1 or SR2 books, but I can't quite recall.....

3) What does it feel like when one casts a spell? Is there a subliminal tingling sensation that cascades over one's nerves? Is there an adrenalin-like surge through one's body?

If anything else occurs to me, I'll post it. Thanks in advance to those who respond (and keep a civil mind).....

I always thought it was life and/or life force of living things. One of the reasons that those who use magic can't go into orbit.

Don't tell anyone this, but the Aztecs had it right with the "Fifth Sun" bit. See, back in the dawn ages the Passions, literal gods that burned with mana created a shield that blocked the natural mana coming from the sun, leading to the downcycle. Eventually the barrier is destroyed, and the 'Awakening' begins again, and new Passions form, and at the height of the mana cycle one of the Passions re-forms the barrier again...


It depends on the soul. Magicians need to have the right soul to use Magic, and nobody accepts that yet.


You literally go temporarily insane; your perspective of the world changes so that the idea of a fireball coming from your fingertips appears to be a rational and logical act, an extension of you existing, no different than breathing.


Znee znee znee!

no no no! you are WRONG sir...
<rocks back and forth in the corner sobbing>
"horrors don't exist! horrors don't exist!"

That implies that all you need to do is simply kill ALL the Horrors and ALL the Passions and everyone will have magic forever and ever and ever.

And why no magic in space then? If it comes from the SUN, wouldn't you be able to use it if you got close enough to the sun without worrying about the warp? Wouldn't that imply you could eventually, with study, create a metamagic that generated a small amount of mana within your own soul that increased with practice until after a few cycles you were utterly immune to the downcycle?

Edit: Scratch that, it makes sense. The mana is pure, rather than filtered into a usable form the way it would be around life. I suppose there might end up being a void tradition that can use magic freely in space or something.

I always liked to think of it in real-world terms: prior to the 20th century, it was assumed that we knew everything about nature and that all new discoveries would simply be refined perspectives on already known concepts; then we discovered microwaves and x-rays, and our entire understanding of how things worked changed. I look at the world of Shadowrun as a world in the wake of a similar event, only with magic being the new area of discovery.

But then again, I'm kind of a science geek, and I've never accepted the idea of things working "just because".

According to The Disc-world books, magic feels like a tingling in your scalp, and the more powerful the magic the higher you get off of it, and the harder the crash.

I like the idea of magic being.. you know, magical, and not a science. Thats why I play a shaman who has NO IDEA how it works, it just does, and he's happy with it. Because he can fry peoples minds.

He's got issues.

Something akin to the above, I like knowing how magic workds--in so far as how characters perceive it--as it allows me a better grip on how I can play with that perception.

My current character--a mystic adept--understands magic as "just another kind of computer code." I even wrote a tidbit of backstory and spent a few BP on it. So in learning how to use this language of reality he altered some things about himself ("tweaked a few constants") and wrote a few scripts (to sling about when needed).

I tried to do this kind of magical understanding once before in a game, and every time I asked the GM how his world worked (as he'd taken a game system and added on to it, adding in magic) I kept getting back the crunch, not the fluff. He, of course, was a terrible GM for doing a game over Yahoo! Voice Chat, as he didn't pay attention to the main window* and had several bad habits (one of which was not officially starting a session until his twin** "I can't believe they're not fuck buddies"*** showed up**** at 10:30pm and everyone having a bedtime of midnight). I finally got pissed off and blocked him after trying to get a simple question answered, which took 6 hours and had the following excuses for not replying (not even a "brb" message):

"I felt sick and went to go puke."
"It's a chronic medical condition."
"My room mate needed to be driven to the hospital."
"I have narcolepsy."

I should point out I've spent 8 hours in the same room with the man and he does not have narcolepsy nor a chronic medical condition which causes him to rush out of the room and puke in the nearest trashcan.

*Which is like running a table game where you're in another room and can't hear what people are saying unless they're passing you notes.

**The two are cast from the same mold, I swear. They look identical.

***"We can't start without Darren, he needs to be here for this session," he whines. (So why is he in the game if he can't show up on time? Ever?) "Or Hex. Gotta wait for Hex. And if Foxie ever comes back from being dead***** we can run that other game again."

****If at all.

*****We don't know what happened to Foxie. One week--right after becoming an integral part of the plot--he never showed up and hasn't even been observed to have signed into YIM since.

A Wizard did it.

With...magic? *head explodes*

All living things create a field of energy, we'll call it mana, just to have a name. And some people have the ability to focus and manipulate this energy so that it affects the material world. This energy, it surounds and fills us. Between you and I, between the tree and the rock. Luminous being are we, not this crude stuff. When you move into space you move away from the great field of life and there is less to manipulase. In vaccuume al you have is your own mana, your own life fore or ,dareI say it, soul and you can't pull on that easily or there will be nothing left of you.

As for what it feels like, well everyone seems to have a different deffinition. Soem say it's like being a hose and feeling the water flow through you.

Magic feels like peeing.

Does this mean if Harlequin has not cast a spell for a long time, he makes funny faces and bellows 'Oh YEAH."?

Metachlorian.

Stupid Lucas. Will we ever live this down?


Anyways,It's all about tapping into the gestalat of energy fields, whilst manipulating that energy for an effect that you'd like to happen.

Magic Functions entirely on belief..

Believe hard enough and your belief causes reality to warp itself to your will. Those that can make magic work are just particularly good at convincing reality to go along with that plan

Pure wild mana in space, and we are a big skimmer ! We skim mana so it's usable !

Of course, you have to believe harder than the other guy's disbelief.

Don't forget to avoid the Nephandi.

"A butterfly flaps its wings..."

2 dimensional beings can't see into 3; 3rd dimensional beings can't interact with 4th. Similarly, some people just have a "knack," which allows them to learn how to influence the world in previously unscientifically provable ways, that "normal" people just can't "get."



True story. Metaphysics is a cool subject.

I think the nature of magic and belief in SR can best be summed up by the following line from "Bull Durham":

I took metaphysics in college and while interesting I found it incredibly difficult to play the devil's advocate.

Especially when we proved the existence of god. Or rather, the author of the text book proved the existence of god, the professor had been teaching the same book for a dozen plus years, so I was pretty much out of luck when it came to supporting a counter argument.

Want to summarize that argument for those of in the audience who have a vague belief in invisible superman of no particular denomination but regularly need to deal with a(n) (ana)baptist and would like to have more ammunition?

Assuming it is secular, of course. Message it to me so we don't get too off track.

Edit. For stupidity

It comes down to showing that an object exists either because it itself exists or because something greater than itself exists (ex. a candle flame exists because it exists (keeps itself alight), but still relies on the existence of the candle). This is true for all objects, eventually dependent on the existence of the universe, which it itself must depend on something for existence (because anything that is self dependent without needing something greater must be permanent forever, and the universe has a beginning and an end) and that "something" has to be god.

Otherwise it's "turtles all the way down."

Note: it does not differentiate God from any one of the numerous other gods, just that such an entity would qualify as being "a god." Also, I use "god" (lowercase) in any context where I am not specifically referring to the Christian God (uppercase).

Magic comes from the rulebooks?

Thanks, folks. This thread is just about what I expected it to be, informative on many levels. Keep it going.

The most simple counterargument would be that it assumes an exact cause and reason for everything, instead of things which just are. Yep, we also did this in school ^^

For example (which brings us right back to the topic ) I see this whole "cycle of magic" thing in SR as simply a given fact of the universe, it exists for the same reason that the Galaxy is spinning.

The big problem with arguments for or against religion/spirituality is that most religious claims cannot be proven or disproven. Yup, I did this in school too.

I actually know how to very easily get a 400 BP character who has right around 30 karma to eminate a R4 Aspected Backround Count that can quite easily shoot up to 12, which means I can cast in space no problem.

EDIT:

Here's the single most effcient counter-argument: First Law of Thermodynimcs. God either IS part of the physical realm (which means he is subject to its laws and can at least potentially bemeasured and detected, or more precisely the change in energy states he causes) or he can not influence the physical realm at all. Problem solved.

Back on topic: Ancient History nailed it. Earthdawn is the semi-official background to Shadowrun. As such, explanations for the cycle of magic from Earthdawn are fully applicable to the cycle of magic in SR.

Space is a void/ebb, not a count/domain/warp. -12 rather than +12. If it still works, spill.


Step 1: Start playing a Nethermancer or Wizard or Elementalist.
Step 2: ????
Step 3: PROFIT!! (For the corps who abducted you.)

No sir. Deep space is a -12: this is beyond Pluto. Inside that is a lower BC. If you look at the examples, the moon has a BC of either 7 or 8 (I forget which one), and as long as the BC stays at 11 or lower, your BC of 12 superceeds it fully.

Also, don't forget that you use the absolute value of Backround Count: you ignore the +/-. Just look at the number itself. If you have a BC of -6, and bring in a BC of 7, you're in BC 7, not BC 1.

I'm not sure what exactly would happen if you get two R12 BC's overlapping, particularly if one is Aspected to yourself. The rules say you take the highest BC, which is 12, and you're in an Aspected Domain, but I'm not sure if you retain your Aspected Domain or if the other BC interferes...

Page 118, Street Magic, in the first sentence of Backround Count and Magic. Read it.

EDIT: The correct response to my claim was that on page 121 of Mana Warps, second paragraph, third sentence, says, in effect, no. A Mana Warp is not the same as a Domain, and only Domains may be Aspected.

And I was so close, too...

The problem some people reach is that when you think of magic as 'paranormal' or 'supernatural' you're saying it is outside the normal rules of the world. in fact it isn't it is however using rules we are not aware of. For example to look at mass and wingspan with classical aerodynamics, bumble bees can't fly but as you understand how they operate, it becomes clear how they can. Until they were discovered people didn't know about elements.

so magic just operates according to laws we just don't fully understand- yet.

I like that concept! Someone get Snow_Fox a cookie!

I've always just considered deep space to be anything outside of LEO. Or LP(lanetary)O, whatever.

I'm still interested in hearing the other (domain/warp/count) way, although I think I've puzzled it out. That said, just ask your GM for a quick "mana furnace" metamagic or something and spend the 15 karma to learn it. I don't know, ignore 1 rating of void/ebb per four grades of initiation or something.

You can always use Filtering.

But no, in actuality, deep space is everything outside a given solar system. Inside the asteroid belt is called Inner Space, outside is called Outer Space, and beyond Pluto (IIRC) is Deep Space.

Deep Space
In astronomy:
* Empty regions of the universe in outer space; anywhere beyond Earth orbit; the Deep Sky

Outer space (often simply called space) is the space beyond the Earth's atmosphere.
Deep-sky objects are astronomical objects other than individual stars and solar system objects.

Inner space may mean:
* Underwater environments
* Underground environments
* Microscale environments or smaller
* The "space" contained in the mind or the imagination

Actually, on a quantum level the first law does not fully apply. Or it does. Or both. Standard newtonian equations, even the altered ones to deal with relativity, do not hold up on the quantum level.

My two favorite examples, the oft quoted Schrodinger's cat, and Quantum Tunneling, the method by which our sun utilizes fusion. Although quantum tunneling is the most appropriate. Relying on Heisenburgs uncertainty, a particle can "borrow" energy to pass through a barrier that should completely stop it, so long as it does not borrow it for longer than a time proportional to the amount of energy.

My Warhammer influences always sway me in the direction of life having something to do with the availability of mana, not just it being more radiation from the Sun, since radiation from the sun makes me start thinking more sciencey again and wondering what else could cause mana.

Then again, there is the whole interaction of radiation and magic. . . so fusion mana reactors anyone?

I heard recently that scientists are finding that the laws at the quantum level are more and more like those at the macro level all the time. There are still some Very Weird Shit going on, but its not actually violating the physical laws.

Also, quantum entanglement--they found recently--holds up longer when you continue to make the particles interact with other particles. If kept "in isolation" the entangled relationship quickly degenerates. Which was counter-intuitive.

You assume the universe is a closed system (and/or that our physical laws apply to the 'God universe'). Prove either or both and I'll believe you.

Always reducing things to rules and numbers. Science still hasn't come to grips with the human psyche, or free will. The human spirit exists beyond thermodynamics and quantum theory. Magic is not a series of numbers waiting to be uncovered; that's a self-imposed delusion. Magic is a realm into which science can not step. If you choose to see the world only through the lens of science and math, you are walking through life with only one eye open.

By definition, a universe is a closed system. Any time you find that you're talking about a non-closed system, the stuff affecting it is also inside the universe.

Ah, so it's a human assumption, not something proven. Fair enough. I propose it is wrong. The observable universe is not a closed system. The God Universe that contains our universe does not meet our definition of a closed system (because it does not follow the laws of thermodynamics. Energy may be created or destroyed.)

Prove me wrong.

That's a theory. Nobody knows for a fact how the Sun burns, and all current tests have come back inconclusive. Similarly, we do not know that there are any other "Sun"s out there - we just see bright dots. It could very well be that all those bright spots in the night sky are objects similar to our moon, made of mostly (IIRC) silica, that are closer than we think they are, reflecting Sol's light back at us. Now, this is not to say I believe that, just that it remains a viable theory. We have yet to see the solar landscape (IE: solar flares, sun spots, ect.) of any other star, yet we assume them to be exactly like ours.

On the topic of magic and how it works...

Please tell me you are being facetious...

Keep the Faith

How does the particle give the energy back? Do particles have some wierd form of energy atms at the sub-atomic level or something? That is sillyness.

Show me one conclusive study done on the sun. One.

Show me one photograph, not an artistic render, of another star. One.

You will find none.

This is just sad, and If I did not think that you were just saying it to make a rather obscure point, I would be a little worried...

Keep the Faith

Edit: Check out this siter for pictures of stars produced by the Hubble Telescope... unless of course you think that it is all a conspiracy to expand our perceptions about the universe... http://hubblesite.org/