This issue has been discussed enough recently that I think a poll is in order. What do you think? I'm not a number cruncher, so I don't know how balanced it is, but assuming it is balanced (and other people's comments lead me to believe so), I like auto-hits better than all or nothing from a thematic standpoint. Also, in my opinion low levels (such as drakes and low-to-medium-Force spirits get - I don't count 7+ as medium force) should really be more useful than they are. All IMO - let's see what you think!

I've given my thoughts in various threads. HA by RAW is not useful unless you have a minimum of 8 points of it.

I voted for No, because if you play by this rules Spirits get nearly impossible to kill without magic.

Even with the normal rules any Spirits with force 5+ are difficult to kill. Imagine if a force 6 Spirit will get 12 auto success...

cya
Tycho

Actually, the rule proposal includes giving spirits HA equal to their magic.

So a Force 6 spirit has 6 successes.

I really should have mentioned that. Edited.

[Edit:] You could really mess with people's perceptions by creating a poll, letting people vote, then changing the question O.o

Try being mod. You can just change the votes as you like

If Immunity gives only half the Armor it should be worth a try.

cya
Tycho

I voted yes, because I think the principle of automatic hits is better than the miss-or-kill effect of RAW.

Whether Immunity to Normal Weapons is balanced or not with the proposed rules depends on the amount of automatic hits given by Immunity to Normal Weapons.

2 x Magic autohits leave the immunity (0 damage) as it is, and make for minimal damage after that. Spirits would be very (very) hard to kill.

1 x Magic allows you to damage the immune target with a very low DV compared to RAW, while not changing things much in the upper end of the damage scale. This makes spirits (a lot?) easier to kill.

1.5 x Magic lies somewhere in between. Making it easier to damage spirits little by little, but not making it easy to dish out a lot of damage with any one attack. This makes spirits harder to kill with one or two good shots, but easier to take down with numbers.

spreadsheet calculations from the other thread

It sounds like 1.5 would be best, then. What about for other (non-Spirit) applications? What's the consensus there?

You start doing damage at a lower threshold, yes, but overall (cross spectrum) you're doing less damage. 12 damage against 10 armor is doing 2 boxes, rather than 7.

I was comparing Damage to Spirit Force/Magic (Immunity to Normal Weapons).

DV12 against 1 x Magic automatic hits with a Force 10 Spirit does 2 boxes damage, yes.
Against RAW it would do 0 damage, as would DV19.

So overall you're doing more damage. Once you go over the DV for RAW immunity, you do about one box less damage on average.

Unless I missed something.

EDIT: By RAW you get 2 x Magic Hardened Armor. I'm sure you knew that, but I wanted to mention it to be thorough.

You're right, my mistake, I was trying to keep too much in my head at once.

Been there, done that. No problem

I voted "no" because I believe the case for the "miss-or-kill" argument and it's resolution through automatic hits is overstated. I believe so for four reasons.

1) Immunity to Normal Weapons is scariest with high Force spirits. By RAW, high Force spirits are terrifying. They should be. The arguments that this is a bad thing boil down to fears that magicians who can summon huge spirits are overpowered. I see this as a problem of GMs underutilizing the drawbacks and counterbalances of summoning high Force spirits, rather than an inherent weakness in the rules. If such monsters are prevalent in a game, either on the PC or the NPC side, it is because the GM is not applying these drawbacks and counterbalances effectively.

2) The argument that there exists a problem because the presence of high ItNW requires the opposition to use huge firepower in order to penetrate the Hardened Armor, or else do no damage at all, is a spurious one. Characters will use honking, big weapons because they like to use honking, big weapons, whether they are shooting at spirits or juggernauts or Stuffer Shack employees. As an example, a sniper rifle with special ammunition shows up in most PC teams I've encountered here on Dumpshock. That thing kills anything it hits. It will be carried and used whether the team ever meets something with ItNW or not.

3) The argument that low levels of ItNW are meaningless highlights the focus that players and GMs have on only one or a few forms of damage dealing. There are many things in the Shadowrun universe that are deadly even though they don't "punch" very hard. The paper-scissors-rock principle is fundamental in the Shadowrun universe. I commend the authors for incorporating it into the game. All characters get a chance to shine because of it. A drake's HA of 4 can be the saving factor in the right circumstances. Conversely, a high ItNW requires the opposition to find another way to deal with the creature, rather than shooting it. This is a good thing.

4) The use of automatic hits dramatically overpowers creatures with Hardened Armor, as it's use increases the effect of that armor in reducing damage that does get through. In RAW, if a shot gets through HA, the reduction in damage is approximately 1/3 the value of the HA, not 1X, or 1.5X or 2X the value. With these suggestions for automatic hits, many more creatures become indestructible than with the RAW system, especially if the rule limiting dice pools to 20 is used.

I laugh good sir. Name a circumstance that has a good possibility of occurring where this would be the case and that 4/4 normal armor would not have been enough.

I'm in favor, especially with the 1x Magic variant. It means that you'll always notice HA, instead of only on critters with a HA of 10+

Suppose that drake with HA 4; what kind of credible attack does less than 5 damage? A knife, a sword in the hands of an amateur. You're never going to notice that.

Now, if HA is automatic hits, you're always going to have some difficulty getting through it. You'll be sure to notice it on weak enemies too.


If you use the 1x Magic variant, an F9 spirit is actually more doable; your chances of doing 10 damage and passsing on 1, are better than those of doing 19, and passing on a lot. On the other hand, an F4 spirit is going to be a little bit tougher.

F4 and lower are notably a slight bit tougher, yes. But that's because at-current, HA <8 is useless, despite supposedly providing some protection, which is where the not-even power curve on spirits comes from.*

*F1-4 spirit being a cake-walk and a F5 spirit being trouble, and a F6 spirit being unstoppable.

...and competent mages can easily summon spirits with force 8, without Drain worth noticing.

cya
Tycho

...and competent mages can easily summon spirits with force 8, without Drain worth noticing.

cya
Tycho

IMO that actually takes a fair bit of twinking. I've never seen that in my group's games. We'll get the occasional "summon Force > Magic" but it typically leaves the mage doing it in a bit of pain (read: borderline unconscious from physical damage).
HOWEVER, even if that's true, that's all the more reason to make those kinds of spirits a bit less over the top.

"Good possibility of occurring" depends on the game and the GM. I am starting up a campaign which will be wilderness oriented in which injection-vector toxins will be a distinct possibility. Without letting the cat out of the bag for many others, there is at least one published SR4 campaign in which such vectors are a possibility. Whether injected by insect, tooth, spikey plant, blowgun, shuriken or other weapon, a successful hit is required. Many of those vectors are of very low DV but still apply the venom on a successful hit, even if no damage is inflicted.... in other words even if the weapon damage is resisted. Hardened Armor precludes that possibility, and 4/4 is sufficient to do so in many cases. One may argue that armor can be circumvented by called shots, but critter HA probably, and certainly that provided by ItNW cannot be circumvented in this fashion. In a similar vein, try injecting a drake with sodium pentathol to make him talk or heroine to make him owned. How about the ghoul that gets a basic 4DV claw on the drake?

[soapbox - marginally related]It's been 20 years. Shadowrun should grow up and realize urban life is not the only life on Earth, and there are more runs than urban ones.[/soapbox]

Drakes are immune to HMHVV. Also, 1 net hit (making the attack connect) bumps the damage up to 5DV, doesn't it?

And being effectively immune to insects and injection vector toxins is a rather niche "immunity" for 60 BP.

Ah, missed the HMHVV immunity, so that example is not so good. Yes, one net hit does raise the damage. That's why I limited my point. Weak point. Forget this one.

60BP buys a lot more than 4/4 HA. For example, your point about immunity to HMHVV. And physical Attribute improvements, a Magic Attribute, Mystic Armor, enhanced senses, flying, elemental attack, natural weapon.... and HA of 4/4. Remove the various equivalents for these characteristics from the total of 60 BP and the portion providing an HA of 4/4 is surely small.

True, the 60 BP is far more than the 4/4 HA, but its the only armor they have in drakeform (without taking Adept/Magician/Mystic Adept) towards material realm attacks, which severely limits the usefulness of that form.

I'm currently playing a character who has no other armor whatsoever, in an attempt to find some benefit for all of a drake's stats (that is, turning into a drake actually gains me armor, rather than loses it, so its considered an asset this time around) to get a better feel for the cost of being one.

Maybe you could use some sort of super-kevlar-spandex suit that can stretch to accomodate shapechanging?

OK, so standing naked, the drake in drake form has Mystic armor 4/4 plus HA 4/4 for a total of 8/8. This is equivalent to what many characters can wear normally. With the enhanced BOD attribute of many of the drake forms, your character is similar to a lightly-to-medium armored troll. A troll costs 40 BP, so your drake is definitely not a ripoff.

Given that a drake is an Awakened character, it seems sensible to build on the Awakened characteristics he has. Buying the Adept Quality seems a good path, as you already have one Power Point worth of Mystic Armor (yes, I know the critter and adept Mystic Armors are different, but they still stack to block bullets), which can be built upon (giving you more of the armor you want). You already have dual nature, so you don't have to buy Astral Perception with Power Points. And Elemental Attack to go along with other combat skills. You have to acquire the Skill to go along with it, but this is an attack form of unlimited range that works like a spell, but has no Drain.

One thing that confuses me is the Magic Attribute of 1 that comes from being a drake, and how that relates to the Magic Attribute of 1 that comes from the Adept Quality. Do they combine to a 2, before more BP are spent on the Attribute?

Fail.

Read the rules. The Mystic Armor critter power provides ASTRAL Armor. It does not stack whatsoever with a Drake's Hardened Armor.


Drakes fucking suck for their cost Rules as Written, & Hardened Armor as written does not make sense in the system, & creates various levels of bullshit, most described in this thread.

no.

Not sure if this is what Muspellsheimr was referring to, but the Mystic Armor that a drake has racially is the poorly named critter power not the Adept Power.

Mystic Armor
Type: M • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always
Critters with Mystic Armor have natural protection
from astral attacks. Apply the critter’s Mystic Armor rating
against any astral attacks that strike it. Some critters may also
have hardened Mystic Armor (if they also have the Hardened
Armor power).

I would make 1 minor modification for the Spirits using force hardened armor. I would not allow armor piercing. The point of armor is to bypass the hard part to hurt the squishy parts inside. With the exception of some insect spirits there is not squishy inside so the armor represents the ability to ignore damage.

So our F4 spirit does not feel naked against APDS light pistol rounds.

Sounds reasonable to me - assuming you mean armor PIERCING AMMO. "I throw my armor at you, bypassing your armor and burying it in your squishy bits!"

That is up to individual GMs to decide. The rules do not explicitly state that Critter HA or ItNW cannot be circumvented in this fashion.

Must...resist....sig'ing....this!

Alright! Two goofs in one day. In the same thread, even. I'm going for a record. If the two types of Mystic Armor can combine, then it's against astral attacks, not bullets. My bad. Thank you, Muspellheimr for so tactfully pointing out my error.

So, Draco18s, your issue with drake armor is a sticky one. It's also unfortunate the Magic Attribute isn't doubled up for a magician or adept drake. One pays twice for the first point.

Today is not a good day for me to be discussing the niceties of the rules. So, let me just ask, how would you approach a definition of Immunity such that it could be circumvented by a called shot?

Just to point out the silliness here.

Take...a bon fire. It is immune to fire (has 2xSize in "hardened armor" versus "fire attacks") you have a water pistol and a flame thrower.

Which do you use to put out the fire?

A) The weak water pistol

B) The flame thrower, but take a called shot.

Flamethrower - called shot to BURN UP ALL THE AVAILABLE OXYGEN.

It would totally work.

Maybe in a confined room with little ventilation.

But not out where one normally finds bonfires.

I am not sure what definition you want, there is already a definition for Immunity in the rules.

One in-game explanation I had come up with: There are flaws within the physical manifestion of the entity's ectoplasm that allows the called shot to bypass Immunity. The stronger the spirit, the less flaws there are.

You honor me.
bows

I've looked at the math, and against a force 9 spirit with no AP the damage abruptly goes from zero to 10 (give or take depending on the resistance roll). The jump is less severe and sooner with more armor penetration. Given that those suckers have 13 boxes and you'd need to be doing a zero AP hit worth 19 DV to get to that jump, I have no problem with the rules as written for hardened armor. I imagine that once that bullet manages to get past all that armor it just pings around inside doing all sorts of damage. It makes even more sense against vehicles.

I voted no.

I have other issues with high force spirits, but this is not one of them. They should be scary but rare.

I gave in. My old sig was getting old.

Yay! I do believe that's the first time I've ever been sigged dance