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Ophis
post Feb 9 2010, 07:46 AM
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QUOTE (wind_in_the_stones @ Feb 9 2010, 03:47 AM) *
Um, not quite sure what you're saying here, but just in case... the extra cost for raising an attribute to 6 only applies during character generation.


Basically I take away racial mods and initiate level from the relevant stats before working out karma cost. IE an elf tak Cha from 7-8 cost 30 Karma not 40 (racial mod 4), and Grade 4 Initiate treats his magic as 4 less for costing purposes so going 8 to 9 costs 25 karma (effectively 4-5). It keeps costs down to just pricey rather than Good god.
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Karoline
post Feb 9 2010, 01:24 PM
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QUOTE (Ophis @ Feb 9 2010, 02:46 AM) *
Basically I take away racial mods and initiate level from the relevant stats before working out karma cost. IE an elf tak Cha from 7-8 cost 30 Karma not 40 (racial mod 4), and Grade 4 Initiate treats his magic as 4 less for costing purposes so going 8 to 9 costs 25 karma (effectively 4-5). It keeps costs down to just pricey rather than Good god.


Hmm, that's actually a fairly good idea. I've seen that before with ideas to help balance karmagen by including a karma cost to race, but buying stats before racial bonuses applied (but after penalties) so that it didn't cost half a troll's karma to raise his body and strength two points.
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Karoline
post Feb 9 2010, 01:29 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 9 2010, 12:10 AM) *
I myself prefer the "reality hacker" method,* because I'm such a code nut.

Also, XKCD.


If I ever awakened, that is totally the style I would go with.

It is important to notice though that most 'wizard' types are basically this. They operate under a 'if I do X, I can make Y happen, but if I do X with this extra twist I can make Z happen' sort of system. Very structured, very code like really (I chant 'blargal smuut' and wiggle my fingers and a fireball appears). Hermetics operate under this theory, and it is very similar to the one that Chaos Mages (I have no idea why the structured, logical, and reality hacker type tradition got the Chaos moniker) follow. Main difference is that Hermetics got caught up in alot of the 'look ma, I'm a wizard' trappings and the Chaos Mages decided to drop that.
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Draco18s
post Feb 9 2010, 01:56 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 9 2010, 08:29 AM) *
(I have no idea why the structured, logical, and reality hacker type tradition got the Chaos moniker)


Me either.

The only thing I can think of is some connection to "universal entropy" and tapping into that.

I, of course, have read So You Want To Be A Wizard and would like to see a mage on the other side of that entropy line....
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Ophis
post Feb 9 2010, 09:12 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 9 2010, 01:56 PM) *
Me either.

The only thing I can think of is some connection to "universal entropy" and tapping into that.

I, of course, have read So You Want To Be A Wizard and would like to see a mage on the other side of that entropy line....


Despite having had some practise as/with Chaos Mages (local occult group) I'm not sure. I suspect it has something to do with the absolute freedom and being outside a specific structured form. I'll ask a friend.
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Ophis
post Feb 9 2010, 11:47 PM
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As said I asked my practising Chaos Mage friend and this is what he sent

QUOTE (Jez and Wikpedia)
How-do,

It's actually rather arbitrary, to be honest, and it should be pointed out that it has nothing particularly to do with the mythological idea of chaos (although that is important to some individual practitioners). I've heard it from Pete Carroll, and people have largely snipped his words to make the following extract from the wikipedia page on the subject...

The first edition of Liber Null does not include the term "chaos magic", but only refers to magic or "the magic art" in general.[4] Texts from this period consistently claim to state principles universal to magic, as opposed to a new specific style or tradition of magic, and describe their innovations as efforts to rid magic of superstitious and religious ideas. Psychonaut uses the label "individual sorcery as taught by the IOT".[4]

Chaos came to be part of this movement defined as "the 'thing' responsible for the origin and continued action of events[...]. It could as well be called God or Tao, but the name Chaos is virtually meaningless and free from the childish, anthropomorphic ideas of religion."[4] The Symbol of Chaos used to signify it was apparently, but not explicitly, lifted from the fantasy novels of Michael Moorcock. Carroll wrote that the chaotic aspect of this magic aims for "psychological anarchy[...] The aim is to produce inspiration and enlightenment through disordering our belief structures."[4]

4. Liber Null & Psychonaut, 1987. Peter Carroll, ISBN 0-87728-639-6

-----

I'd add to this that there was a lot of interest in the mathematical concepts of chaos, or as we are more likely to call them now, non-linear dynamics, inspired particularly by James Gleick's popular book 'Chaos'.

It could have been called results magic, it could have been called pragmatic magic, but the particular blend of magic, art and science just clicked with the ideas about chaos circulating at the time. Now of course some folk take many parts of the movement as a virtual religion, which was never really the point!

The key of the whole thing, as Pete put down clearly in 'Liber Kaos', is simply that one becomes a magician by realising that belief is a tool, and then acting on that realisation.


So there you go.
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Draco18s
post Feb 10 2010, 12:16 AM
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Oh, I see, they are referring to the Chaos that created the idea of...well, everything. Not chaos as in disorder, entropy, or randomness, but the concept that allows for other concepts to exist.

Which makes perfect sense.

Edit:
Exploiting Madelbugs of the universe. Essentially.
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Ophis
post Feb 10 2010, 06:31 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 10 2010, 12:16 AM) *
Oh, I see, they are referring to the Chaos that created the idea of...well, everything. Not chaos as in disorder, entropy, or randomness, but the concept that allows for other concepts to exist.

Which makes perfect sense.

Edit:
Exploiting Madelbugs of the universe. Essentially.


Several old Mediterranean religions/mythologies talk about the creator deities/world emerging from the form Chaos.
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Falconer
post Feb 10 2010, 10:11 PM
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To OP.

I suggest reading the published traditions.. 2 in SR4a and more in street magic. Present the player w/ ones suitable to the characters background/outlook. I also suggest avoiding possession traditions until you're more intimately familiar w/ the magic rules. (or just tweaking the tradition to change 1 spirit type, or change from possession to materialization).

Then choosing an appropriate one. As you're evidently new and having issues. You don't want to get into custom crafted traditions. Also there's another problem for you as a GM... how does the tradition fit into the game. The single biggest problem w/ a custom tradition is that there's nowhere to buy spells or instructors from!


Some of the things like allowing MA reduced costs are broken. MA's are the single most powerfull type you can get, the price they pay for this is that it costs them more to advance their magical abilities. I can see giving them astral perception for free, (or allowing it as a metamagic on initiation). But otherwise I'd limit that. Also one thing which can really help a MA is a power focus (it adds to both adept and magician powers based on magic...) A little karma expensive but far less so than raising the magical stats in question. (IE: common combat monkey MA trick is to get power focus and health sustaining focus and use increase reflexes spell over the adept power).
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Sengir
post Feb 10 2010, 11:27 PM
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QUOTE (Ophis @ Feb 10 2010, 07:31 PM) *
Several old Mediterranean religions/mythologies talk about the creator deities/world emerging from the form Chaos.

Judo-christian mythology also says that in the beginning the earth basically was chaos, until the guy upstairs snapped his fingers...


A bit more on topic: Can an Awakened actually convert to another tradition? I remember that Sam Verner became a dog shaman without wanting it or even believing in magic, but the current canon seem to be that whatever one believes in is his tradition. So what happens if somebody changes his belief and now follows His Holy Noodliness from the bottom of his heart?
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Ophis
post Feb 11 2010, 12:48 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Feb 10 2010, 10:11 PM) *
To OP.

I suggest reading the published traditions.. 2 in SR4a and more in street magic. Present the player w/ ones suitable to the characters background/outlook. I also suggest avoiding possession traditions until you're more intimately familiar w/ the magic rules. (or just tweaking the tradition to change 1 spirit type, or change from possession to materialization).

Then choosing an appropriate one. As you're evidently new and having issues. You don't want to get into custom crafted traditions. Also there's another problem for you as a GM... how does the tradition fit into the game. The single biggest problem w/ a custom tradition is that there's nowhere to buy spells or instructors from!


Some of the things like allowing MA reduced costs are broken. MA's are the single most powerfull type you can get, the price they pay for this is that it costs them more to advance their magical abilities. I can see giving them astral perception for free, (or allowing it as a metamagic on initiation). But otherwise I'd limit that. Also one thing which can really help a MA is a power focus (it adds to both adept and magician powers based on magic...) A little karma expensive but far less so than raising the magical stats in question. (IE: common combat monkey MA trick is to get power focus and health sustaining focus and use increase reflexes spell over the adept power).


I'm hardly new, I have three times your post count! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Also I've been running SR for over 15 years, since I've never done this before (latent awakening) I figured I could get some interesting ideas by posting about this. I've done custom traditions (celtic berzerk/warp spasm tradition) and they worked out well for me. I'm not worried about Power Foci as I play heavily with focus addiction and I'm not worried about adept powers that get boosted by magic (if it granted PPs then I'd worry). MAs are good and very cool, but hardly the nastiest thing out there (excepting unlimited karma) Anything they can do a mage can do to, however they have great versatility which is a definite plus.
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Falconer
post Feb 11 2010, 03:28 AM
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Don't go by post count... go by age... I rarely post much. But you're right I made a mistake, for some reason reading your post I thought you were new and after reading the thread, didn't go back to recheck. If it helps, I cut my teeth on SR1st.


That's typically the problem w/ the MA... they can do well pretty much anything and everything, and it's very easy to lose focus and try to do too much, to become a jack of all trades and not be good enough at any of them to be usefull. And, generally when people suggest reduced costs for this... it's a little unfair to the magicians and adepts as a lot of the adept powers can be mimiced w/ spells... and a lot of adept powers aren't done well w/ spells. So by carefully picking the best of both worlds... generally they can make out pretty well, even w/ the advancement costs.

IMO: the biggest weakness is their inability to project, the necessity of spending 1full PP on astral perception if you want to be able to clean up spell signatures after yourself. Though projection can be obtained through a great form w/ the astral gateway power, w/some initiation and resource expenditure.
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Ophis
post Feb 12 2010, 05:11 PM
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Any discounts I apply go across the board (except the Astral sight one natch), that way they stay fair.

I think my plan will be to chat with the player OC a bit and run some teaching from her mentor spirit who will gradually coalesce as the tradition firms up.
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