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The Jopp
Ok, apparently I've missed the little detail that tells you that AI's can only run the following programs...

Common
Hacking
Knowsoft
Agent Autosoft Programs

Ok, so what does this mean? For a being who IS essentially software and can code it's own?

With the above ruling it cannot use:
Drone Autosofts [Can be used with Piloting Origin]
Sensor Software
Simsense Software
Skillsofts

But it can use:
Common
Hacking
Knowsoft
Agent Autosoft

What does this mean:
Since sensor software is not allowed you cannot make a pure Software based AI since it would lack basic Etiquette skill and cannot use Empathy software.

Personally I would allow it IF you have the following (both):
A: Sensors
B: Quality: Piloting Origin

The latter allows you to be in a drone and the previous is usually installed in a drone so that you CAN perceive the world and know how learn and interpret bodylanguage (lets just call it Emoticon Knowledge for the AI).

What more:
Agent Autosofts...

So, we can actually use Homeground Autosoft...+3 Matrix Perception to the node we are/live in...the DRONE we live in...

Replicate...Want to spread the love? Make a copy of yourself in EVERY drone you own

Expert Offense: +3 matrix combat
Expert Defense: +3 matrix defense

Adaptability..well, kinda redundant

Cascading ...kinda useful

Unanswered Questions
Something that has come up but I have never found a real answer on...

Do AI's and Agents gain a +2 Matrix Dice for the equivalent of Hotsim - they ARE after all data and should already be faster than cold-sim humans.
Summerstorm
Well... no. As much as i would like it (I LOVE AI's), they don't get the hotsim. Hm, as a GM i would maybe give it to them, together with the ability to get more IP's. It is silly that both Hackers and Technomancers are much faster in the net. So i would let them install a bastardized version of a "simsense-booster" in their nexus/comlink and let them somehow emulate a simsense-connection. Maybe with a specialized program, incorporating the "biofeedback-filter".

Question then becomes: "But do they lose their immunity to black attacks when they do it?"

The Jopp
Another thing that always confuse me...

What does an AI "look" like to other matrix users?

You can identify Icons like Agent, IC or People - but what is AI's classified like? Do they emulate the looks of a Persona or do people see them as an Agent or IC program, or even as a drone?

Sicne they are unique and playable I would say Persona as I can see how hostile hackers and agents/IC attack with Black Hammer and they just shrug it off.

Another thing that I find a bit odd.

AI's cannot use Simsense Software - ok, BTL's dont work, but what about useful software - Like ARE programs

Wallspace (Creating on the fly AR maps for teammates)
Playing Miracle Shooter
Adding a Virtual person in your node - or pet
Virtual Surround Music
The Jopp
Another oddity:

What happens when an AI use Replicate on itself?

Can it create multiples of itself on other nodes? I would assume these "agent" versions of itself lack the codebase of the original and have none of the Node bonuses - or character qualities (which is a bit odd as it should be part of the code).

Or can they simply not use it - which is a contradiction of the rules by RAW. Besides, a Malware Worm AI would be cool - infecting the teams commlinks...
Summerstorm
First: They can't use simsense because they don't have any senses or part of the brain interpreting these signals (which explains their imunity to black attacks) But they should get the +2 hotsim bonus (in my opinion) because they are much nearer to the code... to the REAL matrix than even a technomancer. All they do is getting a universal datastream, replacing all their senses at once. This for example takes their NEED to have a "virtual surround sound" and such. YES, they can appreciate the esthetics of such a datastream, but they don't really HEAR at all.

Of course i would allow them to play "Miracle shooter" and such per the "emulated simsense-connection" i suggested.

With the Icons: The AI get to choose it like a hacker. IC's and agents have an normal icon too. If you get to analyze it, maybe with enough hits the people see that there are just very sophisticated but conform signals, hinting at something else than a "living organism" as a controller.

Replicate: The "Agent Smith"- routine, eh? As far as i know, AI's can't replicate themselves. They are a complex running program. If you disable them and then copy them somehow the copy will have no "spark of life" and will not function. It is unknown why that is. (Don't know where i read it... if someone has the patience to try and get that quote somehow?)

Mordinvan
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Jan 25 2010, 05:40 AM) *
First: They can't use simsense because they don't have any senses or part of the brain interpreting these signals (which explains their imunity to black attacks)

But could they code themselves one?

The Jopp
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Jan 25 2010, 01:40 PM) *
Replicate: The "Agent Smith"- routine, eh? As far as i know, AI's can't replicate themselves. They are a complex running program. If you disable them and then copy them somehow the copy will have no "spark of life" and will not function. It is unknown why that is. (Don't know where i read it... if someone has the patience to try and get that quote somehow?)


The funny thing is that an Agent which is an active program in its own right can run and replicate itself to another node. AI's are even described as "An AI counts as a Single program towards the process limit of the node in which it is residing. Here's the fun part then, it is not an OS that takes over a device, it BOOST an already existing device. Another description is that AI's may very well have been an agent to begin with. The Welcome to my mind section in Runner Companion is very useful there.

The funny thing is that they also say that "Artificial Intelligences are intricate dynamic programs and cannot be copied and have backups made" from "Realignment and Restoration".

But if an AI can use Replicate and use it just as an Agent could (it might very well have BEEN an agent malware) then perhaps they mean that OTHERS cannot copy it but the AI can make copies of itself. This of course have drawbacks.

Creating a copy of an Agent of programs means that if you analyze their icon or Access ID you get ALL their access ID'n since they have the same one.

By RAW it is allowed but at the same time contradicted.
Garou
i don't remember the A.I. Rules well, so forgive me if i am mistaken, but maybe it could replicate only it's code shell, a fake or still persona, to another nodes, deactivated. To an observed, it might look like a dumpshocked icon or someone "Away From Keyboard", Or Lagged and waiting a disconnection that will never occurs, but at any time, can be transfered to the "life code" of the A.I. Perhaps the two icons could be linked by a stream of data, (sort of like a datatrail), so it could be user as a "Spare body" In the matrix.

Just wondering. smile.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 25 2010, 04:19 AM) *
Replicate...Want to spread the love? Make a copy of yourself in EVERY drone you own


Uh. You can't duplicate AIs.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 25 2010, 07:51 PM) *
Uh. You can't duplicate AIs.


As I wrote above - according to RAW an AI can use REPLICATE Agent Autosoft to replicate itself to another node. The contradiction is that you cannot copy an AI program - but they say nothing about the AI copying itself.

Since an Agent can replicate itself and the AI can use the agent autosoft replicate to replicate itself into another node it seems that way.

There is a contradiction in the rules - that's all I'm saying.

The main point is that REPLICATE is not COPYING the AI. Still, a clarification is needed.
Delarn
AI can use drones, they can use autosoft and if the drone is wired to use skillsoft it can use it.
Snuggly Buffalo
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 25 2010, 01:18 PM) *
As I wrote above - according to RAW an AI can use REPLICATE Agent Autosoft to replicate itself to another node. The contradiction is that you cannot copy an AI program - but they say nothing about the AI copying itself.

Since an Agent can replicate itself and the AI can use the agent autosoft replicate to replicate itself into another node it seems that way.

There is a contradiction in the rules - that's all I'm saying.

The main point is that REPLICATE is not COPYING the AI. Still, a clarification is needed.


Actually, if you check page 110 of Unwired, it deals with AIs and the Replicate Autosoft: "note that sprites, AIs, and e-ghosts, as "living" digital entities, are incapable of copying themselves this way."
The Jopp
QUOTE (Snuggly Buffalo @ Jan 26 2010, 08:20 AM) *
Actually, if you check page 110 of Unwired, it deals with AIs and the Replicate Autosoft: "note that sprites, AIs, and e-ghosts, as "living" digital entities, are incapable of copying themselves this way."


Aaah, shadowrun RPG - where you need to check multiple books to be able to understand how ONE archetype works.

Yup, missed that one since I actually believed they had that covered in Runner Companion.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 25 2010, 01:19 AM) *
What does this mean:
Since sensor software is not allowed you cannot make a pure Software based AI since it would lack basic Etiquette skill and cannot use Empathy software.

Personally I would allow it IF you have the following (both):
A: Sensors
B: Quality: Piloting Origin

The latter allows you to be in a drone and the previous is usually installed in a drone so that you CAN perceive the world and know how learn and interpret bodylanguage (lets just call it Emoticon Knowledge for the AI).


It's important to remember that the matrix, as of 4th ed, uses a node interface of artificial environments designed to mirror the real world. Of course, ala Second Life, the actual laws of reality in said nodes are up the the admin, but it's still meant to be an approximation to reality. As such, icons, for most legitimate users at least, do have facial expressions, voice patterns, etc. Add to that the fact that they're completely capable of containing "sim rooms" wherein a user can hit up a virtual entertainment system capable of trideo and video display. As such, even a Matrix-native being should have the ability to perceive and understand the world outside the Matrix.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jan 27 2010, 09:31 AM) *
It's important to remember that the matrix, as of 4th ed, uses a node interface of artificial environments designed to mirror the real world. Of course, ala Second Life, the actual laws of reality in said nodes are up the the admin, but it's still meant to be an approximation to reality. As such, icons, for most legitimate users at least, do have facial expressions, voice patterns, etc. Add to that the fact that they're completely capable of containing "sim rooms" wherein a user can hit up a virtual entertainment system capable of trideo and video display. As such, even a Matrix-native being should have the ability to perceive and understand the world outside the Matrix.


Which makes it even more silly that they cannot use sensor software to make up for a lack of etiquette skills. Or for that matter Facial recognition software, lie detector software etc.
Saint Sithney
I houserule the hell out of AIs. The 2 pages in RC is insufficient for an archetype so fundamentally different from all others.
I mean, even a free spirit has easy access to the physical world via materialization.
The Jopp
The funny thing is that you can make an incredibly diverse AI with Autosofts and Programs with Pilot Origin - Cheaply.

250K cash
Drone body

Buy all skills as Autosofts or software since there are basically no skills that arent covered by a program/autosoft.

The only limit is Skill+Program which will be limited to Autosoft (4) and Program (6).

Add a few qualities to that, optimize a commlink and put it into a drone and you can Spoof with 13D6

If you play that AI's get Hotsim they have 15D6. Give them homeground autosoft and they have +5 Matrix Perception / +7 if they have hotsim bonus.
The Jopp
Another slight headache.

Pilot is equal to the OS of a drone

An AI counts as a running program within the OS - in this case within the pilot.

An AI with pilot origin can "jump into" the drone and run it as a rigger.

Do I even NEED a "pilot" program for a Drone or can I replace the pilot with a regular OS?

After all - Since the AI would be "living" with the drone it would be rigging it all the time and will not really need the pilot.

Dunno, I just find the actual pilot a bit redundant if you are a Pilot AI from start...If you have a pilot origin then YOU should be allowed to be the actual pilot program, and in that case the actual OS.
Rotbart van Dainig
Sure you can replace Pilot with System... or the other way round.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jan 27 2010, 01:26 PM) *
Sure you can replace Pilot with System... or the other way round.


The only wrng I can see with this is that buyng a rating 6 System/Firewall in a drone is cheaper than a Rating 4 pilot - on the other hand the OS cannot make decisions on its own, a pilot can.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Jan 25 2010, 06:22 AM) *
Well... no. As much as i would like it (I LOVE AI's), they don't get the hotsim. Hm, as a GM i would maybe give it to them, together with the ability to get more IP's. It is silly that both Hackers and Technomancers are much faster in the net. So i would let them install a bastardized version of a "simsense-booster" in their nexus/comlink and let them somehow emulate a simsense-connection. Maybe with a specialized program, incorporating the "biofeedback-filter".


I'm going to ask why do you feel it's wrong that the flesh and blood technomancers and hackers can be faster than AIs?

Aside from the balance issue of AIs not suffering the negative side effects of a hot sim, the meta-human brain likely is capable of far more computational capacity than the AI's node.

--

QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 25 2010, 07:15 AM) *
What does an AI "look" like to other matrix users?


Cortana.

--

QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 26 2010, 03:46 AM) *
Aaah, shadowrun RPG - where you need to check multiple books to be able to understand how ONE archetype works.

Yup, missed that one since I actually believed they had that covered in Runner Companion.


IIRC, RC was released after Unwired. Unwired already had mentioned all the rules for AIs. RC just gave an official means to allow players to make their own.
The Jopp
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jan 27 2010, 01:52 PM) *
Cortana.


Shodan...
The Jopp
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jan 27 2010, 01:52 PM) *
I'm going to ask why do you feel it's wrong that the flesh and blood technomancers and hackers can be faster than AIs?

Aside from the balance issue of AIs not suffering the negative side effects of a hot sim, the meta-human brain likely is capable of far more computational capacity than the AI's node.


Ok, balance wise it makes abit of sense Metahumans=Addictions AI's=No Hotsim

But at the same time - In order to get a hacker online they need simsense, which is a simsense signal, which in itself is a medium between hacker - matrix.

An AI or Agent have Agent-Matrix while hacker has Hacker-Simsense-Matrix.

By that description agents and AI should have a faster "connection" to the matrix.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 27 2010, 08:05 AM) *
Shodan...

Max Headroom?
Delarn
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 27 2010, 12:17 PM) *
Another slight headache.

Pilot is equal to the OS of a drone

An AI counts as a running program within the OS - in this case within the pilot.

An AI with pilot origin can "jump into" the drone and run it as a rigger.

Do I even NEED a "pilot" program for a Drone or can I replace the pilot with a regular OS?

After all - Since the AI would be "living" with the drone it would be rigging it all the time and will not really need the pilot.

Dunno, I just find the actual pilot a bit redundant if you are a Pilot AI from start...If you have a pilot origin then YOU should be allowed to be the actual pilot program, and in that case the actual OS.


AI while jumped in can use the Pilot instead of AGILITY or it's own piloting skill ! Wich ever is better.
Body and Strength are = to the Body of the Drone and the Reaction = Pilot or Piloting skill ... Just like the Cyborg. Because the Cyborg is truly and E-Ghost that is in a Jarhead. So an AI can also use the same rules to justify it's Otomo body.
Delarn
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 27 2010, 01:13 PM) *
Ok, balance wise it makes abit of sense Metahumans=Addictions AI's=No Hotsim

But at the same time - In order to get a hacker online they need simsense, which is a simsense signal, which in itself is a medium between hacker - matrix.

An AI or Agent have Agent-Matrix while hacker has Hacker-Simsense-Matrix.

By that description agents and AI should have a faster "connection" to the matrix.


If the nexus/commlink/drone they use is equiped with the hotsim system and the AI uses it, it should let them have the advantage. AI feel the matrix, they don't just live there.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jan 27 2010, 05:52 AM) *
I'm going to ask why do you feel it's wrong that the flesh and blood technomancers and hackers can be faster than AIs?

Aside from the balance issue of AIs not suffering the negative side effects of a hot sim, the meta-human brain likely is capable of far more computational capacity than the AI's node.


I don't think so, a human brain is limited to about 7 objects in working memory, an AI might be limited to however much RAM they happen to have, which 60 years from now, could well be 'LOTS'. The fastest part of the human mind processes information at a speed of ~10m/s, across neurons much, much larger then whatever 'transistors' are going to be available in 2070. The human mind's memory is also very poor remembering only key detail's and making the rest up as it goes along, where as an AI would most likely have near perfect recall depending on its storage and cataloging capacity. The human brain is limited to 'in general' the confines of your own skull, and what ever processing power comes with. An A.I., at least one with decent connections can get time on a university, research, or military grade super computer to crunch some numbers with. Since they don't need to sleep, and may not in fact understand the concept of fatigue they could use multiple initiative passes each round of each minute, of each hour, of each day, over the course of a week to get a particular task done, which could mean they get at least 9 times as much work done as a conventional human, and not break a proverbial sweat.
Kyre
I have a few questions about AI's myself, so I hope this isn't too far off topic. (Sorry if they're kind of noobish, I've only played SR for few months and I'm curious about AI characters.)

1. AIs can come with inherent programs that have the Ergonomic and Optimize (I assume they mean Optimization) options. What ranking of Optimization is this?
2. The AI rules seem to imply that they can acquire inherent programs after character generation, i.e. "E-ghosts follow the same rules as AI's, except that they do not receive any free inherent programs at character generation" (RC 91). Can AIs acquire them later, like by programming them into itself as per the programming rules?
3. Do AI inherent programs degrade over time?
4. Are AIs counted as hot-simming / cold-simming? What about E-Ghosts?
5. Are AIs affected by Black IC programs / options? What about E-Ghosts?

And a last comment - "Additionally, AIs may improve an inherent program rating by 1 for a Karma cost equal to the new rating; the upper limit of the rating of an inherent program is equal to twice the AI’s System rating." (RC 90) Wow! For only 12 Karma an AI could purchase a rank 12 program, which should be very usable on its home node and / or depending on how well optimized inherent programs can be.

Thanks in advance!
JoelHalpern
Kyre, responding with my understanding tosome of the questions:
1) I have always assumed that they are so optimized that they will run at full value wherever the AI is. I might be tempted to limit thus to system*2, based on the definition of the optimize option.

2) As far as I can tell there is no way for a PC AI to acquire inherent programs after start. Maybe, if he has fewer programs than his rating, he could buy them, starting with 2 karma for rating 1, and then rating karm for each increase?

3) No, they do not degrade. THere is a specific note under AIs that if they spawn and sell stuff, that degrades.

Additional quesiton: I read this as requiring progressive improvement, just like TM complex forms. So to get from rating 7 (which an AI can just barely start with for some programs) to rating 12 would take 50 karma. Still quite cheap.

Yours,
Joel Halpern
BlackHat
QUOTE (JoelHalpern @ Jan 29 2010, 05:29 PM) *
Additional quesiton: I read this as requiring progressive improvement, just like TM complex forms. So to get from rating 7 (which an AI can just barely start with for some programs) to rating 12 would take 50 karma. Still quite cheap.


Just to clarify, what he is saying is that first you have to go from 7 to 8 (8 karma) then from 8 to 9 (9 more karma) then 9 to 10 (up to 27 karma total) and so on, adding 23 more karma to that before you get up to 12.

I still agree, that this is very nice. Few hackers would pass up paying 50 karma to have a stealth program at rating 12.
Kyre
Alright, paying up for each inherent skill is still a damn good deal. Having a military-grade hacking program for the cost of only 7 karma after chargen is far too good to pass up.

QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 27 2010, 12:46 PM) *
The funny thing is that you can make an incredibly diverse AI with Autosofts and Programs with Pilot Origin - Cheaply.

250K cash
Drone body

Buy all skills as Autosofts or software since there are basically no skills that arent covered by a program/autosoft.

The only limit is Skill+Program which will be limited to Autosoft (4) and Program (6).

Add a few qualities to that, optimize a commlink and put it into a drone and you can Spoof with 13D6

If you play that AI's get Hotsim they have 15D6. Give them homeground autosoft and they have +5 Matrix Perception / +7 if they have hotsim bonus.


I'm not quite sure how this would work, exactly. I'm guessing you're using the 10BP version of Piloting Origin, and then running the [Profession] Autosoft directly. The only problem is that it limits you to Technical or Knowledge skills, and about half of the Technical Skills are hacking skills you'd likely get anyways. I don't really see the point of doing tricks like this instead of just learning the skills normally. And besides, if you have a "Piloting Origin", good luck convincing your GM to let you take good inherent hacking programs: "...inherent programs must be appropriate to the AI’s origin, and are subject to approval by the gamemaster." - You'd probably be stuck with Encrypt / Decrypt, Edit, Reality Filter, Scan, etc.

How should an AI work with a party? Would they be always holed up at their home nexus, and only hack out from there? Or rather, should it come along with the party and have its home be in someone's comlink / in a comlink in a drone?
BlackHat
I've played two AI characters. One was a drone-AI which, obviously, made its home node in a drone that tagged along with the party. THe other was a hacker, and so tagging along in a commlink is really more dangerous than its worth. Unless the run takes place in a dead-zone or on the other side of wifi-negating materials, it doesn't make any sense for an AI to leave home - particularly since the only way it can be truely destroyed is if its home node is destroyed. Having that home node be some street-sams commlink is safe... until that street sam gets blown up. Having that home node be a nexi halfway across the world is probably a lot safer - particularly if your AI doesn't mind halving its response by bouncing off a satellite (and becoming relatively untraceable).

The rules allow for the AI to leave its home node, to go into other nodes, as necessary, but it always seems safer to stay on your home node, and just open connections to other nodes the way hackers typically do. At least that way, if the power cuts out you don't instantly die, you just get dumped back into your home node.
BlackHat
QUOTE (Kyre @ Jan 29 2010, 10:10 PM) *
I'm not quite sure how this would work, exactly. I'm guessing you're using the 10BP version of Piloting Origin, and then running the [Profession] Autosoft directly. The only problem is that it limits you to Technical or Knowledge skills, and about half of the Technical Skills are hacking skills you'd likely get anyways.


There are autosofts that cover other skills. Clearsight = Perception. Maneuvering = Running, etc. Arsenal also suggests that there are autosofts covering other combat skills - citing the example that a drone with a mechanical arm would use a "Blades" autosoft when wielding a sword, or those with legs can use "Unarmed Combat" to kick. Your mileage may vary on those ones, though.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Kyre @ Jan 30 2010, 04:10 AM) *
And besides, if you have a "Piloting Origin", good luck convincing your GM to let you take good inherent hacking programs: "...inherent programs must be appropriate to the AIís origin, and are subject to approval by the gamemaster." - You'd probably be stuck with Encrypt / Decrypt, Edit, Reality Filter, Scan, etc.

How should an AI work with a party? Would they be always holed up at their home nexus, and only hack out from there? Or rather, should it come along with the party and have its home be in someone's comlink / in a comlink in a drone?


The background is that the drone was rigged at the time of the AI's birth by a rigger, who died. The Pilot and the Rigger fused in a lack of better term and a flash-burn "copy" of the riggers mind burned itself into the drone and the Rigger had all his programs stashed as a backup within the drone. Over time the drone learned how to utilize the tech skill autosofts that was normally used by other drones.

There is also the stupid thing that Pilot Origin drones just like regular AI's can only choose hacking/common programs as their codebase - they should have the ability to choose fitting autosofts as well.

The AI in this case would have been an infiltrating EW/Hacking drone in the guise of the Entertainment System Raven (Another model of the ES Falcon). Fly in, hack system and activate it's ECM system to block signals.

Basically the AI would have a mobile Nexus, his body, the drone. Remeber, the AI dont NEED a comlink, might as well be a drone. Or, add "Special equipment" as a modification to your drone, a "Commlink Carrier" add-on and put in an extra commlink within the drone and run the drone remotely.

This would be a drone/character that costs around 250-300K
Delarn
QUOTE (Kyre @ Jan 29 2010, 09:55 PM) *
I have a few questions about AI's myself, so I hope this isn't too far off topic. (Sorry if they're kind of noobish, I've only played SR for few months and I'm curious about AI characters.)

1. AIs can come with inherent programs that have the Ergonomic and Optimize (I assume they mean Optimization) options. What ranking of Optimization is this?
2. The AI rules seem to imply that they can acquire inherent programs after character generation, i.e. "E-ghosts follow the same rules as AI's, except that they do not receive any free inherent programs at character generation" (RC 91). Can AIs acquire them later, like by programming them into itself as per the programming rules?
3. Do AI inherent programs degrade over time?
4. Are AIs counted as hot-simming / cold-simming? What about E-Ghosts?
5. Are AIs affected by Black IC programs / options? What about E-Ghosts?

And a last comment - "Additionally, AIs may improve an inherent program rating by 1 for a Karma cost equal to the new rating; the upper limit of the rating of an inherent program is equal to twice the AIís System rating." (RC 90) Wow! For only 12 Karma an AI could purchase a rank 12 program, which should be very usable on its home node and / or depending on how well optimized inherent programs can be.

Thanks in advance!


1. Optimize 3
2. I would allow them to aquire a program if their rating rise. (IE upgrading it to 6 most of you attribute would merge one of your bought programs to inherent).
3. Yes it does if you get away from your home node too long. Lose 1 rating and you lose 1 inherent program and you'll nerver regain it unless you read #2.
4. Debate here, I would say yes.
5. They are counted always in and don't suffer dumpshock, so I think they only get normal dmg from it (wich mean they can litterally die from it like any other attack.)

For the last, ie My inherent program is level 5 I want to upgrade it to level 6 it would cost me 6 karma. And so on.

I would modify inherent program to be like complexform. You can aquire a max depending on your rating, but only after character generation. Else you got the "Rating" inherent program you are allowed to use.
Falconer
1. Optomize 3 and ergonomic
2. AI's can start w/ no programs if they take the e-ghost disadvantage... in which case they must buy them up using karma like normal. (buy 1 rank, 2 rank 3rank... as opposed to improving an existing program).
3. Yes you can lose them, book details this more... If you gain rating you can learn more, if you lose rating you lose one program permanently and would need to relearn it back up using karma when your rating increased again.
4. Debate here... I say yes. No good reason not to give +2 dice from game mechanics perspective.
5. No debate here. They're programs Black attacks have no effect on them... though normal attacks can damage them just like any other program. (this is equivalent to a normal hacker getting hit w/ blackice to an AI).


Explanation: An AI is an electronic entity I find it silly they don't benefit from the same +2 dicepool bonus every tom, dick, and harry hacker w/ 3 IP passes get. The drawback is the hacker puts himself at mortal risk of physical damage... well normal attack programs do the equivalent of physical damage to the AI when they'd be a nuisance to a hacker. So the AI is clearly just in as much danger as a hotsim hacker and should get the bonus.

Only other thing I might add, is either limiting cyber to 4 passes, or giving AI's some way to get the 4th and 5th pass.
JoelHalpern
A couple of folks have limited the optimize to 3. Why? I looked, and the book does not define it with that limitaiton.
Once the AI starts raising teh rating of its inherent programs, the fact that the optimize can be larger seems important. Yes, the effective optimize can never exceed the rating of the node on which it is beign used. But if Karma has been spent, that means the AI can use up to system*2 rating of its inherent program.

Yours,
Joel

PS: I do not see anything which suggests that AIs inherent programs degrade when the AI is away from home. I may well have missed it. Can you point me at that? Thanks.
Kyre
The main reason I'm asking if E-ghosts are affected by Black IC is that it seems understandable, fluff-wise: they're still a human consciousness and can conceivably still have a way of thinking like a human. What should it matter to a Black IC program if the target's neural connections are in meatspace or in matrixspace?

Also, could an AI take advantage of a Simsense Accelerator if it was in a device that had it? Simsense accelerators work on hotsim characters, and everyone seems to agree that AI's count as being hotsimmed.
Falconer
Hotsim +2 dice bonus and hotsim are two different things in my mind.

Given all the drawbacks of AI's (they're basically agents on steroids) I see no reason not to give them the +2 bonus because they already have the drawbacks. (IE: taking the equivalent of lethal damage in cyber combat). Not because they're using 'simsense'.

Simsense is how we visualize and take the raw data of the electronic world and visualize it... but to the AI it doesn't need it, simsense and real world cameras are alien to the AI... it's native world and vision is the electronic one.

Also, I have no issues w/ the AI tricking out it's home node w/ a simsense accelerator for +1 IP. Just I don't think it's using 'simsense'. Just from a game balance perspective I see zero issues with it. It's the only way I can see to get the 4th pass (since the cyberware simsense booster in augmentation is definitely out). I don't see any good way to get a 5th pass...
Mikado
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Jan 29 2010, 04:30 PM) *
Since they don't need to sleep, and may not in fact understand the concept of fatigue they could use multiple initiative passes each round of each minute, of each hour, of each day, over the course of a week to get a particular task done, which could mean they get at least 9 times as much work done as a conventional human, and not break a proverbial sweat.

They may need sleep in the sense that they need "down-time" to review and defragment the days events and compile new response patterns on said events into their code. AI fatigue "could" be fragmented data paths or inability to restructure code for optimal performance during a given event. Ofcourse thats all hypthetical and probably wrong but whatever...
MadDogMike
QUOTE (Mikado @ Jan 30 2010, 02:43 PM) *
They may need sleep in the sense that they need "down-time" to review and defragment the days events and compile new response patterns on said events into their code. AI fatigue "could" be fragmented data paths or inability to restructure code for optimal performance during a given event. Ofcourse thats all hypthetical and probably wrong but whatever...


Pretty sure in Runner's Companion it says they don't normally sleep per se, but they do "realign" when their condition track gets filled (which is more or less like being in a coma in their home node for a while).

As for the running "should they get benefits like regular hackers/technomancers for hot sim?" debate, I'll throw in another balancing factor and note Matrix combat damage doesn't just "act like lethal", if they get enough Overflow they can PERMANENTLY lose Mental traits. I can hardly call it unbalanced to give them the same basic benefits of a human user when no human is going to risk paying bucketloads of karma out from a bad regular Matrix combat. Besides, I have no issue with AIs being awesome at the Matrix even over a standard human, for 110 BP starting they should be damn spectacular. Minus the usual hot sim benefits the only thing AIs would have in the Matrix is +3 Perception and inherant programs (which are NICE, but they have a limit of 6 and that's with maxed Mental attributes, and they usually start below 6 unlike every hacker who can just throw nuyen.gif 6,000 at important programs during creation and call it a day), which would seem weak as hell compared to a human's extra possible IP and +2 dice to ALL Matrix tests, even before you add in AI specific disadvantages. Let 'em be awesome in the Matrix, it's about all they have going for them.
darthmord
Don't forget a potential house rule of allowing cyber/bioware as an emulated program. Just make sure that you use an "Essence" rating equal to the AI's rating so as to provide a limit as to just how much emulated 'ware they can run.
Kurious
If an AI goes into a node of an AR club; could it make an AR avatar and walk around said club?
Kurious
... So, the question above is no good?
JoelHalpern
Since AR features are matrix constructs, an AI can appear as an icon (apparent person) in an AR club. Or a VR club. The AI would be in VR in any case, and if the AR folks look for any real-world correspondence (which is normally the point, I would think) they won't find the correspondence.
The quesiton is the same as asking if a hacker or technomancer remotely in VR can visit an AR club. They can certainly interact with the AR of the club, but they are not physically there.

Yours,
Joel
The Jopp
QUOTE (darthmord @ Feb 3 2010, 10:06 PM) *
Don't forget a potential house rule of allowing cyber/bioware as an emulated program. Just make sure that you use an "Essence" rating equal to the AI's rating so as to provide a limit as to just how much emulated 'ware they can run.


Is this in one of the books or homecooked?
darthmord
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Feb 4 2010, 02:54 AM) *
Is this in one of the books or homecooked?


Home Cooked.

I came up with the idea a while back. It's in my post history somewhere. What made me do it was that AIs are rather limited in just how much they can grow by RAW, especially in comparison to any other sort of meatbody (metavariant or metahuman).

The basic premise is that you use the AI's rating as a limit as to how much 'ware it can emulate as a program (think AI Rating = Essence). Thus you could end up with an AI that has Wired Reflexes 3 or a bunch of brainware. Makes it ungodly fast in the Matrix for example. I'd allow just about any cyber or bioware to be emulated by the AI. Of course, it'd have to buy or otherwise acquire the software to run. Costs would be up to the GM. I'd keep the 'Essence' cost the same between the real world hardware and the emulated software.

I even allowed for applying cyber/bioware grades to the emulated program. Better written code works better with less overhead after all. cyber.gif

Several people liked the idea when I originally posted it. I also gave a couple of tweak suggestions on how to fudge things a bit to make it work for different needs.

Should be able to find it if you search my user name and the words "emulated" & "AI".
TheWanderingJewels
Look Like House Rules for AI's on this end then. Those restrictions are bloody silly
Kurious
QUOTE (JoelHalpern @ Feb 4 2010, 04:04 AM) *
an AI can appear as an icon (apparent person) in an AR club.


Good deal, thank you.
The Jopp
E-Ghosts

These guys are actually completely fucked without houserules for AI's in general since an E-Ghost lacks any kind of codebase and you cannot actually DO anything in the matrix without software.

I will probably houserule that all AI's automatically have the Emulate ability from unwired.

We also have the problem that AI's can actually start the game with no skills at all (rather unusual).

This means that an AI with Logic 5 and defaulting - and emulating a rating 4 program would have 6D6 with all factors included, which means they can do SOMETHING.

for 110 BP they should never be helpless in the matrix...that would be like a fish that cannot swim and cannot breathe underwater.
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