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Thanee
post Jan 18 2010, 03:44 PM
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So, looking through Arsenal, I found those nifty Capsule Rounds and checking the Toxin section of the Core book and Arsenal, nothing really seems to be very usable with those... most of the substances are Contact AND Inhalation, which doesn't sound like such a good idea, if you are nearby yourself (of course, you could always take other precautions... but apart from that). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I suppose you would want something with just the Contact Vector, or am I on the wrong path here?

First thought was, of course, Gamma-Scopolamine, but that is Injection now, so not useful that way, anymore (as it was in earlier editions, IIRC).

So... what do you think is a useful substance for Capsule Rounds to incapacitate the target with (best one with Immediate consequences), that doesn't pose a danger for yourself in confined areas?

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Ancient History
post Jan 18 2010, 03:45 PM
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You take a toxin with an injection vector and mix it with DMSO, which makes it a contact vector.
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Draco18s
post Jan 18 2010, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jan 18 2010, 10:45 AM) *
You take a toxin with an injection vector and mix it with DMSO, which makes it a contact vector.


Leas + Slab + DMSO + Capsul round = $398 of instant "I was never here, and you were never shot" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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BetaFlame
post Jan 18 2010, 04:14 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 18 2010, 10:56 AM) *
Leas + Slab + DMSO + Capsul round = $398 of instant "I was never here, and you were never shot" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Borrowing from a movie:

"Who the fuck are you?! Where the fuck am I? Why the fuck am I covered in goo? And WHERE THE FUCK DID THIS BRUISE COME FROM?!"
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Draco18s
post Jan 18 2010, 04:30 PM
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QUOTE (BetaFlame @ Jan 18 2010, 11:14 AM) *
"Who the fuck are you?! Where the fuck am I? Why the fuck am I covered in goo? And WHERE THE FUCK DID THIS BRUISE COME FROM?!"


My reply:
"Come on, you know you like it."
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BRodda
post Jan 18 2010, 05:40 PM
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QUOTE (Thanee @ Jan 18 2010, 10:44 AM) *
I suppose you would want something with just the Contact Vector, or am I on the wrong path here?

Most creative use I've seen was loading them up with the Flu and then shooting things like door handles and other places the security team used. They waited 2 days and made the run when 1/2 the security was out on sick leave.
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Thanee
post Jan 18 2010, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jan 18 2010, 04:45 PM) *
You take a toxin with an injection vector and mix it with DMSO, which makes it a contact vector.


Ah, thanks. Missed that one, apparantly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

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Draco18s
post Jan 18 2010, 06:03 PM
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QUOTE (BRodda @ Jan 18 2010, 12:40 PM) *
Most creative use I've seen was loading them up with the Flu and then shooting things like door handles and other places the security team used. They waited 2 days and made the run when 1/2 the security was out on sick leave.


That's pretty clever.
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Falconer
post Jan 18 2010, 06:56 PM
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What would be the effect of insecticide capsule rounds on insect spirits?
I'm a little unclear on how the capsule rounds work here. In order to inject/dose things they generally have to hurt things... however paint rounds still color the target even if they don't do damage... This should be germane enough not to hijack.. but clarify how these things work.


One... bypass ItNW w/ stun damage... extra DV boost for being loaded w/ a severe allergen. (+4DV).
Two.... capsule breaks on ItNW... douses target... target now suffers +4 damage from further attacks due to being exposed to it's allergen?

NB: group is already using 'bug bombs' gas grenades loaded w/ insecticide... so second effect isn't as usefull and the +4DV is already in play generally.
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hahnsoo
post Jan 18 2010, 08:28 PM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Jan 18 2010, 01:56 PM) *
What would be the effect of insecticide capsule rounds on insect spirits?
I'm a little unclear on how the capsule rounds work here. In order to inject/dose things they generally have to hurt things... however paint rounds still color the target even if they don't do damage... This should be germane enough not to hijack.. but clarify how these things work.


One... bypass ItNW w/ stun damage... extra DV boost for being loaded w/ a severe allergen. (+4DV).
Two.... capsule breaks on ItNW... douses target... target now suffers +4 damage from further attacks due to being exposed to it's allergen?

NB: group is already using 'bug bombs' gas grenades loaded w/ insecticide... so second effect isn't as usefull and the +4DV is already in play generally.
Use the rules for the KE IV Insecticide toxin:
* The Insect Spirit gets -4 to all tasks while the Insecticide is on it (Severe Allergy)
* Bypasses Immunity to Normal Weapons to deal Power 8 Toxin damage (Physical), which is resisted by a Toxin Resistance test (Body only, no Armor applies)
* The damage is Acid damage, so it re-applies the damage every turn for (Rating) Combat Turns. Rating is up in the air (is it base DV? DV after initial Toxin Reduction?), but the GM should be able to figure this out. I'd rule as 8 Turns, just for simplicity.
* Chance for the Insect to go berserk as Bear shamans do.
* It is a contact toxin, so no need for DMSO.

As KE IV is a potent Insecticide, you may remove any/all of these effects or lower the power for less potent ones. However, KE IV is legal (8 Avail) and cheap (10 nuyen per dose. Some ammo is more expensive than this).
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crash2029
post Jan 18 2010, 10:57 PM
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DMSO + zen
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Sengir
post Jan 18 2010, 11:40 PM
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K-10. Best distraction ever (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Ascalaphus
post Jan 19 2010, 03:01 AM
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QUOTE (BetaFlame @ Jan 18 2010, 05:14 PM) *
Borrowing from a movie:

"Who the fuck are you?! Where the fuck am I? Why the fuck am I covered in goo? And WHERE THE FUCK DID THIS BRUISE COME FROM?!"



You are so totally right. This thing isn't complete without one other drug that just causes you to feel happy, and vaguely recall the aftereffects...

"I must have taken [xxx], I totally don't remember the last n hours, but I feel haaaaappy...."
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Falconer
post Jan 19 2010, 03:39 AM
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Thanks for the answer hahnso. It doesn't fully answer my question though.

The chemical itself is fairly straightforward... even down to it's speed... immediate. (which doesn't mean right away, but at the end of that combat turn, after all the IP's).

One thing to keep in mind, is even the fastest acting chemicals aren't all that fast, and generally against spirits... you need the damage now... not after 2 passes have gone by.


The capsule rounds themselves do stun damage on impact... since they're delivering a toxin... do they count to bypass ItNW. Or are we reliant on the +4DV from the insecticide and a good hit to penetrate the.


IE: I have a SMG, DR5. I fire it at bug spirit... 1 net hit. Is it DR6... or DR10 (gel round.. .breaks on impact). If you get the +dam, then you've by the same margin also bypassed the ItNW as you've triggered the allergy. Also obviously, first round hits... bug takes a -4 penalty on all it's actions (including dodging the second shot). And obviously at the end of the combat turn... the chemical damage takes place. Even worse, if the ItNW isn't triggered it's got a +2 AP penalty increasing the immunity threshhold.


Though flipside... another thought is how much does acid cost! Gel rounds loaded w/ acid would also be an interesting idea for general use just for raw damage.
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hahnsoo
post Jan 19 2010, 03:56 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Jan 18 2010, 10:39 PM) *
Thanks for the answer hahnso. It doesn't fully answer my question though.

The chemical itself is fairly straightforward... even down to it's speed... immediate. (which doesn't mean right away, but at the end of that combat turn, after all the IP's).

One thing to keep in mind, is even the fastest acting chemicals aren't all that fast, and generally against spirits... you need the damage now... not after 2 passes have gone by.


The capsule rounds themselves do stun damage on impact... since they're delivering a toxin... do they count to bypass ItNW. Or are we reliant on the +4DV from the insecticide and a good hit to penetrate the.


IE: I have a SMG, DR5. I fire it at bug spirit... 1 net hit. Is it DR6... or DR10 (gel round.. .breaks on impact). If you get the +dam, then you've by the same margin also bypassed the ItNW. Also obviously, first round hits... bug takes a -4 penalty on all it's actions (including dodging the second shot). And obviously at the end of the combat turn... the chemical damage takes place.


Though flipside... another thought is how much does acid cost! Gel rounds loaded w/ acid would also be an interesting idea for general use just for raw damage.
Acid is hellaciously expensive, for whatever reason. Something like Rating times 500 per dose. Not cost effective by any means. I won't get the Pestilent Defiler from Borderlands, I guess. At least, not against non-Insect targets.

There are arguments that you don't get additional allergy damage from the Chemical. If you want allergy damage from the chemical, you would have to use a specialized round that is made with an Insecticide compound, just like the rules for silver bullets.

In either case, you'd get the -4 to all actions as soon as you hit the insect (since it's immediate upon exposure, per the Allergy rules). All of the other effects are part of the chemical's effects.

By RAW, they are just Gel Rounds, so deal damage as Gel Rounds without the increased knockdown of Gel Rounds, I guess. *shrugs* In our games, similar to the rule used for Shock Gloves versus Unarmed, you don't get the stun damage from the round, only the compound within. There is precedent for this, if you look at the rules for the Slingshot in Arsenal:
"A slingshot uses shuriken ranges. If firing hard projectiles, use the damage code listed, while capsule rounds usually do no damage but can provide other effects depending on the possible payload." It cuts down on the bookkeeping, at least.
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kanislatrans
post Jan 19 2010, 03:56 AM
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for those pesky hellhounds that the some places use as guards, how about urine from a female hellhound in heat? shoot the two legged guards with them to slow them down.(its hard to run while you have a hellhound humping each of your legs) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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wind_in_the_ston...
post Jan 19 2010, 04:06 AM
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Two chemicals that explode on contact with each other? Alternating in a clip, and fired full-auto.
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Saint Sithney
post Jan 19 2010, 04:54 AM
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Man, if you've managed to hit someone with a kilogram worth of bullets and they're still standing, you'd best run.
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wind_in_the_ston...
post Jan 19 2010, 05:55 AM
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Or risk being bludgeoned by a flaming troll! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Manunancy
post Jan 19 2010, 06:06 AM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Jan 19 2010, 04:56 AM) *
Acid is hellaciously expensive, for whatever reason. Something like Rating times 500 per dose. Not cost effective by any means. I won't get the Pestilent Defiler from Borderlands, I guess. At least, not against non-Insect targets.


Simply because that sort of alien's blood like effect requires an extremely powerful acid. With the added trouble of holding it in the round for a rather long time as well as making it thick enough to cling to the target rather than drip to the ground.
Normal acids, even extremely strong ones, requires at least minutes to chew through something arther than seconds.
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The Jopp
post Jan 19 2010, 11:31 AM
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For the poor runner I'd suggest Pepper Punch.

Having the opponent vomit his guts out and going all teary eyed is a great distraction for them - and cheap.

I suggest having these as "riot grenades" as well.

Not usre if it can work but having DMSO and Quicksilver might be an odd addition. They sure wont mix in the normal sense.
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Xahn Borealis
post Jan 19 2010, 01:55 PM
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I can't help but wonder what happens if you take any corrosive chemical and mix it with DMSO... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Acidsaliva
post Jan 19 2010, 11:18 PM
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QUOTE
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 18 2010, 10:56 AM) *
Leas + Slab + DMSO + Capsule round = $398 of instant "I was never here, and you were never shot" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)


That sounds great ! How did you get that price tag ? Is that per bullet/capsule ? Like Slab being (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 150 as per ARS p76. Is that for a single dose ?
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Draco18s
post Jan 20 2010, 12:22 AM
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QUOTE (Acidsaliva @ Jan 19 2010, 06:18 PM) *
That sounds great ! How did you get that price tag ? Is that per bullet/capsule ? Like Slab being (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 150 as per ARS p76. Is that for a single dose ?


Someone else posted the $398 cost, but its derived from 1 capsule round + 1 dose of slab + 1 dose of Leas + either 1 or 2 doses of DMSO.
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wind_in_the_ston...
post Jan 20 2010, 02:17 AM
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How many doses fit in a capsule? That's two or three doses listed. So each round only holds half a dose worth of the mixed chemicals? And the cost of chemicals per round would be halved.
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