The only reason why you don't see me telling people of Haiti to suck it up is most of them do not have a choice to live there or not. Oh, and what did you think the "rarity" reason was? Read between the lines, they are saying, "yeah, screw Oni, life's not fair", only more politely.

To me every character is simply done according to the rules or not. Each player has an equal opportunity and resources to choose the same pool of options as other players, that is balance.

My simple Question to you would be this... Why would you ever choose a Troll over an Ork... almost as strong, almost as good of body and yet the Troll is twice the cost... is that one point of reach and dermal armor that good? Not in my book, but you know what, I play trolls from time to time, even though they cost more... I play a Shapeshifter, from time to time, even though they do not work according to a lot of people... hell I typically choose Human over most other races... because I can... Why? because i tend to create a character based upon a concept and then see how far that I can take it... Shadowrun is not about trying to pile on every little thing to eke out the greatest dice pool in existence... it is a game for telling stories... Stories about individuals, whether they be an Oni or a Vampire, or whatever...

Creating a character is a choice... And guess what... the Oni only costs 5 more BP than an Ork... a single level of skill difference... wow, if a single level of skill makes a character unplayable, well then I would say that your expectations of the game may be somewhat unreasonable as well...

I mean Really... 5 BP is a make or break for a character? Really?

Just sayin'

Keep the Faith

So only the ones that chose to live there deserved to die? Sorry, but I'm not buying it. You should start backpedaling on that now.


No, they're saying "This is rare, so there should be fewer of them, and to enforce this, we're making it cost you points." The polite version is, "We felt that certain metatypes should be inferior to others, mechanically." I don't see them saying that.



You keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means.

Hypothetically, if humans cost 100bp with no adjustment to the stats, you're saying that would be balanced because anyone can choose to not play humans? What if EVERY metatype, including humans, changelings, and infected, cost 0bp. Is that balanced? Say every gun except the predator did 1DV and the Predator did 50DV. Is that balanced? I mean, the rule applies equally to everyone playing the game, and you don't have to choose to play one of the ones that sucks, right?

You are aware that your argument is essentially "no matter what the book says, it's always balanced, regardless." You are aware that this renders the word entirely without meaning, right? Hey, what if the book said that any adult named Robert got 300 extra bp at character creation? I mean, you chose not to legally change your name, right? So that's perfectly fair and balanced still, right?

The point isn't the number of points, it's that you have to pay them at all... especially that you have to pay them for some types and you get a bonus for other types. Say it was 50bp? Would you say that would be ok? If not, then doesn't that just make it less wrong? If you're cool with less wrong, that's your choice, but some of us would rather things be, you know... right.

Those that chose to live there, chose to take their chances. I am not selling anything, I am telling you the way it is. No backpedalling needed.

You just choose not to see that. It is your choice.

Yes, it is balanced. If everyone has the option to choose whether they wanted to play humans or use the predator, then it is balanced. Actually my argument is that as long as you have an informed choice, then it is balanced. If the book does say that Robert gets extra 300 BP at char gen, then it is fair and balanced, you can always call yourself Robert. The book does not say that you must legally be known as Robert; by your wording, the character can easily be an adult called Robert and get 300 extra bps, and it would still be fair. Everyone has the choice to be Robert. So yes, right, perfectly fair and balanced.

Really? They deserved to die for choosing to live in Haiti? That's harsh.

Also, thank you for admitting that you are using some new form of the word "balance" that has pretty much nothing to do with the standard English definition, that makes it much easier to understand you.

Oh, and in what universe does the words "named" and "call yourself" mean the same thing? Even if they did, by your logic it doesn't matter, anyway. If the book said "If your legal name is Robert," you'd still be insisting it's balanced and fair because anyone can choose to change their name.

Quit trying to pretend your stance is anything other than "the book is right because that's what is says in the book and the book is always right." It's become blatantly obvious at this point. Just own it. Seriously, by your reasoning, can you even imagine a thing that is NOT balanced the book might say?

I am using the standard English definition of the world.

v. bal·anced, bal·anc·ing, bal·anc·es
v.tr.
3. To bring into or maintain in a state of equilibrium.
4. To act as an equalizing weight or force to; counterbalance.

Your choice is the ultimate balancing force.

My stance is that "the book simply is". There are some things in the book I think was unbalanced. For one, in SR4, there was no choice as to the character creation system to use until Runner's Companion.

"Pay BP" for "rare" is not an "equalized weight."

"Rare" has no effect on the game (unless you count it being a Distinctive Style, in which case... +5BP = -5BP?) therefore has no weight.

I play drakes because, well, dragons are fucking badass. My last drake, I commented once "this character would have been better at being what he was built as a troll" and I had three good reasons:

1) Troll was 20 BP cheaper.
2) Trolls had stat benefits above what I had in drake form only.
3) None of that messy business shifting from one form to another.

But I still decided to play a drake again. Why? Find the niche that takes advantage of all of a drake's benefits. I actually gain armor when I shift this time. Hell, I even took some of the disadvantages and found a way to benefit from them (that whole "being naked" thing--grabbed Dynamic Chameleon Skin and voila: +2 or +4 to Infiltrate when naked).

But it is your choice that acts as the equilizing weight. Pay BP for race is an equalised weight if you choose the option. Rare does have an effect on the game, there should be less player characters of that race, so the GM should have lesser chances of having to deal with such a PC.

No. Wrong. Choice is what I do after I decide which of two options I like better.

Yes. Right. Choice is not which is the better option, your choice is up to you, it is the balancing force.

I think no option can be balanced, except against itself. What is balanced is that within the character generation process you get to make your choices.

No. Wrong.

Consider:

Would you like $50 now, or $100 next week?

$100 next week of course. You can wait: cost vs. benefit.

How about this:

$100 now or $50 next week?

$100 now because why would I ever want the other option? It is not balanced.

Oni vs. Orc is the second example, not the first.

Cost: BP, Benefit: Choice is incorrect. Benefit is getting more for a cost of getting it later and that is the CHOICE I make between my OPTIONS.

So... you looked it up in the dictionary, and you still can't figure out what the word "balance" means? You think the only thing that can be unbalanced is not having a choice? Really? The only thing you could think of that was unbalanced is "everyone uses the exact method to build their characters?" By that logic, the metavariants are unbalanced because you don't have the choice to play an Oni for a different bp cost.

Me personal favorite is the idea that no option can be balanced except against itself, in flgrant disregard for the entire concept of balance, which you just looked up yourself.

Actually, I'd say there's a difference between balanced and fair. It's "fair" to the players to give everyone the same set of options, but it's not particularly balanced to have only one of those options be worth a damn, nor is it generally considered good game design to give players dead end choices, particularly in games that are competitive as opposed to table top rpgs. Now, I won't go so far as to say that this is what actually happens with SR4, but I do think that this conversation is simply a case of people talking past each other. Giving players an even playing field is not necessarily the same thing as providing them with interesting choices.

Oni are balanced for cost.

Base cost: 20
Striking Skin Pigmentation: -5
Get to wangst over playing an "oppressed minority": +5
Get to preen smugly about being a "real roleplayer" for playing a numerically disadvantaged metatype: +5
_______________
Net cost: 25

Personally, I think it was very broad-minded of the developers to give powergamers like me new metatypes such as the wakyambis, gnomes, satyrs, and fomori, while giving the roleplayers new metatypes such as the nartaki, night ones, xapiri thepe, and oni. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yes. Right.

Pay $100 for a white or black car. Pay $200 for a car of the same make and model in any other color. There is no additional performance benefit to having a colored car.

This is the correct example. Hence most cars are black or white, some people choose to have their cars in other colors. Cost: BP, Benefit: Choice is correct.

I'm sorry, I don't see those two positive qualities listed in my book. Page reference? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

Sorry... I've never even heard of a person, real or imagined, that didn't have the option of whining about being an oppressed minority, and most of them do.

+1 humor point, though. I got an honest chuckle out of it.

You left out the part where the colored cars perform suboptimally.

Also, you left out the part where in no way, shape, or form represents the concept of "balance." It doesn't even pretend to.

I looked it up and I know what it means. You do not seem to understand that your entire concept of balance is in flagrant disregard for what is stated. The scales are weighted on one side, it is your choice balances the scales. The options are not going to be balanced of themselves unless they are identical to each other.

No.

Cost: BP.
Benefit: Ego Stroking.

HOWEVER, a stroked ego only is a benefit in a competitive game. When you're all sitting on the same side of the table its meaningless. In a competitive game it works because "Look, I can still beat you even though I spent more resources on this shiny button."

Choice is what I make between my options. Gameplay options should be balanced against each other.

Choice (meaning to choose) is a verb. Option is a noun. Do not confuse the two.

No, the colored cars perform as optimally as a black/white car less the cost and that is your choice. They may perform less than the black/white cars if you so choose to use the additional cost to boost its performance, balance is that the players all have the same amount of resources to choose the car they want.

That you do not understand the concept of balance is obvious.

..and yet you just keep using it wrong. Interesting, that.


Sorry, but you saying so does not make it so. If I lay a thousand pounds of gold one side of a scale and five pounds of gold on the other does the scale magically become balanced if you get to choose which side you want? Does your choice weigh nine hundred and ninety-five pounds? Something tells me that if we were to try this out, we would find that the scale stubbornly stays tilted toward the heavier side, no matter how strongly you choose.



Wow... project much?

Ah then, I disagree. Gameplay options need not be balanced against each other. Gameplay options, by necessity, are imbalanced against each other, unless they are identical which means that they are the same and not options.


Sorry, but you saying so does not make it so.

Actually it would. Choice to me is the fulcrum. Choosing is shifting the fulcrum.
Only as much as you. That is balance.