IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

5 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
Karoline
post Feb 8 2010, 01:54 PM
Post #26


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,679
Joined: 19-September 09
Member No.: 17,652



QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Feb 8 2010, 08:44 AM) *
Actually, they don't. They exclude some thing, and that's the whole point of them - the SA spec won't work with tasers.
More important, they make it much easier when to apply them and don't just rely on the half-knowledge of the GM and the whining of the player.


Yes, they exclude some things, but a given character is almost always going to be using her weapon type of choice. Yes, the SA spec doesn't cover tasers, but someone with the SA spec isn't going to use tasers most of the time, they'll be using SAs.

QUOTE
Even "when using the MA edges or maneuvers" doesn't help, as they are broad.


Seems fairly clear to me. Any situation where you get a bonus from the MA quality (like improved damage, improved blocking, damage while disarming or whatever) and any situation which uses a MA maneuver you have would fall under the area of a MA spec. If it doesn't fall under one of these conditions you can't use your MA spec. Seems fairly cut and dry to me.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rotbart van Dain...
post Feb 8 2010, 02:34 PM
Post #27


Hoppelhäschen 5000
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,807
Joined: 3-January 04
Member No.: 5,951



QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 8 2010, 03:54 PM) *
Yes, they exclude some things, but a given character is almost always going to be using her weapon type of choice.

They try to, which is just logical. That doesn't mean that the spec is unrestricted.
QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 8 2010, 03:54 PM) *
Any situation where you get a bonus from the MA quality (like improved damage, improved blocking, damage while disarming or whatever) and any situation which uses a MA maneuver you have would fall under the area of a MA spec.

The thing is, that means you basically can upgrade a spec until it applies 100% of the time, excluding nothing at all.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Surukai
post Feb 8 2010, 02:53 PM
Post #28


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 212
Joined: 17-January 10
From: Sweden
Member No.: 18,046



QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Feb 8 2010, 03:34 PM) *
The thing is, that means you basically can upgrade a spec until it applies 100% of the time, excluding nothing at all.


Except the 95% of the time when you are out of melee range, eating full bursts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I see your point though but I don't see it as much of a problem. "Combat Wounds" for first aid always applies (ok, it is theoretically possible that a character falls down a ladder and hurts himself...)

A Combat spec magician still need to cast improve reflexes (health) and Levitate (manipulation) at times, non-hermetic mages also see a point summoning more than one type of spirit and that makes their specialization something that gives them a subset of their ability they excel in that we don't see in a melee fighter specializing in Martial Arts or a guy with a shotgun specalizing Longarms in shotguns because he'll only run around with said shotgun and is very unlikely to use any other weapon in the longarms skill.

It had been nice if every specialization could be like those in magic or perception (one of 5 senses) but I don't think Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts) is particularly bad when it comes to being in effect all the time compared to most other skills.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rotbart van Dain...
post Feb 8 2010, 03:34 PM
Post #29


Hoppelhäschen 5000
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,807
Joined: 3-January 04
Member No.: 5,951



QUOTE (Surukai @ Feb 8 2010, 04:53 PM) *
Except the 95% of the time when you are out of melee range, eating full bursts

Wrong tree.
QUOTE (Surukai @ Feb 8 2010, 04:53 PM) *
"Combat Wounds" for first aid always applies

Nope - other specs like poison, etc. happen to be need quite often.
QUOTE (Surukai @ Feb 8 2010, 04:53 PM) *
It had been nice if every specialization could be like those in magic or perception (one of 5 senses) but I don't think Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts) is particularly bad when it comes to being in effect all the time compared to most other skills.

In my games, it applies at official tournaments only.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Critias
post Feb 8 2010, 04:42 PM
Post #30


Freelance Elf
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 7,324
Joined: 30-September 04
From: Texas
Member No.: 6,714



QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Feb 8 2010, 10:34 AM) *
In my games, it applies at official tournaments only.

Wow. That's...uhh...is that real often? How many adventures involve a SWEEP THE LEG moment, anyways?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Surukai
post Feb 8 2010, 05:26 PM
Post #31


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 212
Joined: 17-January 10
From: Sweden
Member No.: 18,046



QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Feb 8 2010, 04:34 PM) *
Nope - other specs like poison, etc. happen to be need quite often.


I have not seen it that often, most poisons have such ridiculous power that any attempts to resist it (even with aid from spells) is rather futile. 2 darts Narcojet and you're down. Unless of course you can simply roll first aid to heal boxes but I don't really see how you can heal already inflicted damage from poison with a simple first aid test. You don't exactly bandage away drowsyness...

Effects that give extra dice on poison resistance tests (or disease resist) have had no noticeable effect other than cripple the poor mage with 8-12 drain.

I realize I'm partly OOT here, my point being that most other combat skills have specializations that will be in effect for nearly 100% of the time so why bother adding special rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neraph
post Feb 8 2010, 05:28 PM
Post #32


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,542
Joined: 30-September 08
From: D/FW Megaplex
Member No.: 16,387



QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 6 2010, 06:18 PM) *
There is no 'martial arts' skill, so you would use the blade skill. Martial arts specialization to blades skill would likely apply (But is a bit of a gimme spec as you've no reason to not fight using your martial art style)

Again, this talk is about the Martial Arts positive quality in Arsenal.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tanegar
post Feb 8 2010, 05:46 PM
Post #33


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,654
Joined: 29-October 06
Member No.: 9,731



QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Feb 8 2010, 08:31 AM) *
If someone tried capoeira in a fight, I'd smack them with a Called Shot modifier for trying to attack in such a specific and impractical way. I'm fine with styles applying quite often, but only if players choose styles that actual works for fighting.

I prefer my rules a little more RAW than that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Karoline
post Feb 8 2010, 07:19 PM
Post #34


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,679
Joined: 19-September 09
Member No.: 17,652



QUOTE (LowKey @ Feb 5 2010, 05:05 PM) *
Hey folks,

Just got a quick question that needs a confirmation, checked through books but couldn't see anything solid.

I've got a character with a martial art (Arnis De Mano) and blades skill, and I'm confused which skill rating would be used in an attack. Do I:

A) Use the martial art skill
B) Use the blade skill
C) Use the lowest value rated?

I'm looking for a rulebook quotation for it to confirm it, as unless I get one the ruling will probably be for the lowest value and I'd rather not do myself out of dice to roll (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


QUOTE
Again, this talk is about the Martial Arts positive quality in Arsenal.


Really? Because I was under the impression that this was a question about how the martial arts skill (Which doesn't exist) interacts with the martial arts quality and an appropriate weapon skill. Barring the existence of a martial arts skill, it can be assumed that the OP was talking about a martial arts specialization.

Because if you don't make that assumption, then the question was answered by me a while ago "There is no martial arts skill, so you use blade skill with the possibility of applying a martial arts spec"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neraph
post Feb 8 2010, 08:16 PM
Post #35


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,542
Joined: 30-September 08
From: D/FW Megaplex
Member No.: 16,387



QUOTE (LowKey @ Feb 5 2010, 04:05 PM) *
I've got a character with a martial art (Arnis De Mano) and blades skill, and I'm confused which skill rating would be used in an attack. Do I:

It looks to me he was confused, trying to make the rating of the Positive Quality a skill, which it isn't. But he is definately talking about the Positive Quality and a weapon skill here.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Smokeskin
post Feb 8 2010, 10:47 PM
Post #36


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 881
Joined: 31-July 06
From: Denmark
Member No.: 8,995



QUOTE (Tanegar @ Feb 8 2010, 06:46 PM) *
QUOTE (Smokeskin)

If someone tried capoeira in a fight, I'd smack them with a Called Shot modifier for trying to attack in such a specific and impractical way. I'm fine with styles applying quite often, but only if players choose styles that actual works for fighting.


I prefer my rules a little more RAW than that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


What do you mean? Capoeira isn't meant for actual fighting. If someone insists on using a specialization outside of where it applies, they should be hit with a large penalty. I guess it would only be used for showing off, kicking someone around in a strange way, like fighting with a hand behind your back or only using your thumbs.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neraph
post Feb 9 2010, 12:01 AM
Post #37


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,542
Joined: 30-September 08
From: D/FW Megaplex
Member No.: 16,387



Capoeira was in fact meant for real fighting. It was designed to allow the slaves who made it fight while being able to convince the guards that they were just doing ritual dances. Whether or not it continues to be effective is another matter.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Feb 9 2010, 03:17 AM
Post #38


Prime Runner Ascendant
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 17,568
Joined: 26-March 09
From: Aurora, Colorado
Member No.: 17,022



QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Feb 8 2010, 03:47 PM) *
I prefer my rules a little more RAW than that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


What do you mean? Capoeira isn't meant for actual fighting. If someone insists on using a specialization outside of where it applies, they should be hit with a large penalty. I guess it would only be used for showing off, kicking someone around in a strange way, like fighting with a hand behind your back or only using your thumbs.



And where are you getting your information from, because you seem to be singularly misinformed? Capoeira is indeed a fighting art...

Keep the Faith
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Karoline
post Feb 9 2010, 03:24 AM
Post #39


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,679
Joined: 19-September 09
Member No.: 17,652



QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 8 2010, 10:17 PM) *
And where are you getting your information from, because you seem to be singularly misinformed? Capoeira is indeed a fighting art...

Keep the Faith


Agreed. Capoeria is a fighting art. It doesn't -look- like it, but it is. Which is the entire point as Nerpah pointed out.

Fact is that it can actually be very effective. Not because it is 'powerful' like the more traditional martial arts are, but because its moves are hard to predict and dodge/block. Is that a duck of my punch or a prep for a leg sweep? Is that really a leg sweep or are they going to change last minute to make it a kick to my face?

Edit: It's kind of like drunken boxing (The martial arts style, not the bar fighting style ;P ) come to think of it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Critias
post Feb 9 2010, 03:27 AM
Post #40


Freelance Elf
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 7,324
Joined: 30-September 04
From: Texas
Member No.: 6,714



Capoeira isn't as brutally efficient and direct a martial art as we may have come to expect in modern times, but it really is still a martial art, and no more innately silly and ineffective than any other. Your average Capoeirista is also likely to be scarily fit and agile compared to many other martial artists, in fact, with tremendous cardio training, balance, and unpredictable movements.

They don't often do well when they compete in mixed martial arts-style tournaments (yes, we've all seen the very funny clip from Never Back Down, where a well-choreographed Superman punch stops the artsy-fartsy Capoeirista)...but that doesn't mean one of them couldn't surprise the hell out of your average thug and really wreck his day. And, fueled by proper dedication (not to mention Adept powers or cybernetically enhanced attributes) it could certainly be a pretty nasty fighting style.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Udoshi
post Feb 9 2010, 03:32 AM
Post #41


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,782
Joined: 28-August 09
Member No.: 17,566



Something I've been wondering about. If you have the right specialization for the wrong skill, does it apply for the test?

For example. Electronic Warfare's description says you can take the Sensor Operations specialty. But that's a Perception test. If i have that spec, can I use it for that test, even though its a completely wrong skill?

What about unarmed combat(Firefight +2). Can I claim the bonus when being a steriotypical hollywood action man with two guns, or would it only work if i'm using the gun in some sort of flashy pistol whip maneuver? Or is that the Clubs skill? The arsenal martial arts section of arsenal mentions that you can take(and with the GM's approval) martial arts specializations for melee weapons, if they fit.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Karoline
post Feb 9 2010, 03:37 AM
Post #42


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,679
Joined: 19-September 09
Member No.: 17,652



QUOTE (Udoshi @ Feb 8 2010, 10:32 PM) *
Something I've been wondering about. If you have the right specialization for the wrong skill, does it apply for the test?

For example. Electronic Warfare's description says you can take the Sensor Operations specialty. But that's a Perception test. If i have that spec, can I use it for that test, even though its a completely wrong skill?

What about unarmed combat(Firefight +2). Can I claim the bonus when being a steriotypical hollywood action man with two guns, or would it only work if i'm using the gun in some sort of flashy pistol whip maneuver? Or is that the Clubs skill? The arsenal martial arts section of arsenal mentions that you can take(and with the GM's approval) martial arts specializations for melee weapons, if they fit.


Good question actually. For the first one I don't know but I'd say likely.

For the second one I'd say no. It wouldn't even work for the pistol whip because that isn't unarmed. In that case it would just be 'you don't take an unarmed specialty in firefight, you take a pistol specialty in firefight'
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Critias
post Feb 9 2010, 03:57 AM
Post #43


Freelance Elf
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 7,324
Joined: 30-September 04
From: Texas
Member No.: 6,714



An awful lot of that sort of stuff comes down to a situation by situation, and GM by GM, basis. The hard and fast rule would probably be "no" almost every time, officially -- because it's safer for most game developers to, when in doubt, say "no" to extra dice.

But the Rule of Cool and the Rule of Shut Up And Let Them Have Fun come into play around a traditional tabletop, and I'd say your average friendly GM (maybe not at a con or something, but a buddy just slinging some dice with you) would probably say "yes" more often than not, if it's justified. At the very least, I'd probably toss a single die (splitting the difference between the yes and the no answers) to someone for out-of-the-box thinking.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
grendel504
post Feb 9 2010, 05:07 AM
Post #44


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 19
Joined: 23-November 09
From: New Orleans
Member No.: 17,897



Capoeira in action, the fightin' starts at 2:24.

I'm aware that this is not the rule, but I like to imagine that the Brazilian has a pink mohawk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0KfQE2-ZqA
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Smokeskin
post Feb 9 2010, 11:05 AM
Post #45


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 881
Joined: 31-July 06
From: Denmark
Member No.: 8,995



QUOTE (Critias @ Feb 9 2010, 04:27 AM) *
Capoeira isn't as brutally efficient and direct a martial art as we may have come to expect in modern times, but it really is still a martial art, and no more innately silly and ineffective than any other. Your average Capoeirista is also likely to be scarily fit and agile compared to many other martial artists, in fact, with tremendous cardio training, balance, and unpredictable movements.

They don't often do well when they compete in mixed martial arts-style tournaments (yes, we've all seen the very funny clip from Never Back Down, where a well-choreographed Superman punch stops the artsy-fartsy Capoeirista)...but that doesn't mean one of them couldn't surprise the hell out of your average thug and really wreck his day. And, fueled by proper dedication (not to mention Adept powers or cybernetically enhanced attributes) it could certainly be a pretty nasty fighting style.


Exactly, it isn't brutally efficient or direct like other martial arts that do well in MMA-style tournaments. If you're going to use capoeira in an actual fight, you'll take penalties. If you're very good and fit, you'll easily kick the crap out of an average thug anyway. If you're fighting someone on your level, those penalties will probably make the difference and you'll lose, like it happens in MMA tournaments.

It seems to me that imposing penalties on someone using capoeira to fight with quite accurately replicates real world outcomes, so it totally sounds like the right route to go.

On the other hand, not imposing modifiers would mean that a cage fight with equally skilled opponents, one with Capoeira specialization and one with Muai Thai, they'd have the same chance of winning, which is obviously unrealistic.

So, penalties for using capoeira in a fight it is.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Karoline
post Feb 9 2010, 01:16 PM
Post #46


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,679
Joined: 19-September 09
Member No.: 17,652



QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Feb 9 2010, 06:05 AM) *
Exactly, it isn't brutally efficient or direct like other martial arts that do well in MMA-style tournaments. If you're going to use capoeira in an actual fight, you'll take penalties. If you're very good and fit, you'll easily kick the crap out of an average thug anyway. If you're fighting someone on your level, those penalties will probably make the difference and you'll lose, like it happens in MMA tournaments.

It seems to me that imposing penalties on someone using capoeira to fight with quite accurately replicates real world outcomes, so it totally sounds like the right route to go.

On the other hand, not imposing modifiers would mean that a cage fight with equally skilled opponents, one with Capoeira specialization and one with Muai Thai, they'd have the same chance of winning, which is obviously unrealistic.

So, penalties for using capoeira in a fight it is.


Well, first off that makes the quality useless for getting Capoeira style. Second off you seem to forget that this is a game, and realism isn't generally a factor. Third, there is already an advantage to picking another style over Capoeira, and that is quite simply that the others get better bonuses as far as the rules are concerned.

Also keep in mind that there are other fighting styles in there that are going to be less effective in a MMA tournament. No boxer is going to stand a chance in a MMA tournament if only because they aren't used to being kicked at and stuff like that. Should he get a penalty as well?

You definitely seem to have some deep seeded misunderstanding of Capoeira that makes you think it is dancing that just happens to be applicable to fighting, instead of fighting that just happens to look like dancing.

Edit: Should also note that the kick that the one guy delivered in the video would have hurt far more than any punch that a boxer could ever hope to deliver, and yet boxing is the one with bonuses do DV. Capoeira is already weakened because it gets lackluster bonuses, no reason to add extra penalties.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rotbart van Dain...
post Feb 9 2010, 02:02 PM
Post #47


Hoppelhäschen 5000
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,807
Joined: 3-January 04
Member No.: 5,951



QUOTE (Critias @ Feb 8 2010, 06:42 PM) *
Wow. That's...uhh...is that real often?

No - just like the Theatrical or Trideo specs of Disguise won't be.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Smokeskin
post Feb 9 2010, 02:41 PM
Post #48


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 881
Joined: 31-July 06
From: Denmark
Member No.: 8,995



QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 9 2010, 02:16 PM) *
Well, first off that makes the quality useless for getting Capoeira style. Second off you seem to forget that this is a game, and realism isn't generally a factor. Third, there is already an advantage to picking another style over Capoeira, and that is quite simply that the others get better bonuses as far as the rules are concerned.


I wouldn't ignore the bonuses from Capoeira Qualities, I said if someone wanted to use the specialization Unarmed Combat(Capoeira +2) and wanted the bonus die in real fight, I'd hit them with a penalty.

Someone fighting with straight Unarmed Combat and Capoeira Qualities, that's a person fighting properly and getting bonuses from having more options.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Medicineman
post Feb 9 2010, 02:42 PM
Post #49


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,748
Joined: 25-January 05
From: Good ol' Germany
Member No.: 7,015



QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Feb 9 2010, 06:05 AM) *
.....

So, penalties for using capoeira in a fight it is.


Could you Quote a page reference in either the BBB or the Arsenal which says so ?
QUOTE
It seems to me that imposing penalties on someone using capoeira to fight with quite accurately replicates real world outcomes, so it totally sounds like the right route to go.

Prepare for a whole Bunch of Houserules and Modifiers
Because you'll be needing modifiers for each and every Martial Arts Vs each other Martial Arts
How Good is Aikido Vs Sangre Y Aceiro,
Which Penaltys for Krav Magat Vs Firefight
QUOTE
On the other hand, not imposing modifiers would mean that a cage fight with equally skilled opponents, one with Capoeira specialization and one with Muai Thai, they'd have the same chance of winning, which is obviously unrealistic

Maybe to you ,so go ahead make lots of Houserules ,Its Your game and that of yor fellow Players (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
but I'll bet if some of them are MA Fans (like Me) they'll have their own Preference and will tell You that their Martial Arts is whay better than yours and that It deserves a much higher Bonus compared to the other Inferior Martial Arts

withh a Martial Arts Dance
Medicineman

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
McCummhail
post Feb 9 2010, 02:52 PM
Post #50


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 388
Joined: 30-July 09
From: Charlotte, NC
Member No.: 17,452



Capoeira may not be the ideal art for all situations, but it is worth noting that:
QUOTE ("http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_dos_Reis_Machado")
In 1936, Bimba challenged fighters of any martial art style to test his regional style. He had four matches, fighting against Vítor Benedito Lopes, Henrique Bahia, José Custódio dos Santos ("Zé I") and Américo Ciência. Bimba won all matches.

So capoeira does have a precedent as a competent style against other martial arts in a fight of equals.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

5 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 9th May 2025 - 07:32 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.