I am especially strong because I appear weak - 5'8", 130 lbs. Short, small, 17 martial arts.

On capoeria, obviously it is good, just look at how often these two win their matches. Seriously, you people are arguing over a game. If you don't like capoeria, just don't give the specialization bonuses too often, that's punishment enough. There's no need to apply penalties as well.

Ok, this is all anecdotal information but I'll give my two too.
I've practiced Judo and Capoeira for almost 4 years summed, mind you that both of them as SPORTS. Judo is quite inefective in a fight with someone who knows the most basic stance of fighting, me and my brother used to fight a lot on our teens and I always beat him using Judo moves, I mean, come on, judo moves are the easiest thing to dodge if you know what you are doing and I'm not even a good fighter, I admit that.
Now, capoeira I practiced even less, like 6-8 months and I dropped out because of the insanely strong legs you need to be really good.
Someone mentioned earlier on this thread about the queixada move. It is one of the most effective capoeira moves there is because you are using your whole body to create momentum and you don't need to do any of those dance moves to accomplish, just a ready stance; on a way more flashier example, it looks similar to Street Fighter Guile's special attack of holding down+up+kick.
Also, as Garou mentioned. Do you want realistic martial arts rules for RPG. Go play GURPS, it works quite well.

EDIT: Also, go watch the Besouro movie. It is the story of a kick-ass capoeirista of the 19th to the 20th century that beat the crap out of people. Mind you the movie TRIES to look like wusha movies like Crouchinh Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Hero, etc...

"I want a realistic game, so you're not going to be supereffective at beating people up with capoeira or aikido or shotokan karate."



Ok, Ok Smokeskin I can understand you picking on Capoeira or Aikido; but you leave Shotokan out of this!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyoto_Machida Lyoto's Wikipedia entry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMYJc1OkttY Lyoto's career highlights

Wouldn't it be reasonable to inform your players that capoeira is not an unarmed combat specialization? Since in your games it really isn't.

You can make it a gymnastics, etiquette, or a knowledge specialization usable when performing or dancing or just showing off.

The fact that it's a specialization in unarmed combat implies that the game assumes that it is effective in unarmed combat. If you house rule that it is ineffective in combat than it shouldn't be a specialization in unarmed combat.

I think that most of the people here is expressing how they would react if they were a player sitting at the table with you. Isn't it safe to assume that a character who has devoted time and effort training in combat has real world experience in doing so. I'm assuming that in your games the characters are running around shooting and punching people in the face, not sitting around in a dojo.

Telling a player that his specialization does not grant him a +2 but rather a -2 is not dickish because of your world views. It's dickish because you didn't inform him of your world views before he spent that Karma.

You're assuming that "capoeira brutalis" is not the default capoeira referred to in the book.

I take it you chose not to read my previous post?
It would also appear that you have a severe bias against "traditional" martial arts and "soft" martial arts.

Capoeira Regional as codified by Mestre Bimba includes grappling (takedowns, mounts, joint locks, and throws), close strikes (palm / elbow / knee strikes and headbutting) and the solid kicks it is most famous for.
Bimba also cleaned up the art and focused on making it a respectable and viable martial art.
How it was in the days when it was "vicious", "criminal" and "could defeat squads of armed men" is at this point largely academic. I am curious what it was like, but that may have been mostly exaggeration.

I won't waste your time or mine linking MMA videos of capoeira. The few fighters who use capoeira in MMA effectively use it for it's excellent kick structure and toss the rest out the window to focus on grappling techniques or boxing techniques. You could watch Andre Gusmao or Silva or others but you might not see Capoeira there.
That doesn't mean that the kick he is using isnt a 'Martello' though.
I have seen no Krav Maga MMA fighters. No Taijiquan. No drunken boxing. No Hapkido. I don't doubt the capacity of these or other martial arts, but they may not have a place in the sport of MMA.
My experience with capoeira gave me confidence in my ability to defend myself more so than my 'karate' experience, but like anything else that has as much to do with the teacher, the school and the circumstance.

If you want an effective fighter and something to watch here is Anderson da Silva demonstrating capoeira techniques.

In this video, Mestre Espirro Mirim mixes work on target mitts with his usual playful showboating.

Even though this video is a choreographed scene from a Tony Jaa movie, either one of them could easily kick my butt or trounce gangers in the barrens (plus this scene is a really well shot and fun to watch).

Actually you are completely right about Aikido. Aikido, Judo, Kendo and the other Japanese traditional sports are modern sport interpretations of traditional martial arts. These three arts are also all linked to elements of the fighting technique system that involved the traditional Japanese weapons, such as the Katana. Generally speaking if a Japanese system calls itself "~jutsu" as opposed to "~do" it implies more focus on combat applications. Hence, Aikido (which focuses on health and defense) has been lulling people into a false sense of security about Aikijutsu since WWII.

If you want to know something in particular maybe myself or one of the others could answer it.
Civility and respect are essential everywhere but in a fight for your life.

Hehe. It says he took up muai thai to prepare for MMA, and is a BJJ black belt too. Shotokan karate looks A LOT different from what he uses in that video. I don't think he's using his shotokan specialization

Of course I let them know it. I even let them pick situations where their spec should apply. The style just has to fit the effects, which means you're not getting +2 dice while doing aikido or handstand kicks.

There's no capoeira specialization mentioned in any book that I know of. As I wrote before, as per RAW I'm fine with qualities applying, you can fight effectively but rely on a few applicable special tricks and extreme athleticism you've developed from years of training. That's different than using the spec, which by RAW says that when using the spec, it has to apply to the situation, and capoeira doesn't apply to real fighting.

Qualities always apply, specs don't.

I did watch some Gusmao movies, and I didn't see capoeira. As you write, they toss most of it out the window when they fight. To me, that means they're not using capoeira specialization. The stuff they do retain from capoeira, per SR4 rules would be covered by having capoeira qualities.




If you take Krav Maga, I've trained it, and they're very open about their style focusing little on 1 on 1 fighting. In my SR game, a Krav Maga spec would work against single, multiple and armed attackers (most MAs only apply against single unarmed attackers), and apply either the +2 dice to either all defense tests for civilian KM and +2 dice to all tests for the first round of combat for military KM. Those bonuses aren't too hot for MMA.

Just there are no "<insert Martial Art here>" Specs. There is just a general "Martial Arts" spec.

It isn't exactly clear in the main rulebook, but Arsenal pg 156 makes it quite clear that you pick a style.

If anything about this specialization would be clear, it wouldn't be this horrible.

I need more goddamn popcorn if this thread is gonna continue.

Is goddamn popcorn a marketing term for reduced fat, no butter flavor popcorn?

It's popcorn tthat can beat you up, because you know capoeira and it knows a *real* martial art.
It'll punch the shit outa your mouth. PUNCH IT WITH FLAVOR.

(I would apologize for my madness, but I've been coding age gates in C# all goddamn week and I'm not a dev, so I'm going crazy.)

Aaaaaahhh! Chuck Norris flavored popcorn!

At least you don't have to code in VB to improve an excel database,
or collate data from a ridiculous archive of flat files.
If in fact you do, then you have my sympathy.

Thankfully not. But I admit, it would help my work-related endeavours if I actually, you know, KNEW C#. Which isn't really the case.

Hell yes. There's a reason most martial arts use open-hand techniques. I'd call it no different than specializing in kicks, punches, grappling, or headbutts.

So, just out of curiosity - do you penalize Ares Firefight for total crap and useless in a real fight? Because a gunfighter whirling through a melee with a pistol in each hand while punching, kicking, and shooting is a lot less applicable to a real fight than the most showy Capoeira moves...

Someone has never seen Equilibrium!