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The Jopp
post Jan 25 2010, 09:19 AM
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Ok, apparently I've missed the little detail that tells you that AI's can only run the following programs...

Common
Hacking
Knowsoft
Agent Autosoft Programs

Ok, so what does this mean? For a being who IS essentially software and can code it's own?

With the above ruling it cannot use:
Drone Autosofts [Can be used with Piloting Origin]
Sensor Software
Simsense Software
Skillsofts

But it can use:
Common
Hacking
Knowsoft
Agent Autosoft

What does this mean:
Since sensor software is not allowed you cannot make a pure Software based AI since it would lack basic Etiquette skill and cannot use Empathy software.

Personally I would allow it IF you have the following (both):
A: Sensors
B: Quality: Piloting Origin

The latter allows you to be in a drone and the previous is usually installed in a drone so that you CAN perceive the world and know how learn and interpret bodylanguage (lets just call it Emoticon Knowledge for the AI).

What more:
Agent Autosofts...

So, we can actually use Homeground Autosoft...+3 Matrix Perception to the node we are/live in...the DRONE we live in...

Replicate...Want to spread the love? Make a copy of yourself in EVERY drone you own

Expert Offense: +3 matrix combat
Expert Defense: +3 matrix defense

Adaptability..well, kinda redundant

Cascading ...kinda useful

Unanswered Questions
Something that has come up but I have never found a real answer on...

Do AI's and Agents gain a +2 Matrix Dice for the equivalent of Hotsim - they ARE after all data and should already be faster than cold-sim humans.
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Summerstorm
post Jan 25 2010, 10:22 AM
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Well... no. As much as i would like it (I LOVE AI's), they don't get the hotsim. Hm, as a GM i would maybe give it to them, together with the ability to get more IP's. It is silly that both Hackers and Technomancers are much faster in the net. So i would let them install a bastardized version of a "simsense-booster" in their nexus/comlink and let them somehow emulate a simsense-connection. Maybe with a specialized program, incorporating the "biofeedback-filter".

Question then becomes: "But do they lose their immunity to black attacks when they do it?"

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The Jopp
post Jan 25 2010, 11:15 AM
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Another thing that always confuse me...

What does an AI "look" like to other matrix users?

You can identify Icons like Agent, IC or People - but what is AI's classified like? Do they emulate the looks of a Persona or do people see them as an Agent or IC program, or even as a drone?

Sicne they are unique and playable I would say Persona as I can see how hostile hackers and agents/IC attack with Black Hammer and they just shrug it off.

Another thing that I find a bit odd.

AI's cannot use Simsense Software - ok, BTL's dont work, but what about useful software - Like ARE programs

Wallspace (Creating on the fly AR maps for teammates)
Playing Miracle Shooter
Adding a Virtual person in your node - or pet
Virtual Surround Music
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The Jopp
post Jan 25 2010, 11:41 AM
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Another oddity:

What happens when an AI use Replicate on itself?

Can it create multiples of itself on other nodes? I would assume these "agent" versions of itself lack the codebase of the original and have none of the Node bonuses - or character qualities (which is a bit odd as it should be part of the code).

Or can they simply not use it - which is a contradiction of the rules by RAW. Besides, a Malware Worm AI would be cool - infecting the teams commlinks...
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Summerstorm
post Jan 25 2010, 12:40 PM
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First: They can't use simsense because they don't have any senses or part of the brain interpreting these signals (which explains their imunity to black attacks) But they should get the +2 hotsim bonus (in my opinion) because they are much nearer to the code... to the REAL matrix than even a technomancer. All they do is getting a universal datastream, replacing all their senses at once. This for example takes their NEED to have a "virtual surround sound" and such. YES, they can appreciate the esthetics of such a datastream, but they don't really HEAR at all.

Of course i would allow them to play "Miracle shooter" and such per the "emulated simsense-connection" i suggested.

With the Icons: The AI get to choose it like a hacker. IC's and agents have an normal icon too. If you get to analyze it, maybe with enough hits the people see that there are just very sophisticated but conform signals, hinting at something else than a "living organism" as a controller.

Replicate: The "Agent Smith"- routine, eh? As far as i know, AI's can't replicate themselves. They are a complex running program. If you disable them and then copy them somehow the copy will have no "spark of life" and will not function. It is unknown why that is. (Don't know where i read it... if someone has the patience to try and get that quote somehow?)

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Mordinvan
post Jan 25 2010, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Jan 25 2010, 05:40 AM) *
First: They can't use simsense because they don't have any senses or part of the brain interpreting these signals (which explains their imunity to black attacks)

But could they code themselves one?

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The Jopp
post Jan 25 2010, 05:14 PM
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QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Jan 25 2010, 01:40 PM) *
Replicate: The "Agent Smith"- routine, eh? As far as i know, AI's can't replicate themselves. They are a complex running program. If you disable them and then copy them somehow the copy will have no "spark of life" and will not function. It is unknown why that is. (Don't know where i read it... if someone has the patience to try and get that quote somehow?)


The funny thing is that an Agent which is an active program in its own right can run and replicate itself to another node. AI's are even described as "An AI counts as a Single program towards the process limit of the node in which it is residing. Here's the fun part then, it is not an OS that takes over a device, it BOOST an already existing device. Another description is that AI's may very well have been an agent to begin with. The Welcome to my mind section in Runner Companion is very useful there.

The funny thing is that they also say that "Artificial Intelligences are intricate dynamic programs and cannot be copied and have backups made" from "Realignment and Restoration".

But if an AI can use Replicate and use it just as an Agent could (it might very well have BEEN an agent malware) then perhaps they mean that OTHERS cannot copy it but the AI can make copies of itself. This of course have drawbacks.

Creating a copy of an Agent of programs means that if you analyze their icon or Access ID you get ALL their access ID'n since they have the same one.

By RAW it is allowed but at the same time contradicted.
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Garou
post Jan 25 2010, 05:40 PM
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i don't remember the A.I. Rules well, so forgive me if i am mistaken, but maybe it could replicate only it's code shell, a fake or still persona, to another nodes, deactivated. To an observed, it might look like a dumpshocked icon or someone "Away From Keyboard", Or Lagged and waiting a disconnection that will never occurs, but at any time, can be transfered to the "life code" of the A.I. Perhaps the two icons could be linked by a stream of data, (sort of like a datatrail), so it could be user as a "Spare body" In the matrix.

Just wondering. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Draco18s
post Jan 25 2010, 06:51 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 25 2010, 04:19 AM) *
Replicate...Want to spread the love? Make a copy of yourself in EVERY drone you own


Uh. You can't duplicate AIs.
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The Jopp
post Jan 25 2010, 08:18 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 25 2010, 07:51 PM) *
Uh. You can't duplicate AIs.


As I wrote above - according to RAW an AI can use REPLICATE Agent Autosoft to replicate itself to another node. The contradiction is that you cannot copy an AI program - but they say nothing about the AI copying itself.

Since an Agent can replicate itself and the AI can use the agent autosoft replicate to replicate itself into another node it seems that way.

There is a contradiction in the rules - that's all I'm saying.

The main point is that REPLICATE is not COPYING the AI. Still, a clarification is needed.
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Delarn
post Jan 25 2010, 08:35 PM
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AI can use drones, they can use autosoft and if the drone is wired to use skillsoft it can use it.
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Snuggly Buffalo
post Jan 26 2010, 07:20 AM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 25 2010, 01:18 PM) *
As I wrote above - according to RAW an AI can use REPLICATE Agent Autosoft to replicate itself to another node. The contradiction is that you cannot copy an AI program - but they say nothing about the AI copying itself.

Since an Agent can replicate itself and the AI can use the agent autosoft replicate to replicate itself into another node it seems that way.

There is a contradiction in the rules - that's all I'm saying.

The main point is that REPLICATE is not COPYING the AI. Still, a clarification is needed.


Actually, if you check page 110 of Unwired, it deals with AIs and the Replicate Autosoft: "note that sprites, AIs, and e-ghosts, as "living" digital entities, are incapable of copying themselves this way."
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The Jopp
post Jan 26 2010, 07:46 AM
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QUOTE (Snuggly Buffalo @ Jan 26 2010, 08:20 AM) *
Actually, if you check page 110 of Unwired, it deals with AIs and the Replicate Autosoft: "note that sprites, AIs, and e-ghosts, as "living" digital entities, are incapable of copying themselves this way."


Aaah, shadowrun RPG - where you need to check multiple books to be able to understand how ONE archetype works.

Yup, missed that one since I actually believed they had that covered in Runner Companion.
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Saint Sithney
post Jan 27 2010, 08:31 AM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 25 2010, 01:19 AM) *
What does this mean:
Since sensor software is not allowed you cannot make a pure Software based AI since it would lack basic Etiquette skill and cannot use Empathy software.

Personally I would allow it IF you have the following (both):
A: Sensors
B: Quality: Piloting Origin

The latter allows you to be in a drone and the previous is usually installed in a drone so that you CAN perceive the world and know how learn and interpret bodylanguage (lets just call it Emoticon Knowledge for the AI).


It's important to remember that the matrix, as of 4th ed, uses a node interface of artificial environments designed to mirror the real world. Of course, ala Second Life, the actual laws of reality in said nodes are up the the admin, but it's still meant to be an approximation to reality. As such, icons, for most legitimate users at least, do have facial expressions, voice patterns, etc. Add to that the fact that they're completely capable of containing "sim rooms" wherein a user can hit up a virtual entertainment system capable of trideo and video display. As such, even a Matrix-native being should have the ability to perceive and understand the world outside the Matrix.
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The Jopp
post Jan 27 2010, 11:12 AM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jan 27 2010, 09:31 AM) *
It's important to remember that the matrix, as of 4th ed, uses a node interface of artificial environments designed to mirror the real world. Of course, ala Second Life, the actual laws of reality in said nodes are up the the admin, but it's still meant to be an approximation to reality. As such, icons, for most legitimate users at least, do have facial expressions, voice patterns, etc. Add to that the fact that they're completely capable of containing "sim rooms" wherein a user can hit up a virtual entertainment system capable of trideo and video display. As such, even a Matrix-native being should have the ability to perceive and understand the world outside the Matrix.


Which makes it even more silly that they cannot use sensor software to make up for a lack of etiquette skills. Or for that matter Facial recognition software, lie detector software etc.
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Saint Sithney
post Jan 27 2010, 11:28 AM
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I houserule the hell out of AIs. The 2 pages in RC is insufficient for an archetype so fundamentally different from all others.
I mean, even a free spirit has easy access to the physical world via materialization.
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The Jopp
post Jan 27 2010, 11:46 AM
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The funny thing is that you can make an incredibly diverse AI with Autosofts and Programs with Pilot Origin - Cheaply.

250K cash
Drone body

Buy all skills as Autosofts or software since there are basically no skills that arent covered by a program/autosoft.

The only limit is Skill+Program which will be limited to Autosoft (4) and Program (6).

Add a few qualities to that, optimize a commlink and put it into a drone and you can Spoof with 13D6

If you play that AI's get Hotsim they have 15D6. Give them homeground autosoft and they have +5 Matrix Perception / +7 if they have hotsim bonus.
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The Jopp
post Jan 27 2010, 12:17 PM
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Another slight headache.

Pilot is equal to the OS of a drone

An AI counts as a running program within the OS - in this case within the pilot.

An AI with pilot origin can "jump into" the drone and run it as a rigger.

Do I even NEED a "pilot" program for a Drone or can I replace the pilot with a regular OS?

After all - Since the AI would be "living" with the drone it would be rigging it all the time and will not really need the pilot.

Dunno, I just find the actual pilot a bit redundant if you are a Pilot AI from start...If you have a pilot origin then YOU should be allowed to be the actual pilot program, and in that case the actual OS.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jan 27 2010, 12:26 PM
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Sure you can replace Pilot with System... or the other way round.
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The Jopp
post Jan 27 2010, 12:29 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jan 27 2010, 01:26 PM) *
Sure you can replace Pilot with System... or the other way round.


The only wrng I can see with this is that buyng a rating 6 System/Firewall in a drone is cheaper than a Rating 4 pilot - on the other hand the OS cannot make decisions on its own, a pilot can.
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StealthSigma
post Jan 27 2010, 12:52 PM
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QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Jan 25 2010, 06:22 AM) *
Well... no. As much as i would like it (I LOVE AI's), they don't get the hotsim. Hm, as a GM i would maybe give it to them, together with the ability to get more IP's. It is silly that both Hackers and Technomancers are much faster in the net. So i would let them install a bastardized version of a "simsense-booster" in their nexus/comlink and let them somehow emulate a simsense-connection. Maybe with a specialized program, incorporating the "biofeedback-filter".


I'm going to ask why do you feel it's wrong that the flesh and blood technomancers and hackers can be faster than AIs?

Aside from the balance issue of AIs not suffering the negative side effects of a hot sim, the meta-human brain likely is capable of far more computational capacity than the AI's node.

--

QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 25 2010, 07:15 AM) *
What does an AI "look" like to other matrix users?


Cortana.

--

QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 26 2010, 03:46 AM) *
Aaah, shadowrun RPG - where you need to check multiple books to be able to understand how ONE archetype works.

Yup, missed that one since I actually believed they had that covered in Runner Companion.


IIRC, RC was released after Unwired. Unwired already had mentioned all the rules for AIs. RC just gave an official means to allow players to make their own.
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The Jopp
post Jan 27 2010, 01:05 PM
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QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jan 27 2010, 01:52 PM) *
Cortana.


Shodan...
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The Jopp
post Jan 27 2010, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jan 27 2010, 01:52 PM) *
I'm going to ask why do you feel it's wrong that the flesh and blood technomancers and hackers can be faster than AIs?

Aside from the balance issue of AIs not suffering the negative side effects of a hot sim, the meta-human brain likely is capable of far more computational capacity than the AI's node.


Ok, balance wise it makes abit of sense Metahumans=Addictions AI's=No Hotsim

But at the same time - In order to get a hacker online they need simsense, which is a simsense signal, which in itself is a medium between hacker - matrix.

An AI or Agent have Agent-Matrix while hacker has Hacker-Simsense-Matrix.

By that description agents and AI should have a faster "connection" to the matrix.
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hahnsoo
post Jan 29 2010, 05:53 AM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 27 2010, 08:05 AM) *
Shodan...

Max Headroom?
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Delarn
post Jan 29 2010, 08:22 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 27 2010, 12:17 PM) *
Another slight headache.

Pilot is equal to the OS of a drone

An AI counts as a running program within the OS - in this case within the pilot.

An AI with pilot origin can "jump into" the drone and run it as a rigger.

Do I even NEED a "pilot" program for a Drone or can I replace the pilot with a regular OS?

After all - Since the AI would be "living" with the drone it would be rigging it all the time and will not really need the pilot.

Dunno, I just find the actual pilot a bit redundant if you are a Pilot AI from start...If you have a pilot origin then YOU should be allowed to be the actual pilot program, and in that case the actual OS.


AI while jumped in can use the Pilot instead of AGILITY or it's own piloting skill ! Wich ever is better.
Body and Strength are = to the Body of the Drone and the Reaction = Pilot or Piloting skill ... Just like the Cyborg. Because the Cyborg is truly and E-Ghost that is in a Jarhead. So an AI can also use the same rules to justify it's Otomo body.
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