Should hardened armor give auto-hits?, Is it balanced? Options

[Tyro]

This issue has been discussed enough recently that I think a poll is in order. What do you think? I'm not a number cruncher, so I don't know how balanced it is, but assuming it is balanced (and other people's comments lead me to believe so), I like auto-hits better than all or nothing from a thematic standpoint. Also, in my opinion low levels (such as drakes and low-to-medium-Force spirits get - I don't count 7+ as medium force) should really be more useful than they are. All IMO - let's see what you think!

[Draco18s]

I've given my thoughts in various threads. HA by RAW is not useful unless you have a minimum of 8 points of it.

[Tycho]

I voted for No, because if you play by this rules Spirits get nearly impossible to kill without magic.

Even with the normal rules any Spirits with force 5+ are difficult to kill. Imagine if a force 6 Spirit will get 12 auto success...

cya
Tycho

[Draco18s]

I voted for No, because if you play by this rules Spirits get nearly impossible to kill without magic.

Even with the normal rules any Spirits with force 5+ are difficult to kill. Imagine if a force 6 Spirit will get 12 auto success...

cya
Tycho

Actually, the rule proposal includes giving spirits HA equal to their magic.

So a Force 6 spirit has 6 successes.

[Tyro]

Actually, the rule proposal includes giving spirits HA equal to their magic.

So a Force 6 spirit has 6 successes.

I really should have mentioned that. Edited.

[Edit:] You could really mess with people's perceptions by creating a poll, letting people vote, then changing the question O.o

[Tycho]

Try being mod. You can just change the votes as you like (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If Immunity gives only half the Armor it should be worth a try.

cya
Tycho

[Zormal]

I voted yes, because I think the principle of automatic hits is better than the miss-or-kill effect of RAW.

Whether Immunity to Normal Weapons is balanced or not with the proposed rules depends on the amount of automatic hits given by Immunity to Normal Weapons.

2 x Magic autohits leave the immunity (0 damage) as it is, and make for minimal damage after that. Spirits would be very (very) hard to kill.

1 x Magic allows you to damage the immune target with a very low DV compared to RAW, while not changing things much in the upper end of the damage scale. This makes spirits (a lot?) easier to kill.

1.5 x Magic lies somewhere in between. Making it easier to damage spirits little by little, but not making it easy to dish out a lot of damage with any one attack. This makes spirits harder to kill with one or two good shots, but easier to take down with numbers.

spreadsheet calculations from the other thread

[Tyro]

I voted yes, because I think the principle of automatic hits is better than the miss-or-kill effect of RAW.

Whether Immunity to Normal Weapons is balanced or not with the proposed rules depends on the amount of automatic hits given by Immunity to Normal Weapons.

2 x Magic autohits leave the immunity (0 damage) as it is, and make for minimal damage after that. Spirits would be very (very) hard to kill.

1 x Magic allows you to damage the immune target with a very low DV compared to RAW, while not changing things much in the upper end of the damage scale. This makes spirits (a lot?) easier to kill.

1.5 x Magic lies somewhere in between. Making it easier to damage spirits little by little, but not making it easy to dish out a lot of damage with any one attack. This makes spirits harder to kill with one or two good shots, but easier to take down with numbers.

spreadsheet calculations from the other thread

It sounds like 1.5 would be best, then. What about for other (non-Spirit) applications? What's the consensus there?

[Draco18s]

1 x Magic allows you to damage the immune target with a very low DV compared to RAW, while not changing things much in the upper end of the damage scale. This makes spirits (a lot?) easier to kill.

You start doing damage at a lower threshold, yes, but overall (cross spectrum) you're doing less damage. 12 damage against 10 armor is doing 2 boxes, rather than 7.

[Zormal]

You start doing damage at a lower threshold, yes, but overall (cross spectrum) you're doing less damage. 12 damage against 10 armor is doing 2 boxes, rather than 7.

I was comparing Damage to Spirit Force/Magic (Immunity to Normal Weapons).

DV12 against 1 x Magic automatic hits with a Force 10 Spirit does 2 boxes damage, yes.
Against RAW it would do 0 damage, as would DV19.

So overall you're doing more damage. Once you go over the DV for RAW immunity, you do about one box less damage on average.

Unless I missed something.

EDIT: By RAW you get 2 x Magic Hardened Armor. I'm sure you knew that, but I wanted to mention it to be thorough.

[Draco18s]

By RAW you get 2 x Magic Hardened Armor.

You're right, my mistake, I was trying to keep too much in my head at once.

[Zormal]

Been there, done that. No problem (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[pbangarth]

I voted "no" because I believe the case for the "miss-or-kill" argument and it's resolution through automatic hits is overstated. I believe so for four reasons.

1) Immunity to Normal Weapons is scariest with high Force spirits. By RAW, high Force spirits are terrifying. They should be. The arguments that this is a bad thing boil down to fears that magicians who can summon huge spirits are overpowered. I see this as a problem of GMs underutilizing the drawbacks and counterbalances of summoning high Force spirits, rather than an inherent weakness in the rules. If such monsters are prevalent in a game, either on the PC or the NPC side, it is because the GM is not applying these drawbacks and counterbalances effectively.

2) The argument that there exists a problem because the presence of high ItNW requires the opposition to use huge firepower in order to penetrate the Hardened Armor, or else do no damage at all, is a spurious one. Characters will use honking, big weapons because they like to use honking, big weapons, whether they are shooting at spirits or juggernauts or Stuffer Shack employees. As an example, a sniper rifle with special ammunition shows up in most PC teams I've encountered here on Dumpshock. That thing kills anything it hits. It will be carried and used whether the team ever meets something with ItNW or not.

3) The argument that low levels of ItNW are meaningless highlights the focus that players and GMs have on only one or a few forms of damage dealing. There are many things in the Shadowrun universe that are deadly even though they don't "punch" very hard. The paper-scissors-rock principle is fundamental in the Shadowrun universe. I commend the authors for incorporating it into the game. All characters get a chance to shine because of it. A drake's HA of 4 can be the saving factor in the right circumstances. Conversely, a high ItNW requires the opposition to find another way to deal with the creature, rather than shooting it. This is a good thing.

4) The use of automatic hits dramatically overpowers creatures with Hardened Armor, as it's use increases the effect of that armor in reducing damage that does get through. In RAW, if a shot gets through HA, the reduction in damage is approximately 1/3 the value of the HA, not 1X, or 1.5X or 2X the value. With these suggestions for automatic hits, many more creatures become indestructible than with the RAW system, especially if the rule limiting dice pools to 20 is used.

[Draco18s]

A drake's HA of 4 can be the saving factor in the right circumstances.

I laugh good sir. Name a circumstance that has a good possibility of occurring where this would be the case and that 4/4 normal armor would not have been enough.

[Ascalaphus]

I'm in favor, especially with the 1x Magic variant. It means that you'll always notice HA, instead of only on critters with a HA of 10+

Suppose that drake with HA 4; what kind of credible attack does less than 5 damage? A knife, a sword in the hands of an amateur. You're never going to notice that.

Now, if HA is automatic hits, you're always going to have some difficulty getting through it. You'll be sure to notice it on weak enemies too.


If you use the 1x Magic variant, an F9 spirit is actually more doable; your chances of doing 10 damage and passsing on 1, are better than those of doing 19, and passing on a lot. On the other hand, an F4 spirit is going to be a little bit tougher.

[Draco18s]

On the other hand, an F4 spirit is going to be a little bit tougher.

F4 and lower are notably a slight bit tougher, yes. But that's because at-current, HA <8 is useless, despite supposedly providing some protection, which is where the not-even power curve on spirits comes from.*

*F1-4 spirit being a cake-walk and a F5 spirit being trouble, and a F6 spirit being unstoppable.

[Tycho]

...and competent mages can easily summon spirits with force 8, without Drain worth noticing.

cya
Tycho

[Tycho]

...and competent mages can easily summon spirits with force 8, without Drain worth noticing.

cya
Tycho

[Draco18s]

...and competent mages can easily summon spirits with force 8, without Drain worth noticing.

IMO that actually takes a fair bit of twinking. I've never seen that in my group's games. We'll get the occasional "summon Force > Magic" but it typically leaves the mage doing it in a bit of pain (read: borderline unconscious from physical damage).
HOWEVER, even if that's true, that's all the more reason to make those kinds of spirits a bit less over the top.

[pbangarth]

I laugh good sir. Name a circumstance that has a good possibility of occurring where this would be the case and that 4/4 normal armor would not have been enough.

"Good possibility of occurring" depends on the game and the GM. I am starting up a campaign which will be wilderness oriented in which injection-vector toxins will be a distinct possibility. Without letting the cat out of the bag for many others, there is at least one published SR4 campaign in which such vectors are a possibility. Whether injected by insect, tooth, spikey plant, blowgun, shuriken or other weapon, a successful hit is required. Many of those vectors are of very low DV but still apply the venom on a successful hit, even if no damage is inflicted.... in other words even if the weapon damage is resisted. Hardened Armor precludes that possibility, and 4/4 is sufficient to do so in many cases. One may argue that armor can be circumvented by called shots, but critter HA probably, and certainly that provided by ItNW cannot be circumvented in this fashion. In a similar vein, try injecting a drake with sodium pentathol to make him talk or heroine to make him owned. How about the ghoul that gets a basic 4DV claw on the drake?

[soapbox - marginally related]It's been 20 years. Shadowrun should grow up and realize urban life is not the only life on Earth, and there are more runs than urban ones.[/soapbox]

[Draco18s]

In a similar vein, try injecting a drake with sodium pentathol to make him talk or heroine to make him owned. How about the ghoul that gets a basic 4DV claw on the drake?

Drakes are immune to HMHVV. Also, 1 net hit (making the attack connect) bumps the damage up to 5DV, doesn't it?

And being effectively immune to insects and injection vector toxins is a rather niche "immunity" for 60 BP.

[pbangarth]

Drakes are immune to HMHVV. Also, 1 net hit (making the attack connect) bumps the damage up to 5DV, doesn't it?

Ah, missed the HMHVV immunity, so that example is not so good. Yes, one net hit does raise the damage. That's why I limited my point. Weak point. Forget this one.

And being effectively immune to insects and injection vector toxins is a rather niche "immunity" for 60 BP.

60BP buys a lot more than 4/4 HA. For example, your point about immunity to HMHVV. And physical Attribute improvements, a Magic Attribute, Mystic Armor, enhanced senses, flying, elemental attack, natural weapon.... and HA of 4/4. Remove the various equivalents for these characteristics from the total of 60 BP and the portion providing an HA of 4/4 is surely small.

[Draco18s]

60BP buys a lot more than 4/4 HA. For example, your point about immunity to HMHVV. And physical Attribute improvements, a Magic Attribute, Mystic Armor, enhanced senses, flying, elemental attack, natural weapon.... and HA of 4/4. Remove the various equivalents for these characteristics from the total of 60 BP and the portion providing an HA of 4/4 is surely small.

True, the 60 BP is far more than the 4/4 HA, but its the only armor they have in drakeform (without taking Adept/Magician/Mystic Adept) towards material realm attacks, which severely limits the usefulness of that form.

I'm currently playing a character who has no other armor whatsoever, in an attempt to find some benefit for all of a drake's stats (that is, turning into a drake actually gains me armor, rather than loses it, so its considered an asset this time around) to get a better feel for the cost of being one.

[Ascalaphus]

True, the 60 BP is far more than the 4/4 HA, but its the only armor they have in drakeform (without taking Adept/Magician/Mystic Adept) towards material realm attacks, which severely limits the usefulness of that form.

I'm currently playing a character who has no other armor whatsoever, in an attempt to find some benefit for all of a drake's stats (that is, turning into a drake actually gains me armor, rather than loses it, so its considered an asset this time around) to get a better feel for the cost of being one.

Maybe you could use some sort of super-kevlar-spandex suit that can stretch to accomodate shapechanging?

[pbangarth]

True, the 60 BP is far more than the 4/4 HA, but its the only armor they have in drakeform (without taking Adept/Magician/Mystic Adept) towards material realm attacks, which severely limits the usefulness of that form.

OK, so standing naked, the drake in drake form has Mystic armor 4/4 plus HA 4/4 for a total of 8/8. This is equivalent to what many characters can wear normally. With the enhanced BOD attribute of many of the drake forms, your character is similar to a lightly-to-medium armored troll. A troll costs 40 BP, so your drake is definitely not a ripoff.

I'm currently playing a character who has no other armor whatsoever, in an attempt to find some benefit for all of a drake's stats (that is, turning into a drake actually gains me armor, rather than loses it, so its considered an asset this time around) to get a better feel for the cost of being one.

Given that a drake is an Awakened character, it seems sensible to build on the Awakened characteristics he has. Buying the Adept Quality seems a good path, as you already have one Power Point worth of Mystic Armor (yes, I know the critter and adept Mystic Armors are different, but they still stack to block bullets), which can be built upon (giving you more of the armor you want). You already have dual nature, so you don't have to buy Astral Perception with Power Points. And Elemental Attack to go along with other combat skills. You have to acquire the Skill to go along with it, but this is an attack form of unlimited range that works like a spell, but has no Drain.

One thing that confuses me is the Magic Attribute of 1 that comes from being a drake, and how that relates to the Magic Attribute of 1 that comes from the Adept Quality. Do they combine to a 2, before more BP are spent on the Attribute?