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#26
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
Actually, they don't. They exclude some thing, and that's the whole point of them - the SA spec won't work with tasers. More important, they make it much easier when to apply them and don't just rely on the half-knowledge of the GM and the whining of the player. Yes, they exclude some things, but a given character is almost always going to be using her weapon type of choice. Yes, the SA spec doesn't cover tasers, but someone with the SA spec isn't going to use tasers most of the time, they'll be using SAs. QUOTE Even "when using the MA edges or maneuvers" doesn't help, as they are broad. Seems fairly clear to me. Any situation where you get a bonus from the MA quality (like improved damage, improved blocking, damage while disarming or whatever) and any situation which uses a MA maneuver you have would fall under the area of a MA spec. If it doesn't fall under one of these conditions you can't use your MA spec. Seems fairly cut and dry to me. |
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#27
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 ![]() |
Yes, they exclude some things, but a given character is almost always going to be using her weapon type of choice. They try to, which is just logical. That doesn't mean that the spec is unrestricted. Any situation where you get a bonus from the MA quality (like improved damage, improved blocking, damage while disarming or whatever) and any situation which uses a MA maneuver you have would fall under the area of a MA spec. The thing is, that means you basically can upgrade a spec until it applies 100% of the time, excluding nothing at all. |
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#28
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 212 Joined: 17-January 10 From: Sweden Member No.: 18,046 ![]() |
The thing is, that means you basically can upgrade a spec until it applies 100% of the time, excluding nothing at all. Except the 95% of the time when you are out of melee range, eating full bursts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I see your point though but I don't see it as much of a problem. "Combat Wounds" for first aid always applies (ok, it is theoretically possible that a character falls down a ladder and hurts himself...) A Combat spec magician still need to cast improve reflexes (health) and Levitate (manipulation) at times, non-hermetic mages also see a point summoning more than one type of spirit and that makes their specialization something that gives them a subset of their ability they excel in that we don't see in a melee fighter specializing in Martial Arts or a guy with a shotgun specalizing Longarms in shotguns because he'll only run around with said shotgun and is very unlikely to use any other weapon in the longarms skill. It had been nice if every specialization could be like those in magic or perception (one of 5 senses) but I don't think Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts) is particularly bad when it comes to being in effect all the time compared to most other skills. |
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#29
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 ![]() |
Except the 95% of the time when you are out of melee range, eating full bursts Wrong tree. "Combat Wounds" for first aid always applies Nope - other specs like poison, etc. happen to be need quite often. It had been nice if every specialization could be like those in magic or perception (one of 5 senses) but I don't think Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts) is particularly bad when it comes to being in effect all the time compared to most other skills. In my games, it applies at official tournaments only. |
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#30
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Freelance Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 ![]() |
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#31
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 212 Joined: 17-January 10 From: Sweden Member No.: 18,046 ![]() |
Nope - other specs like poison, etc. happen to be need quite often. I have not seen it that often, most poisons have such ridiculous power that any attempts to resist it (even with aid from spells) is rather futile. 2 darts Narcojet and you're down. Unless of course you can simply roll first aid to heal boxes but I don't really see how you can heal already inflicted damage from poison with a simple first aid test. You don't exactly bandage away drowsyness... Effects that give extra dice on poison resistance tests (or disease resist) have had no noticeable effect other than cripple the poor mage with 8-12 drain. I realize I'm partly OOT here, my point being that most other combat skills have specializations that will be in effect for nearly 100% of the time so why bother adding special rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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#32
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
There is no 'martial arts' skill, so you would use the blade skill. Martial arts specialization to blades skill would likely apply (But is a bit of a gimme spec as you've no reason to not fight using your martial art style) Again, this talk is about the Martial Arts positive quality in Arsenal. |
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#33
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,654 Joined: 29-October 06 Member No.: 9,731 ![]() |
If someone tried capoeira in a fight, I'd smack them with a Called Shot modifier for trying to attack in such a specific and impractical way. I'm fine with styles applying quite often, but only if players choose styles that actual works for fighting. I prefer my rules a little more RAW than that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) |
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#34
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
Hey folks, Just got a quick question that needs a confirmation, checked through books but couldn't see anything solid. I've got a character with a martial art (Arnis De Mano) and blades skill, and I'm confused which skill rating would be used in an attack. Do I: A) Use the martial art skill B) Use the blade skill C) Use the lowest value rated? I'm looking for a rulebook quotation for it to confirm it, as unless I get one the ruling will probably be for the lowest value and I'd rather not do myself out of dice to roll (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) QUOTE Again, this talk is about the Martial Arts positive quality in Arsenal. Really? Because I was under the impression that this was a question about how the martial arts skill (Which doesn't exist) interacts with the martial arts quality and an appropriate weapon skill. Barring the existence of a martial arts skill, it can be assumed that the OP was talking about a martial arts specialization. Because if you don't make that assumption, then the question was answered by me a while ago "There is no martial arts skill, so you use blade skill with the possibility of applying a martial arts spec" |
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#35
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
I've got a character with a martial art (Arnis De Mano) and blades skill, and I'm confused which skill rating would be used in an attack. Do I: It looks to me he was confused, trying to make the rating of the Positive Quality a skill, which it isn't. But he is definately talking about the Positive Quality and a weapon skill here. |
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#36
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 31-July 06 From: Denmark Member No.: 8,995 ![]() |
QUOTE (Smokeskin) If someone tried capoeira in a fight, I'd smack them with a Called Shot modifier for trying to attack in such a specific and impractical way. I'm fine with styles applying quite often, but only if players choose styles that actual works for fighting. I prefer my rules a little more RAW than that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) What do you mean? Capoeira isn't meant for actual fighting. If someone insists on using a specialization outside of where it applies, they should be hit with a large penalty. I guess it would only be used for showing off, kicking someone around in a strange way, like fighting with a hand behind your back or only using your thumbs. |
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#37
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
Capoeira was in fact meant for real fighting. It was designed to allow the slaves who made it fight while being able to convince the guards that they were just doing ritual dances. Whether or not it continues to be effective is another matter.
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#38
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
I prefer my rules a little more RAW than that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) What do you mean? Capoeira isn't meant for actual fighting. If someone insists on using a specialization outside of where it applies, they should be hit with a large penalty. I guess it would only be used for showing off, kicking someone around in a strange way, like fighting with a hand behind your back or only using your thumbs. And where are you getting your information from, because you seem to be singularly misinformed? Capoeira is indeed a fighting art... Keep the Faith |
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#39
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
And where are you getting your information from, because you seem to be singularly misinformed? Capoeira is indeed a fighting art... Keep the Faith Agreed. Capoeria is a fighting art. It doesn't -look- like it, but it is. Which is the entire point as Nerpah pointed out. Fact is that it can actually be very effective. Not because it is 'powerful' like the more traditional martial arts are, but because its moves are hard to predict and dodge/block. Is that a duck of my punch or a prep for a leg sweep? Is that really a leg sweep or are they going to change last minute to make it a kick to my face? Edit: It's kind of like drunken boxing (The martial arts style, not the bar fighting style ;P ) come to think of it. |
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#40
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Freelance Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 ![]() |
Capoeira isn't as brutally efficient and direct a martial art as we may have come to expect in modern times, but it really is still a martial art, and no more innately silly and ineffective than any other. Your average Capoeirista is also likely to be scarily fit and agile compared to many other martial artists, in fact, with tremendous cardio training, balance, and unpredictable movements.
They don't often do well when they compete in mixed martial arts-style tournaments (yes, we've all seen the very funny clip from Never Back Down, where a well-choreographed Superman punch stops the artsy-fartsy Capoeirista)...but that doesn't mean one of them couldn't surprise the hell out of your average thug and really wreck his day. And, fueled by proper dedication (not to mention Adept powers or cybernetically enhanced attributes) it could certainly be a pretty nasty fighting style. |
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#41
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 ![]() |
Something I've been wondering about. If you have the right specialization for the wrong skill, does it apply for the test?
For example. Electronic Warfare's description says you can take the Sensor Operations specialty. But that's a Perception test. If i have that spec, can I use it for that test, even though its a completely wrong skill? What about unarmed combat(Firefight +2). Can I claim the bonus when being a steriotypical hollywood action man with two guns, or would it only work if i'm using the gun in some sort of flashy pistol whip maneuver? Or is that the Clubs skill? The arsenal martial arts section of arsenal mentions that you can take(and with the GM's approval) martial arts specializations for melee weapons, if they fit. |
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#42
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
Something I've been wondering about. If you have the right specialization for the wrong skill, does it apply for the test? For example. Electronic Warfare's description says you can take the Sensor Operations specialty. But that's a Perception test. If i have that spec, can I use it for that test, even though its a completely wrong skill? What about unarmed combat(Firefight +2). Can I claim the bonus when being a steriotypical hollywood action man with two guns, or would it only work if i'm using the gun in some sort of flashy pistol whip maneuver? Or is that the Clubs skill? The arsenal martial arts section of arsenal mentions that you can take(and with the GM's approval) martial arts specializations for melee weapons, if they fit. Good question actually. For the first one I don't know but I'd say likely. For the second one I'd say no. It wouldn't even work for the pistol whip because that isn't unarmed. In that case it would just be 'you don't take an unarmed specialty in firefight, you take a pistol specialty in firefight' |
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#43
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Freelance Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 ![]() |
An awful lot of that sort of stuff comes down to a situation by situation, and GM by GM, basis. The hard and fast rule would probably be "no" almost every time, officially -- because it's safer for most game developers to, when in doubt, say "no" to extra dice.
But the Rule of Cool and the Rule of Shut Up And Let Them Have Fun come into play around a traditional tabletop, and I'd say your average friendly GM (maybe not at a con or something, but a buddy just slinging some dice with you) would probably say "yes" more often than not, if it's justified. At the very least, I'd probably toss a single die (splitting the difference between the yes and the no answers) to someone for out-of-the-box thinking. |
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#44
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 23-November 09 From: New Orleans Member No.: 17,897 ![]() |
Capoeira in action, the fightin' starts at 2:24.
I'm aware that this is not the rule, but I like to imagine that the Brazilian has a pink mohawk. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0KfQE2-ZqA |
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#45
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 31-July 06 From: Denmark Member No.: 8,995 ![]() |
Capoeira isn't as brutally efficient and direct a martial art as we may have come to expect in modern times, but it really is still a martial art, and no more innately silly and ineffective than any other. Your average Capoeirista is also likely to be scarily fit and agile compared to many other martial artists, in fact, with tremendous cardio training, balance, and unpredictable movements. They don't often do well when they compete in mixed martial arts-style tournaments (yes, we've all seen the very funny clip from Never Back Down, where a well-choreographed Superman punch stops the artsy-fartsy Capoeirista)...but that doesn't mean one of them couldn't surprise the hell out of your average thug and really wreck his day. And, fueled by proper dedication (not to mention Adept powers or cybernetically enhanced attributes) it could certainly be a pretty nasty fighting style. Exactly, it isn't brutally efficient or direct like other martial arts that do well in MMA-style tournaments. If you're going to use capoeira in an actual fight, you'll take penalties. If you're very good and fit, you'll easily kick the crap out of an average thug anyway. If you're fighting someone on your level, those penalties will probably make the difference and you'll lose, like it happens in MMA tournaments. It seems to me that imposing penalties on someone using capoeira to fight with quite accurately replicates real world outcomes, so it totally sounds like the right route to go. On the other hand, not imposing modifiers would mean that a cage fight with equally skilled opponents, one with Capoeira specialization and one with Muai Thai, they'd have the same chance of winning, which is obviously unrealistic. So, penalties for using capoeira in a fight it is. |
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#46
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
Exactly, it isn't brutally efficient or direct like other martial arts that do well in MMA-style tournaments. If you're going to use capoeira in an actual fight, you'll take penalties. If you're very good and fit, you'll easily kick the crap out of an average thug anyway. If you're fighting someone on your level, those penalties will probably make the difference and you'll lose, like it happens in MMA tournaments. It seems to me that imposing penalties on someone using capoeira to fight with quite accurately replicates real world outcomes, so it totally sounds like the right route to go. On the other hand, not imposing modifiers would mean that a cage fight with equally skilled opponents, one with Capoeira specialization and one with Muai Thai, they'd have the same chance of winning, which is obviously unrealistic. So, penalties for using capoeira in a fight it is. Well, first off that makes the quality useless for getting Capoeira style. Second off you seem to forget that this is a game, and realism isn't generally a factor. Third, there is already an advantage to picking another style over Capoeira, and that is quite simply that the others get better bonuses as far as the rules are concerned. Also keep in mind that there are other fighting styles in there that are going to be less effective in a MMA tournament. No boxer is going to stand a chance in a MMA tournament if only because they aren't used to being kicked at and stuff like that. Should he get a penalty as well? You definitely seem to have some deep seeded misunderstanding of Capoeira that makes you think it is dancing that just happens to be applicable to fighting, instead of fighting that just happens to look like dancing. Edit: Should also note that the kick that the one guy delivered in the video would have hurt far more than any punch that a boxer could ever hope to deliver, and yet boxing is the one with bonuses do DV. Capoeira is already weakened because it gets lackluster bonuses, no reason to add extra penalties. |
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#47
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 ![]() |
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#48
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 31-July 06 From: Denmark Member No.: 8,995 ![]() |
Well, first off that makes the quality useless for getting Capoeira style. Second off you seem to forget that this is a game, and realism isn't generally a factor. Third, there is already an advantage to picking another style over Capoeira, and that is quite simply that the others get better bonuses as far as the rules are concerned. I wouldn't ignore the bonuses from Capoeira Qualities, I said if someone wanted to use the specialization Unarmed Combat(Capoeira +2) and wanted the bonus die in real fight, I'd hit them with a penalty. Someone fighting with straight Unarmed Combat and Capoeira Qualities, that's a person fighting properly and getting bonuses from having more options. |
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#49
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,748 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Good ol' Germany Member No.: 7,015 ![]() |
..... So, penalties for using capoeira in a fight it is. Could you Quote a page reference in either the BBB or the Arsenal which says so ? QUOTE It seems to me that imposing penalties on someone using capoeira to fight with quite accurately replicates real world outcomes, so it totally sounds like the right route to go. Prepare for a whole Bunch of Houserules and Modifiers Because you'll be needing modifiers for each and every Martial Arts Vs each other Martial Arts How Good is Aikido Vs Sangre Y Aceiro, Which Penaltys for Krav Magat Vs Firefight QUOTE On the other hand, not imposing modifiers would mean that a cage fight with equally skilled opponents, one with Capoeira specialization and one with Muai Thai, they'd have the same chance of winning, which is obviously unrealistic Maybe to you ,so go ahead make lots of Houserules ,Its Your game and that of yor fellow Players (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) but I'll bet if some of them are MA Fans (like Me) they'll have their own Preference and will tell You that their Martial Arts is whay better than yours and that It deserves a much higher Bonus compared to the other Inferior Martial Arts withh a Martial Arts Dance Medicineman |
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#50
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 30-July 09 From: Charlotte, NC Member No.: 17,452 ![]() |
Capoeira may not be the ideal art for all situations, but it is worth noting that:
QUOTE ("http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_dos_Reis_Machado") In 1936, Bimba challenged fighters of any martial art style to test his regional style. He had four matches, fighting against Vítor Benedito Lopes, Henrique Bahia, José Custódio dos Santos ("Zé I") and Américo Ciência. Bimba won all matches. So capoeira does have a precedent as a competent style against other martial arts in a fight of equals. |
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