So, an argument has brought up a question I hadn't even really thought was something at issue before:
Can a mage use ultrasound to target a spell?

Now, obviously I'm talking about the implanted headware version, as the contact lens version obviously doesn't work.

Here is the relevant quote for those who don't feel like trawling through their book:
QUOTE (SR4A p.183)
A metahuman spellcaster can target anyone or anything
she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or bio-
enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but any
technological visual aids that substitude themselves for the charac-
ter's own visual senses - cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds,
etc. - cannot be used.

Now, this seems fairly clear to me. If it is an enhancement and it has been paid for with essence, then you can target someone with that enhancement. This line seems very purposefully included to allow the use of cybereyes by mages.

Apparently though, the problem for some people comes from the second half of the sentence that says ", but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character's own [vision]....". Some people seem to think that specifically excludes ultrasound from being included in the 'enhancements paid for with essence' part that can be used to target for spells. I figure however, that if anything that is a 'technological visual aid that substitutes itself for the characters vision' can't be used to target spells (Despite paying for it with essence) then a cybereye would fall very directly into this category. It is quite obviously a piece of technology that aids in your vision. A camera is even specifically pointed out as being one of those technological visual aid things, and a cybereye isn't much more than a fancy camera that goes in your eye socket.

Edit: (stupid enter button)
So, if you're one of those people who answers no to the poll above, can you please explain to me in what way a cybereye would qualify to allow someone to target spells and ultrasound would not, given that they are both vision enhancing technological devices paid for with essence and the only real difference between the two is that one uses light to function and the other uses sound.

You forgot to mention the ultrasound headware (not eyeware or visionware) quote (SR4A p339):
"Ultrasound Sensor: This is an implanted version of the ultrasound sensor (p.333). "

Hrm. That doesn't say much. Let's see what p 333 says (SR4A p 333):
Ultrasound: "The ultrasound accessory consists of an emitter that sends out continuous ultrasonic pulses and a receiver that picks up the echoes of these pulses to create a topographic ultrasound “map” that is laid over (or replaces) the user’s normal visual sensory input. While ultrasound vision is perfect to “see” textures, calculate exact distances, and pick up things otherwise invisible to the naked eye (like people cloaked by an Invisibility spell), it is less adept at other tasks like perceiving colors and brightness. It cannot penetrate materials like glass that would be transparent to optical sensors.
The ultrasound sensor can be set to a passive mode, in which it does not emit ultrasonic pulses but still picks up ultrasound from outside sources (such as motion sensors or someone else’s ultrasound sensors on active mode)."

At issue is whether or not it constitutes a brand new sense that counts as a visual sense for the purposes of spell targeting (in other words, natural vision). The wording is a bit vague and doesn't clarify whether they mean:
1) You can use natural vision OR you can use Essence enhancements.
2) You can use natural vision AND this natural vision can be modified by Essence enhancements.

The fluff reason behind all of this brou-ha-ha is that you cannot cast a spell if you can't connect with its aura, and electronic images do not convey an aura (technically, by astral perception, you don't see anything but a greyish mush on the screen/visual field/etc.). The fluff says that you cannot use an electronic image just like you can't use a picture or photo to cast a spell (sympathetic magic aside, which works on a different principle for targeting).

The only way you can perceive the new information given to you by ultrasound is not a vision enhancement, it's an electronic overlay. If the gear itself says "This headware allows you to use Ultrasound just like natural vision in every way." then I'd probably have less problems with it. Instead, there's a poor one-sentence reference to a description clearly intended for a device that isn't cybernetic in any way at all.

EDIT: By the way, I commend Karoline for moving this to a brand new thread. *applause*

EDIT 2: Also, I'm not sure if the scope of this argument is 4th edition only, but from 3rd edition Shadowrun (Man and Machine, p 18):
"ULTRASOUND VISION
Ultrasound vision systems have three components: an emitter, a receiver, and a processor. The emitter device installed in one eye sends out continuous ultrasonic pulses, sweeping forward from side to side. The receiver installed in the other eye (creating a necessary angle of deflection) receives the echoes of these pulses and converts them to electrical signals, which are fed to the processor. The processor (also built into the eyes) builds a topographic image from these signals, showing depth, forms, and texture as depicted by the echoes.

When activated, the ultrasound "map" overlays the user's vision (in much the same way that thermographic vision overlays natural sight; see p. 49). Shapes and forms are outlined and textured, allowing the user to distinguish objects that other vision systems can't detect.

GAME EFFECTS
Ultrasound vision reduces visibility modifiers (p 232, SR3) by half (round up). If installed with high-frequency hearing modification, reduce the ultrasound vision cost and Essence Cost by 20 percent.

Because this system builds images from sound and transforms them into visual input, indirect illusion spells that affect sight do not affect this system. For example, a character cloaked by an invisibility spell would be visible to a character with ultrasound vision as an outline and faintly textured image. However, because the character is not being viewed directly, they cannot by targeted with magic. Modify by +4 the target numbers for any other actions directed at the characters "visible" only through ultrasound.

Indirect illusion spells that affect sound will affect ultrasound vision, however. The silence spell affect ultrasound sight in the same way that invisibility affects normal vision. Characters cloaked using a silence spell do not show up as ultrasound images, and may not be located by an empty space in the ultrasound map image.

White noise also affects ultrasound vision. Add a number equal to the rating of the white noise generator to the target numbers of any actions performed using ultrasound vision.

Cybernetic ultrasound sight is affected by mana-based indirect illusion spells (in addition to physical spells), because it has been purchased with Essence."

Wow, it's more detailed and confusing! *grin*

A cyber-eye replaces your eye and as it is paid for with essence acts physically and spiritually like your eye.
Ultrasound overlays (or replaces) "natural vision".
It acts like a feed augmenting what you see. It is not your "natural vision".

Unfortunately, this will still boil down to semantics and opinion.

I voted "no".

This could be justified by the fact that the ultrasound, like the radar, is not in the eye itself, but is a technological sensor implanted someplace else in your body feeding it's information through an image link where a cybereye or eye mod, while similar, replace/improve an already existing sense and is more directly connected to the optical nerves of the user.

But honestly I feel this is more a game balance perspective (same as radar) than from a logical analysis.

That seems to indicate that ultrasound can be used as 'normal vision' and not exclusively as an electronic overly. It can in other words be taken to your brain in the exact same manor as cybereyes take the vision they provide to your name.



That's a good way of putting it. If 1. is correct (Which I think is the way to read it) then ultrasound seems to be on the menu for targeting spells. However if 2. is correct, then I don't know that cybereyes would qualify as natural vision. Cybereyes are after all cameras and thus hardly natrual.

Agreed. The fluff is entirely a connection to the aura. The reason that the electronic images provided by a cybereye work (I don't think anyone can really argue that cybereyes use electronics to create their images) is because it is paid for with essence and thus connected to your aura. An ultrasound implant would very similarly use electronics to create an image (The only difference being that it uses information based on sound, not light to create this image) and pass it directly to the brain (as vision that replaces your natural vision, exactly like cybereyes do, as you're natural vision is gone when you have cybereyes because your natural eyes are gone). And since it is also paid for with essence, it should, in all theory, provide the exact same link that the cybereyes provide.

Or it can indicate that you can ONLY see the overlay and not your natural vision, if you choose. There's no way of knowing from that sentence.

Actually, we have no idea of knowing this. They could be an artificial retina, which connects to the natural optic nerve in the same way a normal retina does. They include an image link and eye-recording unit for free, but I don't think that the rules specifically state that "Cybereyes are cameras and nothing else."

This is your extrapolation on my statement, but I would like to state that I don't support this explanation, and in no way does my statement explore this possibility. Cybereyes can also work (note: I'm not saying this is the way cybereyes work) because they are a direct neural feed to the brain that works the same way as a retina, without replacing the optic nerve. It would work the same way that replacing your eyes with a bioware enhancement, only with an electronic interface instead of a biological one. Perhaps a mage can see an aura reflected on a target at the moment of spellcasting specifically through vision because they have mentally trained to do so. *shrugs*

There's no "inner eye" in cybereyes to look at the electronic image and deduce an aura from that information. There's also no indication that what a person sees as a mage is an electronic image, in the same manner as looking at a computer screen and seeing nothing on the astral plane. Maybe they have "special" cybereyes for Awakened that still allow them to spellcast, and we aren't given that fluff because it's totally assumed.

An implanted ultrasound wouldn't use an image link (or at least wouldn't have to) as it would have direct access to your brain just like cybereyes do. If you wanted to, you could even have the image the ultrasound provides passed directly through the optic nerves if that would make any kind of difference.

I don't see ultrasound being much of a balance issue. It has basically the same range as normal vision, and basically always provides a vision penalty (Which translates directly into a penalty to your spellcasting test) and can't generally see any more than cybereyes can. The biggest advantage it would provide would be the same as mundanes get from it in that invisibility doesn't work on it.

Now radar I can agree as being a balance issue due to the massive ranges at which it could operate, but I'm more focused purely on ultrasound here.

Hmm, that is something to think about. If a cybereye is basically just a new lens and not a replacement of the actual eye then it would make somewhat more sense in allowing it and not ultrasound, though the essence cost seems oddly high if you are only replacing a small fraction of the eye. Also, though hardly RAW of any kind, the picture on p332 (SR4, not sure where/if it is in SR4A) showing a cybereye seems to indicate that the entire eye is replaced, or at the very least the inside of the eyeball.

Also I seem to recall descriptions of how cybereyes can look basically however you want, including having the 'whites' of the eye be metalic and such, which once again suggests a replacement of the entire eye.

Edit: Oh, and lets not forget the eye drone mod you can get. That definitely seems to indicate that the entire eye is artificial.

Edit2: With all the specific mention of the optic nerves, that brings up the question then: If using that 'weird eye location' cybereye or whatever it is called, would a mage be able to target with that as well? If not, what exactly makes the cybereyes put in the eye sockets special, and if so, why can't ultrasound communicate with the brain in the exact same manner?

Note, we aren't told this at all, in RAW. All we are told in RAW is that it's an implanted version of the ultrasound sensor. All that could mean is a pouch in a convenient location in the brain with wires stuck into it. The essence cost could simply be an image overlay interface for the eye. We don't know. Nothing in RAW indicates that you have a direct neural interface to your implanted ultrasound system.

"Then why would you ever get it?" Because you are (read: I am) a lazy mundane who wants to hide it in his/her body? *shrugs*

EDIT: Changed "enhancement" to "sensor" to be more accurate to the RAW writing. Whatever that means.

Also, you can have a full orbital replacement of the eye and spare the optic nerve. It doesn't JUST have to be an artificial retina. It can be a full structural replacement of the eye, but it leaves the optic nerve and retinal interface intact, albeit with an artificial retina. From a cost perspective, this makes sense (why destroy a connection that's already there?), and you'd be able to use similar artificial retinal mods for cybereyes as well.

We also know nothing about whether the SR world has special "mage eyes" for just this purpose. I'd assume that it doesn't, since there's no mention of it, but it's something to think about.

1) Yes. I think that's been addressed.

2) Because of the SPU doing calculations to figure out what the data looks like, effectively rendering the signal--however it gets to the brain--as an electronic one, and unusable for spellcasting. Now, an awakened bat: sure. They could use a cyber version of ultrasound for spellcasting as it'd be skipping the SPU and they'd be using their own gray matter. They'd likely also be able to use radar and UWBR wired in in the same way.*

*I would however question the ability to cast through walls even so, due to the fact that the wall is still perceived and Magic doesn't pass through walls** in any other form of casting.

**Opaque to the visible light spectrum objects.

No, we aren't told in RAW that there is a DNI of any kind with the ultrasound implant, but at the same time it isn't indicated that you require an image link to make it work. This would make the implanted version rather pointless if you didn't also have cybereyes, as if you lose your glasses/goggles/whatever that provide the image link you lose the ultrasound, regardless of if it is implanted or in the glasses/whatever.

I suppose I'm a bit confused as to your interpretation of how a cybereye works. If the retina is artificial and thus the low-light vision or thermographic vision is being provided by some sort of technology, how does that differ from a contact lens?

So, if the cybereye doesn't process what it sees at all, how can it provide low light or thermographic vision? I figure some kind of processing must be done for thermographic as our eyes can't normally detect IR light, and if the modification was purely so our eyes could do so, I don't know that our brains would be able to turn that into an image of any kind.

Oh, and ritual spell casting passes through walls, so there is some president for casting through a wall, though of course ritual spellcasting breaks basically all the normal rules of spells. An awakened bat sounds awesome, even if it can't get an UWBR implant to cast spells through walls.

Edit: Much as I hate to drop out of the discussion (As it is going well and I seem to be the only one who thinks ultrasound should work) it is super late, so night all. Happy debating. I'll see if I can catch up in the morning.

I voted no. The Ultrasound sensor states that it overlays or replaces normal vision, which means that it is excluded as per the second half of the sentence. Cybereyes do not overlay or replace natural vision - they are natural vision. Cloned eyes are, after all, just a form of sensor wrought from cells instead of inorganic materials, and they're made with technology, and artificially. You could make an argument that cloned eyes are technological.

Low Light amplifies the amount of light your retina (natural or artificial) receives.
Thermographic broadens the frequency of light your retina (natural or artificial) receives.

Neither requires processing in any form.
Neither requires an image link or alternate display method.




You can target with line of sight, not with digital images. Both radar & ultrasound are clear in that they use non-visual methods of gathering information, which they then use to create a digital image, which overlays or replaces your natural vision.

Until you can provide a rules quote stating that Ultrasound (not the overlay it generates, but the emitter/receiver itself) is visual, your stance cannot be supported as anything other than a House Rule (& a rather stupid one, at that). The same applies for Radar (Ultra-Wideband or otherwise).

The fact that mages can cast through fiber optics(mage sight) is a pretty good argument for saying that spell targeting requires you to see through reflected light(which also explains why casting through a window works). As mentioned above, low-light and thermo vision both still use light, just light amplification and light outside the normal visible spectrum respectively.

Even as a cyber eye mod, ultrasound does not use light, it uses sound. It it gathers sonic data, and then a computer compiles that data and presents a computer approximation of the surroundings. It shouldn't allow for spell targeting any more that your image link drawing a picture of a person where it detected a commlink with the scan program would.

That's the key, to me. It's not a new sense - it's a computerized representation of the data from the sensor, rather than the raw feed itself.

Has it been paid for with essence -> yes

Not? -> no

So you are saying that an ultrasonic (sound-based) system without the digital overlay is a visual sense? Because the rules specifically forbid digital feeds (which includes image-link overlays such as Ultrasound & Radar) effects from being used as spell targeting, regardless of if they have been paid for with Essence or not.

I'm an sr3 players, so yeah, perhaps you have a good point/are right or my memory is letting me down...

I voted no. Lemme try a confusing and roundabout way of explaining my opinion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

The spell (Improved) Invisibility "makes the subject more difficult to detect by normal visual
senses". It has no effect on Ultrasound, so ultrasound is not a visual sense when it comes to magic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

--

Then for a less tongue-in-cheek explanation:

I tend to lean towards intuitive/emotional explanations, when trying to explain magical effects. For me, it doesn't matter where the wires go in the brain. Sound is sound, and sensing by sound is hearing, not seeing, even if you plug a computer in between and reroute the information to your visual cortex.

Ah well, it appears I spoke up to soon, even for sr3 it's there on m&m p 18...

1) It CAN be used for targeting elemental manipulations, since they do not require LOS.

However, it CANNOT be solely used for targeting direct spells like manabolt.

This is all a moot point however since the ultrasound vision only reduces vision modifiers - it augments your normal vision. Mechanically, you cannot see someone ONLY with ultrasound vision (unless you're using the scope). I would argue that the modifiers of UV do count for targetting spells.

Ritual Spellcasting isn't casting spells through walls. It's a spell effect that you spend 12 hours establishing a magical link through Hammerspace with the target, then using "like is like" fireball something in front of you and the effect is passed onto the target.

But you're right, an awakened bat sounds awesome. I could see GM Fiat making one that does cast spells through walls just to fuck with players. Because that would be an awesome fight.

Biosonar metagenic quality should work fine for targeting, though, no?




-karma

By RAW, yes. It is a natural sense the character has.