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Should hardened armor give auto-hits?
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Muspellsheimr
post Jan 11 2010, 11:02 PM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 11 2010, 03:36 PM) *
(yes, I know the critter and adept Mystic Armors are different, but they still stack to block bullets)

Fail.

Read the rules. The Mystic Armor critter power provides ASTRAL Armor. It does not stack whatsoever with a Drake's Hardened Armor.


Drakes fucking suck for their cost Rules as Written, & Hardened Armor as written does not make sense in the system, & creates various levels of bullshit, most described in this thread.
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Jaid
post Jan 12 2010, 12:12 AM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 11 2010, 05:36 PM) *
One thing that confuses me is the Magic Attribute of 1 that comes from being a drake, and how that relates to the Magic Attribute of 1 that comes from the Adept Quality. Do they combine to a 2, before more BP are spent on the Attribute?


no.
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Draco18s
post Jan 12 2010, 12:55 AM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 11 2010, 05:36 PM) *
OK, so standing naked, the drake in drake form has Mystic armor 4/4 plus HA 4/4 for a total of 8/8.


Not sure if this is what Muspellsheimr was referring to, but the Mystic Armor that a drake has racially is the poorly named critter power not the Adept Power.

Mystic Armor
Type: M • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always
Critters with Mystic Armor have natural protection
from astral attacks. Apply the critter’s Mystic Armor rating
against any astral attacks that strike it. Some critters may also
have hardened Mystic Armor (if they also have the Hardened
Armor power).
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Omenowl
post Jan 12 2010, 01:56 AM
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I would make 1 minor modification for the Spirits using force hardened armor. I would not allow armor piercing. The point of armor is to bypass the hard part to hurt the squishy parts inside. With the exception of some insect spirits there is not squishy inside so the armor represents the ability to ignore damage.

So our F4 spirit does not feel naked against APDS light pistol rounds.
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Tyro
post Jan 12 2010, 02:20 AM
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QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jan 11 2010, 05:56 PM) *
I would make 1 minor modification for the Spirits using force hardened armor. I would not allow armor piercing. The point of armor is to bypass the hard part to hurt the squishy parts inside. With the exception of some insect spirits there is not squishy inside so the armor represents the ability to ignore damage.

So our F4 spirit does not feel naked against APDS light pistol rounds.

Sounds reasonable to me - assuming you mean armor PIERCING AMMO. "I throw my armor at you, bypassing your armor and burying it in your squishy bits!"
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toturi
post Jan 12 2010, 02:21 AM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 12 2010, 05:18 AM) *
Hardened Armor precludes that possibility, and 4/4 is sufficient to do so in many cases. One may argue that armor can be circumvented by called shots, but critter HA probably, and certainly that provided by ItNW cannot be circumvented in this fashion.

That is up to individual GMs to decide. The rules do not explicitly state that Critter HA or ItNW cannot be circumvented in this fashion.
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Draco18s
post Jan 12 2010, 02:23 AM
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QUOTE (Tyro @ Jan 11 2010, 09:20 PM) *
Sounds reasonable to me - assuming you mean armor PIERCING AMMO. "I throw my armor at you, bypassing your armor and burying it in your squishy bits!"


Must...resist....sig'ing....this!
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pbangarth
post Jan 12 2010, 02:30 AM
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Alright! Two goofs in one day. In the same thread, even. I'm going for a record. If the two types of Mystic Armor can combine, then it's against astral attacks, not bullets. My bad. Thank you, Muspellheimr for so tactfully pointing out my error.

So, Draco18s, your issue with drake armor is a sticky one. It's also unfortunate the Magic Attribute isn't doubled up for a magician or adept drake. One pays twice for the first point.
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pbangarth
post Jan 12 2010, 02:35 AM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Jan 11 2010, 07:21 PM) *
That is up to individual GMs to decide. The rules do not explicitly state that Critter HA or ItNW cannot be circumvented in this fashion.
Today is not a good day for me to be discussing the niceties of the rules. So, let me just ask, how would you approach a definition of Immunity such that it could be circumvented by a called shot?
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Draco18s
post Jan 12 2010, 02:42 AM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 11 2010, 09:35 PM) *
Today is not a good day for me to be discussing the niceties of the rules. So, let me just ask, how would you approach a definition of Immunity such that it could be circumvented by a called shot?


Just to point out the silliness here.

Take...a bon fire. It is immune to fire (has 2xSize in "hardened armor" versus "fire attacks") you have a water pistol and a flame thrower.

Which do you use to put out the fire?

A) The weak water pistol

B) The flame thrower, but take a called shot.
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Falar
post Jan 12 2010, 02:49 AM
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Flamethrower - called shot to BURN UP ALL THE AVAILABLE OXYGEN.

It would totally work.
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Draco18s
post Jan 12 2010, 02:51 AM
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Maybe in a confined room with little ventilation.

But not out where one normally finds bonfires.
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toturi
post Jan 12 2010, 04:12 AM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 12 2010, 10:35 AM) *
Today is not a good day for me to be discussing the niceties of the rules. So, let me just ask, how would you approach a definition of Immunity such that it could be circumvented by a called shot?

I am not sure what definition you want, there is already a definition for Immunity in the rules.

One in-game explanation I had come up with: There are flaws within the physical manifestion of the entity's ectoplasm that allows the called shot to bypass Immunity. The stronger the spirit, the less flaws there are.
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Tyro
post Jan 12 2010, 04:21 AM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 11 2010, 06:23 PM) *
Must...resist....sig'ing....this!

You honor me.
bows
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Da9iel
post Jan 12 2010, 11:06 AM
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I've looked at the math, and against a force 9 spirit with no AP the damage abruptly goes from zero to 10 (give or take depending on the resistance roll). The jump is less severe and sooner with more armor penetration. Given that those suckers have 13 boxes and you'd need to be doing a zero AP hit worth 19 DV to get to that jump, I have no problem with the rules as written for hardened armor. I imagine that once that bullet manages to get past all that armor it just pings around inside doing all sorts of damage. It makes even more sense against vehicles.

I voted no.

I have other issues with high force spirits, but this is not one of them. They should be scary but rare.
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Draco18s
post Jan 12 2010, 03:03 PM
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QUOTE (Tyro @ Jan 11 2010, 11:21 PM) *
You honor me.
bows


I gave in. My old sig was getting old.
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Tyro
post Jan 12 2010, 08:54 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 12 2010, 07:03 AM) *
I gave in. My old sig was getting old.

Yay! I do believe that's the first time I've ever been sigged dance
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