Hey folks,

Just got a quick question that needs a confirmation, checked through books but couldn't see anything solid.

I've got a character with a martial art (Arnis De Mano) and blades skill, and I'm confused which skill rating would be used in an attack. Do I:

A) Use the martial art skill
B) Use the blade skill
C) Use the lowest value rated?

I'm looking for a rulebook quotation for it to confirm it, as unless I get one the ruling will probably be for the lowest value and I'd rather not do myself out of dice to roll

Martial arts just give modifiers or bonuses to skills, they do not limit or replace the skill rating in any way.

So if you had, say:

Agility 3
Blades 3 (Swords +2)

And

Martial Arts (Arnis de Mano: +1 Blades)

Then you would have 9 dice (Agility 3 + Blades 3 + 2 from specialization + 1 from martial arts) when attacking with a sword.

Agi + blade skill + modifiers when using a blade in an attack test

depending on what advantages you've taken you might add dice in modifiers or change the DV directly, and so on

Not that Arnis has a dice pool modifier for blades.

Your GM may allow it as a specialisation but this is open to abuse. The character should be able to use it more often than not, but if he gets in a hell of a lot of fights and never uses the base skill rating then it's been overpowered.

I think you may be confusing the Martial Arts specialisation off Unarmed with the Martial Arts optional system from Arsenal. This thread appears to be discussing the latter rather than the former.

I've got a related question. I took Muay Thai and +1 DV to unarmed attacks. Is cyber implant weaponry considered unarmed? Like a spur, or goring horns? Or do we go strictly on a skill basis? Unarmed Combat skill and Exotic Melee Weapon skill?

It's skill based. So for the spur, you need a DV bonus on Blades.

But it that is the default, then that brings us back to the question of whether the Hardliner Gloves are actually a weapon (as listed under the charts) or an Unarmed Combat Damage Increase (+1DV to Unarmed Combat) as that is the skill being used... Can't have it both ways...

Keep the faith

That wasn't the question. It was about the adept power.

There is no 'martial arts' skill, so you would use the blade skill. Martial arts specialization to blades skill would likely apply (But is a bit of a gimme spec as you've no reason to not fight using your martial art style)

Well if it's skill based, then... it depends on which skill you're using - Blades (Cyber-implant Blades) or Exotic Melee Weapon (Cyber-implant Spurs).

For goring horns, if it's strictly skill based, then I don't get the bonus, since my +1DV bonus is to Unarmed Combat tests, and goring horns use Exotic Melee Weapon (Goring Horns). But the wording is for "unarmed attacks". Are horns that are growing out of my head considered weapons, or am I still unarmed? If we go by what makes sense, rather than RAW, how far a stretch is it?

Does Muay Thai teach headbutt technique? That's basically where I'd draw the line. Boxing does not, so the +1DV from Boxing would not apply to horns by my ruling, Muay Thai, I think, is the same.

No, I was not referring to the OP, but to the discussion that pops up from time to time about that very thing... whether the mechanics override the tables (ie, because Unarmed is used with a Hardliner glove, is it a Weapon or a DV adjustment?)... this is in some ways similar to statements being used here, in that does Martial Arts apply universally, or is it Skill Dependant... The argument tends to swing both ways, depending upon who is discussing it at the moment...

So, it did have some tangential relevance... but not much I will indeed admit; so I apologize for the sidetrack......

Keep the Faith

That's a fair way to look at it. The book says,



It does mention the brutality, which always seemed to me to be an anything-goes sort of style, but it also says legs, knees and elbows. But then wouldn't my martial arts practice include using my body in all ways necessary? Which brings us back to whether horns are armed or unarmed. Kinda borderline, but I think I'll say no.

Thanks!

Hehehe, haven't watched many Bernard Hopkins or Evander Holyfield boxing matches, have you?

..about the adept power Critical Strike.

Given that MT borrows from normal boxing, too, and you seem to thing that boxing does - it does.

I don't think I was. The optional system in Arsenal is distinct from the specialisation, but doesn't replace it. The optional system gives bonuses (used where applicable) and maneuvers (used where desired), whilst the specialisation gives a bonus 2 dice so long as the fighting style suits the situation. The first represents learning the strengths and techniques of the style in question, whilst the latter represents training focused on the fighter's prowess when specifically using the style. No reason you can't have both or just one.

It seemed relevant to a discussion about skill ratings and their conjuctive use with the optional system.

Which is pretty much either broken or useless - either it applies pretty much always... or it only applies for formalized tournaments with rules.

By no means broken! A lot of fighting may just be under tournament or arranged duel situations. It is just like "Sports injuries" specialization on First aid might seem "broken" for a min-maxed shadowrunner it is a far more plausible explanation how a runner became rich enough too stuff his body full of the latest and best bioware!

Not all fights or adventures are gunfights in the same alley where nothing but "Who has the highest force spirit spamming 'Fear'?" matters.

So it's "useless" then - I can live with that.

It's not broken, just prone to abuse as I said in my first posting. There are plenty of conceivable situations where a martial arts specialisation wouldn't be applicable but the base skill would:

- Fighting blind might be considered an impediment to styles reliant on pinpoint accuracy.
- Few styles will cope well in restricted spaces.
- A troll boxer should definitely not get his specialisation bonus against a dwarf.
- Capoeira is unlikely to help on a narrow ledge.
- Judo is useless if you need to throw a punch.

And so on.

The player should totally expect to use it more often than not (just as someone with a specialisation in semi-automatics won't go buying many six-shooters) but will have to be prepared for times when it doesn't apply.

Actually I think it might be fairly.... oh ledge, not not on a ledge, but I'd imagine it would be good on like a beam or something where the ground is minimal but they have plenty of room to either side.... how many melee combats have you had on ledges in SR?



Which is a good point. All the other combat skills have 'This spec applies 99% of the time' options, so I don't see why unarmed shouldn't. SA is practically the only kind of pistol that exists, and so even if a runner manages to loose her own, the chances are >90% that the next random pistol she jacks from someone will be an SA pistol. Heck, most skills that you spec in you're generally only going to be making the spec test, so I don't see a 'martial arts' unarmed/weapon spec being all that broken.

If someone tried capoeira in a fight, I'd smack them with a Called Shot modifier for trying to attack in such a specific and impractical way. I'm fine with styles applying quite often, but only if players choose styles that actual works for fighting.

And semi-automatics, doesn't nearly everyone houserule that into light and heavy pistols?

Actually, they don't. They exclude some thing, and that's the whole point of them - the SA spec won't work with tasers.
More important, they make it much easier when to apply them and don't just rely on the half-knowledge of the GM and the whining of the player.

Even "when using the MA edges or maneuvers" doesn't help, as they are broad.

Yes, they exclude some things, but a given character is almost always going to be using her weapon type of choice. Yes, the SA spec doesn't cover tasers, but someone with the SA spec isn't going to use tasers most of the time, they'll be using SAs.



Seems fairly clear to me. Any situation where you get a bonus from the MA quality (like improved damage, improved blocking, damage while disarming or whatever) and any situation which uses a MA maneuver you have would fall under the area of a MA spec. If it doesn't fall under one of these conditions you can't use your MA spec. Seems fairly cut and dry to me.

They try to, which is just logical. That doesn't mean that the spec is unrestricted.

The thing is, that means you basically can upgrade a spec until it applies 100% of the time, excluding nothing at all.

Except the 95% of the time when you are out of melee range, eating full bursts

I see your point though but I don't see it as much of a problem. "Combat Wounds" for first aid always applies (ok, it is theoretically possible that a character falls down a ladder and hurts himself...)

A Combat spec magician still need to cast improve reflexes (health) and Levitate (manipulation) at times, non-hermetic mages also see a point summoning more than one type of spirit and that makes their specialization something that gives them a subset of their ability they excel in that we don't see in a melee fighter specializing in Martial Arts or a guy with a shotgun specalizing Longarms in shotguns because he'll only run around with said shotgun and is very unlikely to use any other weapon in the longarms skill.

It had been nice if every specialization could be like those in magic or perception (one of 5 senses) but I don't think Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts) is particularly bad when it comes to being in effect all the time compared to most other skills.

Wrong tree.

Nope - other specs like poison, etc. happen to be need quite often.

In my games, it applies at official tournaments only.

Wow. That's...uhh...is that real often? How many adventures involve a SWEEP THE LEG moment, anyways?

I have not seen it that often, most poisons have such ridiculous power that any attempts to resist it (even with aid from spells) is rather futile. 2 darts Narcojet and you're down. Unless of course you can simply roll first aid to heal boxes but I don't really see how you can heal already inflicted damage from poison with a simple first aid test. You don't exactly bandage away drowsyness...

Effects that give extra dice on poison resistance tests (or disease resist) have had no noticeable effect other than cripple the poor mage with 8-12 drain.

I realize I'm partly OOT here, my point being that most other combat skills have specializations that will be in effect for nearly 100% of the time so why bother adding special rules

Again, this talk is about the Martial Arts positive quality in Arsenal.

I prefer my rules a little more RAW than that.

Really? Because I was under the impression that this was a question about how the martial arts skill (Which doesn't exist) interacts with the martial arts quality and an appropriate weapon skill. Barring the existence of a martial arts skill, it can be assumed that the OP was talking about a martial arts specialization.

Because if you don't make that assumption, then the question was answered by me a while ago "There is no martial arts skill, so you use blade skill with the possibility of applying a martial arts spec"

It looks to me he was confused, trying to make the rating of the Positive Quality a skill, which it isn't. But he is definately talking about the Positive Quality and a weapon skill here.

What do you mean? Capoeira isn't meant for actual fighting. If someone insists on using a specialization outside of where it applies, they should be hit with a large penalty. I guess it would only be used for showing off, kicking someone around in a strange way, like fighting with a hand behind your back or only using your thumbs.

Capoeira was in fact meant for real fighting. It was designed to allow the slaves who made it fight while being able to convince the guards that they were just doing ritual dances. Whether or not it continues to be effective is another matter.

And where are you getting your information from, because you seem to be singularly misinformed? Capoeira is indeed a fighting art...

Keep the Faith

Agreed. Capoeria is a fighting art. It doesn't -look- like it, but it is. Which is the entire point as Nerpah pointed out.

Fact is that it can actually be very effective. Not because it is 'powerful' like the more traditional martial arts are, but because its moves are hard to predict and dodge/block. Is that a duck of my punch or a prep for a leg sweep? Is that really a leg sweep or are they going to change last minute to make it a kick to my face?

Edit: It's kind of like drunken boxing (The martial arts style, not the bar fighting style ;P ) come to think of it.

Capoeira isn't as brutally efficient and direct a martial art as we may have come to expect in modern times, but it really is still a martial art, and no more innately silly and ineffective than any other. Your average Capoeirista is also likely to be scarily fit and agile compared to many other martial artists, in fact, with tremendous cardio training, balance, and unpredictable movements.

They don't often do well when they compete in mixed martial arts-style tournaments (yes, we've all seen the very funny clip from Never Back Down, where a well-choreographed Superman punch stops the artsy-fartsy Capoeirista)...but that doesn't mean one of them couldn't surprise the hell out of your average thug and really wreck his day. And, fueled by proper dedication (not to mention Adept powers or cybernetically enhanced attributes) it could certainly be a pretty nasty fighting style.

Something I've been wondering about. If you have the right specialization for the wrong skill, does it apply for the test?

For example. Electronic Warfare's description says you can take the Sensor Operations specialty. But that's a Perception test. If i have that spec, can I use it for that test, even though its a completely wrong skill?

What about unarmed combat(Firefight +2). Can I claim the bonus when being a steriotypical hollywood action man with two guns, or would it only work if i'm using the gun in some sort of flashy pistol whip maneuver? Or is that the Clubs skill? The arsenal martial arts section of arsenal mentions that you can take(and with the GM's approval) martial arts specializations for melee weapons, if they fit.

Good question actually. For the first one I don't know but I'd say likely.

For the second one I'd say no. It wouldn't even work for the pistol whip because that isn't unarmed. In that case it would just be 'you don't take an unarmed specialty in firefight, you take a pistol specialty in firefight'

An awful lot of that sort of stuff comes down to a situation by situation, and GM by GM, basis. The hard and fast rule would probably be "no" almost every time, officially -- because it's safer for most game developers to, when in doubt, say "no" to extra dice.

But the Rule of Cool and the Rule of Shut Up And Let Them Have Fun come into play around a traditional tabletop, and I'd say your average friendly GM (maybe not at a con or something, but a buddy just slinging some dice with you) would probably say "yes" more often than not, if it's justified. At the very least, I'd probably toss a single die (splitting the difference between the yes and the no answers) to someone for out-of-the-box thinking.

Capoeira in action, the fightin' starts at 2:24.

I'm aware that this is not the rule, but I like to imagine that the Brazilian has a pink mohawk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0KfQE2-ZqA

Exactly, it isn't brutally efficient or direct like other martial arts that do well in MMA-style tournaments. If you're going to use capoeira in an actual fight, you'll take penalties. If you're very good and fit, you'll easily kick the crap out of an average thug anyway. If you're fighting someone on your level, those penalties will probably make the difference and you'll lose, like it happens in MMA tournaments.

It seems to me that imposing penalties on someone using capoeira to fight with quite accurately replicates real world outcomes, so it totally sounds like the right route to go.

On the other hand, not imposing modifiers would mean that a cage fight with equally skilled opponents, one with Capoeira specialization and one with Muai Thai, they'd have the same chance of winning, which is obviously unrealistic.

So, penalties for using capoeira in a fight it is.

Well, first off that makes the quality useless for getting Capoeira style. Second off you seem to forget that this is a game, and realism isn't generally a factor. Third, there is already an advantage to picking another style over Capoeira, and that is quite simply that the others get better bonuses as far as the rules are concerned.

Also keep in mind that there are other fighting styles in there that are going to be less effective in a MMA tournament. No boxer is going to stand a chance in a MMA tournament if only because they aren't used to being kicked at and stuff like that. Should he get a penalty as well?

You definitely seem to have some deep seeded misunderstanding of Capoeira that makes you think it is dancing that just happens to be applicable to fighting, instead of fighting that just happens to look like dancing.

Edit: Should also note that the kick that the one guy delivered in the video would have hurt far more than any punch that a boxer could ever hope to deliver, and yet boxing is the one with bonuses do DV. Capoeira is already weakened because it gets lackluster bonuses, no reason to add extra penalties.

No - just like the Theatrical or Trideo specs of Disguise won't be.

I wouldn't ignore the bonuses from Capoeira Qualities, I said if someone wanted to use the specialization Unarmed Combat(Capoeira +2) and wanted the bonus die in real fight, I'd hit them with a penalty.

Someone fighting with straight Unarmed Combat and Capoeira Qualities, that's a person fighting properly and getting bonuses from having more options.

Could you Quote a page reference in either the BBB or the Arsenal which says so ?

Prepare for a whole Bunch of Houserules and Modifiers
Because you'll be needing modifiers for each and every Martial Arts Vs each other Martial Arts
How Good is Aikido Vs Sangre Y Aceiro,
Which Penaltys for Krav Magat Vs Firefight

Maybe to you ,so go ahead make lots of Houserules ,Its Your game and that of yor fellow Players
but I'll bet if some of them are MA Fans (like Me) they'll have their own Preference and will tell You that their Martial Arts is whay better than yours and that It deserves a much higher Bonus compared to the other Inferior Martial Arts

withh a Martial Arts Dance
Medicineman

Capoeira may not be the ideal art for all situations, but it is worth noting that:

So capoeira does have a precedent as a competent style against other martial arts in a fight of equals.