Full Version: Tradition.
Okay I'm running an SR game (natch) and one of the characters has just awakened as a Mystic Adept, the player is new to the game and so has no set ideas about how it all works or what she wants the character to be. She has a mentor spirit (moon maiden) and has so far only expresses adept powers, when she learns "proper" magic how does she/I determine her tradition I figure that it is determined by training/upbringing and she's a hispanic ex gang girl in Denver, she has had no real spiritual guidance in her life. Should it just be down to who trains her new talents?
Magic is shaped by it's users belief.
If (s(he believes it works because bugs bunny allows her to do it, then so be it.
Most stumble upon magic in an accidental manner.
Waving their hands around agitated and suddenly stuff happens.
Hmm, wonder if there's a connection here? I think i waved my hands like so, and i was in this kinda mood and thought like this and . . oh, it works if i get really into it O.o
If (s(he believes it works because bugs bunny allows her to do it, then so be it.
Most stumble upon magic in an accidental manner.
Waving their hands around agitated and suddenly stuff happens.
Hmm, wonder if there's a connection here? I think i waved my hands like so, and i was in this kinda mood and thought like this and . . oh, it works if i get really into it O.o
As Stahlseele said, it depends entirely on the user. If she is christian she might believe that her powers are a sign from God and thus become whatever that Tradition is called. Or if she is christian and is 'evil' she might think that Satan is taking an interest in her.
It could also be that she reads up on some of the different schools of magic and more or less decides that she wants to follow one of them, and gee howdy it would work for her. Or maybe she figures the moon has something to do with her powers (Being guided by the moon maiden and all) and so has her own tradition (Which I imagine would realistically be exceedingly common), perhaps with a 'only cast spells at night' geas.
Also, if the character isn't very spiritual, she might lean towards Hermetic or Chaos magic, as those two traditions have the least spirituality around them and both basically feel that you're talking about a new form of science.
It could also be that she reads up on some of the different schools of magic and more or less decides that she wants to follow one of them, and gee howdy it would work for her. Or maybe she figures the moon has something to do with her powers (Being guided by the moon maiden and all) and so has her own tradition (Which I imagine would realistically be exceedingly common), perhaps with a 'only cast spells at night' geas.
Also, if the character isn't very spiritual, she might lean towards Hermetic or Chaos magic, as those two traditions have the least spirituality around them and both basically feel that you're talking about a new form of science.
As it stands the character is in shock at being mystic...
The other party member is a (varient) Chaos Mage and may end up teaching her a bit, but I suspect she will be hooked up with a suitable teacher at some point.
The other party member is a (varient) Chaos Mage and may end up teaching her a bit, but I suspect she will be hooked up with a suitable teacher at some point.
Karoline: you make me think of a pratchett quote(paraphrased); wizards don't believe in gods, they know the gods exist, but BELIEVING in the gods would be like BELIEVING in Larry the blacksmith down the street.
Interesting that nurturing Moon Maiden chose the ganger. I guess that's why she's an ex-ganger.
As has been said, tradition is very much dependent on one's beliefs in how magic works. Those beliefs can certainly be influenced by one's teacher, but that can only go so far. There can be some drama when the student's path diverges from the teacher's. Or they might be incompatible from the start.
As has been said, tradition is very much dependent on one's beliefs in how magic works. Those beliefs can certainly be influenced by one's teacher, but that can only go so far. There can be some drama when the student's path diverges from the teacher's. Or they might be incompatible from the start.
UMT could be another path that may work as well.
Paths could shift over time - there might be a tradition that most people shift to after a certain period because they learn and improvise more and more until "oh, holy shit. when did I turn into a chaos mage/hermetic/shaman/insect magician/rasta?"
I suppose mentor spirits would vastly shift the way that someone thinks about their tradition, too. They might not know of their tradition, until someone finally takes a look and goes "oh, look, ANOTHER Aesyr." Or things might just.. come to them. A slightly easier way to do things. Etc.
I suppose mentor spirits would vastly shift the way that someone thinks about their tradition, too. They might not know of their tradition, until someone finally takes a look and goes "oh, look, ANOTHER Aesyr." Or things might just.. come to them. A slightly easier way to do things. Etc.
Keep in mind that a tradition is like (or in fact most of the time is) a religion for most mages. Finding a tradition should be a matter of figuring out for herself how she uses magic. If she's initiating, the things she sees on the metaplanes should both be heavily influenced by and heavily influence her ideas about the way the world works.
In Shadowrun, tradition gets you!
Little Denver Adept Grrrl, "I don't believe in Moon Maiden."
Moon Maiden, "That's ok, Moon Maiden believes in you."
Little Denver Adept Grrrl, "I don't believe in Moon Maiden."
Moon Maiden, "That's ok, Moon Maiden believes in you."
I did some research a while back and made several magic groups they are posted over in the Missions thread someplace. (ya can follow the link in my sig to them as well)
Out of all the ones listed I found that this tradition has some involvement with the moon in its belifes:
Hedge Witches (I named my group Havamal Incantations)
Feel free to to look them all over use what ya want you could maybe use the Wicca or Hermetic one I have too the Wicca one has nothing about the moon but the hermetic does it also is interested in the stars and sun so that's you or your players choice.
Out of all the ones listed I found that this tradition has some involvement with the moon in its belifes:
Hedge Witches (I named my group Havamal Incantations)
Feel free to to look them all over use what ya want you could maybe use the Wicca or Hermetic one I have too the Wicca one has nothing about the moon but the hermetic does it also is interested in the stars and sun so that's you or your players choice.
QUOTE (Casazil @ Feb 8 2010, 07:47 PM) 
I did some research a while back and made several magic groups they are posted over in the Missions thread someplace. (ya can follow the link in my sig to them as well)
Out of all the ones listed I found that this tradition has some involvement with the moon in its belifes:
Hedge Witches (I named my group Havamal Incantations)
Feel free to to look them all over use what ya want you could maybe use the Wicca or Hermetic one I have too the Wicca one has nothing about the moon but the hermetic does it also is interested in the stars and sun so that's you or your players choice.
Out of all the ones listed I found that this tradition has some involvement with the moon in its belifes:
Hedge Witches (I named my group Havamal Incantations)
Feel free to to look them all over use what ya want you could maybe use the Wicca or Hermetic one I have too the Wicca one has nothing about the moon but the hermetic does it also is interested in the stars and sun so that's you or your players choice.
Many Wiccans/pagans I know work with moon deities, as these are very common most of the religious linked traditions will have some possibility.
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Feb 8 2010, 07:20 PM)
In Shadowrun, tradition gets you!
Little Denver Adept Grrrl, "I don't believe in Moon Maiden."
Moon Maiden, "That's ok, Moon Maiden believes in you."
Little Denver Adept Grrrl, "I don't believe in Moon Maiden."
Moon Maiden, "That's ok, Moon Maiden believes in you."
I can see that conversation happening, she's already almost told the to mentor spirits that approached her to leave her alone.
DireRadiant is correct. While the story is 'your belief shapes your magic', it's really the other way around. And why not? People believe what they see. If you happen to be successful doing hermetic magic, it's what you believe works. If your guardian spirit comes down and tells you straight out 'this is how things are work' and goes on to prove it, clearly then THAT is what you believe.
It doesn't matter what the character believes in. Many are touched by traditions they feel are false or wicked. The spirits are wise in their ways, and sometimes give their unlikely gifts with the intent of teaching. Don't be afraid to give her a tradition which is in conflict with her own morals and upbringing. No one said magic would be easy.
It doesn't matter what the character believes in. Many are touched by traditions they feel are false or wicked. The spirits are wise in their ways, and sometimes give their unlikely gifts with the intent of teaching. Don't be afraid to give her a tradition which is in conflict with her own morals and upbringing. No one said magic would be easy.
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 8 2010, 04:10 PM)
DireRadiant is correct. While the story is 'your belief shapes your magic', it's really the other way around. And why not? People believe what they see. If you happen to be successful doing hermetic magic, it's what you believe works. If your guardian spirit comes down and tells you straight out 'this is how things are work' and goes on to prove it, clearly then THAT is what you believe.
It doesn't matter what the character believes in. Many are touched by traditions they feel are false or wicked. The spirits are wise in their ways, and sometimes give their unlikely gifts with the intent of teaching. Don't be afraid to give her a tradition which is in conflict with her own morals and upbringing. No one said magic would be easy.
It doesn't matter what the character believes in. Many are touched by traditions they feel are false or wicked. The spirits are wise in their ways, and sometimes give their unlikely gifts with the intent of teaching. Don't be afraid to give her a tradition which is in conflict with her own morals and upbringing. No one said magic would be easy.
QFT...Grandfather Coyote says "I told you it'd be fun...I never said it would be fun for you!"(grin)
Choosing a tradition is simple.
Out of character: The player chooses one. Simple. Ideally, it should be one appropriate for the character concept.
In character: A tradition is the character's way of rationalizing their gift, working with it, and making magic happen. It should fit the character, or be compatable with the character's morals enough to grow into. As a GM, you should absolutely NOT be afraid to throw away the fluff and the background of a tradition(The character's not norse? Oh no! that doesn't work! Fuck that.) if it fits. Borrow a page from latent emerging from unwired, and have your character use double their magic to resist drain until they find a tradition.(Its still 1, right? Just tell them two dice for now. Now they have an incentive to find a tradition) Perhaps have the character's mentor spirit introduce various spirits. Fire, earth, air and the like. See which one the player is drawn too, and have the maiden show the character how to summon one. Do this again a little later, and compare those two spirit types and one of the character's stats to the traditions in street magic and the digital grimoire. Suddenly, you're going to have a real short list of fitting traditions for your player. Pick one, and you're good to go. The rites and teaching of that tradition can come later, as the character discovers their talent.
Out of character: The player chooses one. Simple. Ideally, it should be one appropriate for the character concept.
In character: A tradition is the character's way of rationalizing their gift, working with it, and making magic happen. It should fit the character, or be compatable with the character's morals enough to grow into. As a GM, you should absolutely NOT be afraid to throw away the fluff and the background of a tradition(The character's not norse? Oh no! that doesn't work! Fuck that.) if it fits. Borrow a page from latent emerging from unwired, and have your character use double their magic to resist drain until they find a tradition.(Its still 1, right? Just tell them two dice for now. Now they have an incentive to find a tradition) Perhaps have the character's mentor spirit introduce various spirits. Fire, earth, air and the like. See which one the player is drawn too, and have the maiden show the character how to summon one. Do this again a little later, and compare those two spirit types and one of the character's stats to the traditions in street magic and the digital grimoire. Suddenly, you're going to have a real short list of fitting traditions for your player. Pick one, and you're good to go. The rites and teaching of that tradition can come later, as the character discovers their talent.
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Feb 8 2010, 04:52 PM)
Choosing a tradition is simple.
Out of character: The player chooses one. Simple. Ideally, it should be one appropriate for the character concept.
In character: A tradition is the character's way of rationalizing their gift, working with it, and making magic happen. It should fit the character, or be compatable with the character's morals enough to grow into. As a GM, you should absolutely NOT be afraid to throw away the fluff and the background of a tradition(The character's not norse? Oh no! that doesn't work! Fuck that.) if it fits. Borrow a page from latent emerging from unwired, and have your character use double their magic to resist drain until they find a tradition.(Its still 1, right? Just tell them two dice for now. Now they have an incentive to find a tradition) Perhaps have the character's mentor spirit introduce various spirits. Fire, earth, air and the like. See which one the player is drawn too, and have the maiden show the character how to summon one. Do this again a little later, and compare those two spirit types and one of the character's stats to the traditions in street magic and the digital grimoire. Suddenly, you're going to have a real short list of fitting traditions for your player. Pick one, and you're good to go. The rites and teaching of that tradition can come later, as the character discovers their talent.
Out of character: The player chooses one. Simple. Ideally, it should be one appropriate for the character concept.
In character: A tradition is the character's way of rationalizing their gift, working with it, and making magic happen. It should fit the character, or be compatable with the character's morals enough to grow into. As a GM, you should absolutely NOT be afraid to throw away the fluff and the background of a tradition(The character's not norse? Oh no! that doesn't work! Fuck that.) if it fits. Borrow a page from latent emerging from unwired, and have your character use double their magic to resist drain until they find a tradition.(Its still 1, right? Just tell them two dice for now. Now they have an incentive to find a tradition) Perhaps have the character's mentor spirit introduce various spirits. Fire, earth, air and the like. See which one the player is drawn too, and have the maiden show the character how to summon one. Do this again a little later, and compare those two spirit types and one of the character's stats to the traditions in street magic and the digital grimoire. Suddenly, you're going to have a real short list of fitting traditions for your player. Pick one, and you're good to go. The rites and teaching of that tradition can come later, as the character discovers their talent.
Sounds good except for the "double your magic" part. Willpower is the global drain resist stat, magic is never used to resist drain
Thanks for the ideas so far guys.
I think I may go with Udoshi's ideas, the player should enjoy that.
I think I may go with Udoshi's ideas, the player should enjoy that.
QUOTE (Patrick the Gnome @ Feb 8 2010, 03:07 PM)
Sounds good except for the "double your magic" part. Willpower is the global drain resist stat, magic is never used to resist drain
Oops. My bad. Easy fix, tho. Just use straight willpower until another stat is decided upon.
Also - since your character is awakening as a mystic adept, you should consider houseruling mystic adepts. Have them split their magic into two distinct Magic stats. Adept Magic and Spellcasting Magic. Start each at one, and have the player raise them seperately.
In 4th anniversary, which I assume you're playing, magic is -seriously- expensive to raise. 6->7 is 35 karma. And thats not even counting initiation. Mysadepts raise their magic, and then choose which point to devote it too. Skip that shit, or you may find your player losing interest in things arcane because it advances so slow, and they're starting from -one- anyway. Throw the player a bone. Yes, they need to raise them seperately, but it will save headaches with recordkeeping/ keeping the adept side and the spell side seperate. But the player will, overall, be happier and more in control of how they develop. Yes, they could potentially have both at 5, but that's a hundred and forty karma. So simply limit their total points to the usual Magic(6)-essence+initiation limit - or don't worry about it. They're unlikely to get that far.
Its basically to limit the 'Ugh. I need to spend 45 karma AND initiate to get one more dice on spellcasting tests? Eff that. *gets automatics 7 and aptitude for cheaper*'. Rating x 5 attributes in 4thA kind of hose awakened characters, and its something to be mindful for your newly awakened.
In 4th anniversary, which I assume you're playing, magic is -seriously- expensive to raise. 6->7 is 35 karma. And thats not even counting initiation. Mysadepts raise their magic, and then choose which point to devote it too. Skip that shit, or you may find your player losing interest in things arcane because it advances so slow, and they're starting from -one- anyway. Throw the player a bone. Yes, they need to raise them seperately, but it will save headaches with recordkeeping/ keeping the adept side and the spell side seperate. But the player will, overall, be happier and more in control of how they develop. Yes, they could potentially have both at 5, but that's a hundred and forty karma. So simply limit their total points to the usual Magic(6)-essence+initiation limit - or don't worry about it. They're unlikely to get that far.
Its basically to limit the 'Ugh. I need to spend 45 karma AND initiate to get one more dice on spellcasting tests? Eff that. *gets automatics 7 and aptitude for cheaper*'. Rating x 5 attributes in 4thA kind of hose awakened characters, and its something to be mindful for your newly awakened.
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Feb 8 2010, 11:13 PM)
Also - since your character is awakening as a mystic adept, you should consider houseruling mystic adepts. Have them split their magic into two distinct Magic stats. Adept Magic and Spellcasting Magic. Start each at one, and have the player raise them seperately.
In 4th anniversary, which I assume you're playing, magic is -seriously- expensive to raise. 6->7 is 35 karma. And thats not even counting initiation. Mysadepts raise their magic, and then choose which point to devote it too. Skip that shit, or you may find your player losing interest in things arcane because it advances so slow, and they're starting from -one- anyway. Throw the player a bone. Yes, they need to raise them seperately, but it will save headaches with recordkeeping/ keeping the adept side and the spell side seperate. But the player will, overall, be happier and more in control of how they develop. Yes, they could potentially have both at 5, but that's a hundred and forty karma. So simply limit their total points to the usual Magic(6)-essence+initiation limit - or don't worry about it. They're unlikely to get that far.
Its basically to limit the 'Ugh. I need to spend 45 karma AND initiate to get one more dice on spellcasting tests? Eff that. *gets automatics 7 and aptitude for cheaper*'. Rating x 5 attributes in 4thA kind of hose awakened characters, and its something to be mindful for your newly awakened.
In 4th anniversary, which I assume you're playing, magic is -seriously- expensive to raise. 6->7 is 35 karma. And thats not even counting initiation. Mysadepts raise their magic, and then choose which point to devote it too. Skip that shit, or you may find your player losing interest in things arcane because it advances so slow, and they're starting from -one- anyway. Throw the player a bone. Yes, they need to raise them seperately, but it will save headaches with recordkeeping/ keeping the adept side and the spell side seperate. But the player will, overall, be happier and more in control of how they develop. Yes, they could potentially have both at 5, but that's a hundred and forty karma. So simply limit their total points to the usual Magic(6)-essence+initiation limit - or don't worry about it. They're unlikely to get that far.
Its basically to limit the 'Ugh. I need to spend 45 karma AND initiate to get one more dice on spellcasting tests? Eff that. *gets automatics 7 and aptitude for cheaper*'. Rating x 5 attributes in 4thA kind of hose awakened characters, and its something to be mindful for your newly awakened.
One house rule I use mostly fixes the higher magic problem, I treat racial mods and initiation as bonuses that you basically ignore for advancement so you have maxed magic and initiate you are effectively buying it up to 6 again each time. Thankfully most of my players don't min-max and play to concept, sure even with the educed costs they moan about the cost of increasing magic, but still they just save. "Hey get this other skill, you can afford it." I say helpfully. They just shake their heads and demand bigger rewards or more games.
I actually gave (well I charged her karma for it) her 2 magic as an adept to start with so she can have some nice tricks,including Astral Sight (I give MAs Astral sight for 0.5 as a bone for their karma sink nature) as she awoke during her first tempo high. She'll pick up her first spell casting point when she picks up her next magic.
QUOTE (Ophis @ Feb 8 2010, 08:13 PM)
you are effectively buying it up to 6 again each time.
Um, not quite sure what you're saying here, but just in case... the extra cost for raising an attribute to 6 only applies during character generation.
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Feb 8 2010, 03:20 PM)
In Shadowrun, tradition gets you!
Little Denver Adept Grrrl, "I don't believe in Moon Maiden."
Moon Maiden, "That's ok, Moon Maiden believes in you."
Little Denver Adept Grrrl, "I don't believe in Moon Maiden."
Moon Maiden, "That's ok, Moon Maiden believes in you."
Don't confuse tradition with totem. You gain a mentor spirit because that's who you are. Your tradition is defined by your understanding of the workings of the universe.
QUOTE (wind_in_the_stones @ Feb 8 2010, 10:47 PM)
Um, not quite sure what you're saying here, but just in case... the extra cost for raising an attribute to 6 only applies during character generation.
*snicker* Yeah, because coming up with 15 BP outside of character creation would be a real pain.
A character's understanding of magic could come from mass media too. If they watch a lot of "fantasy flicks" they'll be more inclined towards the traditional wizard (wands, books, and incantations, and such).
I myself prefer the "reality hacker" method,* because I'm such a code nut.
Also, XKCD.
*A GM I knew once modified a game to include magic and I tried more than one to get him to explain how magic worked in a fluff sense. How did my character think about magic? How do the NPCs think about magic, what sort of structure does it have? And all I got back was "you roll d10s, like any other skill."
I myself prefer the "reality hacker" method,* because I'm such a code nut.
Also, XKCD.
*A GM I knew once modified a game to include magic and I tried more than one to get him to explain how magic worked in a fluff sense. How did my character think about magic? How do the NPCs think about magic, what sort of structure does it have? And all I got back was "you roll d10s, like any other skill."
QUOTE (wind_in_the_stones @ Feb 9 2010, 03:47 AM)
Um, not quite sure what you're saying here, but just in case... the extra cost for raising an attribute to 6 only applies during character generation.
Basically I take away racial mods and initiate level from the relevant stats before working out karma cost. IE an elf tak Cha from 7-8 cost 30 Karma not 40 (racial mod 4), and Grade 4 Initiate treats his magic as 4 less for costing purposes so going 8 to 9 costs 25 karma (effectively 4-5). It keeps costs down to just pricey rather than Good god.
QUOTE (Ophis @ Feb 9 2010, 02:46 AM)
Basically I take away racial mods and initiate level from the relevant stats before working out karma cost. IE an elf tak Cha from 7-8 cost 30 Karma not 40 (racial mod 4), and Grade 4 Initiate treats his magic as 4 less for costing purposes so going 8 to 9 costs 25 karma (effectively 4-5). It keeps costs down to just pricey rather than Good god.
Hmm, that's actually a fairly good idea. I've seen that before with ideas to help balance karmagen by including a karma cost to race, but buying stats before racial bonuses applied (but after penalties) so that it didn't cost half a troll's karma to raise his body and strength two points.
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 9 2010, 12:10 AM)
If I ever awakened, that is totally the style I would go with.
It is important to notice though that most 'wizard' types are basically this. They operate under a 'if I do X, I can make Y happen, but if I do X with this extra twist I can make Z happen' sort of system. Very structured, very code like really (I chant 'blargal smuut' and wiggle my fingers and a fireball appears). Hermetics operate under this theory, and it is very similar to the one that Chaos Mages (I have no idea why the structured, logical, and reality hacker type tradition got the Chaos moniker) follow. Main difference is that Hermetics got caught up in alot of the 'look ma, I'm a wizard' trappings and the Chaos Mages decided to drop that.
QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 9 2010, 08:29 AM)
(I have no idea why the structured, logical, and reality hacker type tradition got the Chaos moniker)
Me either.
The only thing I can think of is some connection to "universal entropy" and tapping into that.
I, of course, have read So You Want To Be A Wizard and would like to see a mage on the other side of that entropy line....
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 9 2010, 01:56 PM)
Me either.
The only thing I can think of is some connection to "universal entropy" and tapping into that.
I, of course, have read So You Want To Be A Wizard and would like to see a mage on the other side of that entropy line....
The only thing I can think of is some connection to "universal entropy" and tapping into that.
I, of course, have read So You Want To Be A Wizard and would like to see a mage on the other side of that entropy line....
Despite having had some practise as/with Chaos Mages (local occult group) I'm not sure. I suspect it has something to do with the absolute freedom and being outside a specific structured form. I'll ask a friend.
As said I asked my practising Chaos Mage friend and this is what he sent
So there you go.
QUOTE (Jez and Wikpedia)
How-do,
It's actually rather arbitrary, to be honest, and it should be pointed out that it has nothing particularly to do with the mythological idea of chaos (although that is important to some individual practitioners). I've heard it from Pete Carroll, and people have largely snipped his words to make the following extract from the wikipedia page on the subject...
The first edition of Liber Null does not include the term "chaos magic", but only refers to magic or "the magic art" in general.[4] Texts from this period consistently claim to state principles universal to magic, as opposed to a new specific style or tradition of magic, and describe their innovations as efforts to rid magic of superstitious and religious ideas. Psychonaut uses the label "individual sorcery as taught by the IOT".[4]
Chaos came to be part of this movement defined as "the 'thing' responsible for the origin and continued action of events[...]. It could as well be called God or Tao, but the name Chaos is virtually meaningless and free from the childish, anthropomorphic ideas of religion."[4] The Symbol of Chaos used to signify it was apparently, but not explicitly, lifted from the fantasy novels of Michael Moorcock. Carroll wrote that the chaotic aspect of this magic aims for "psychological anarchy[...] The aim is to produce inspiration and enlightenment through disordering our belief structures."[4]
4. Liber Null & Psychonaut, 1987. Peter Carroll, ISBN 0-87728-639-6
-----
I'd add to this that there was a lot of interest in the mathematical concepts of chaos, or as we are more likely to call them now, non-linear dynamics, inspired particularly by James Gleick's popular book 'Chaos'.
It could have been called results magic, it could have been called pragmatic magic, but the particular blend of magic, art and science just clicked with the ideas about chaos circulating at the time. Now of course some folk take many parts of the movement as a virtual religion, which was never really the point!
The key of the whole thing, as Pete put down clearly in 'Liber Kaos', is simply that one becomes a magician by realising that belief is a tool, and then acting on that realisation.
It's actually rather arbitrary, to be honest, and it should be pointed out that it has nothing particularly to do with the mythological idea of chaos (although that is important to some individual practitioners). I've heard it from Pete Carroll, and people have largely snipped his words to make the following extract from the wikipedia page on the subject...
The first edition of Liber Null does not include the term "chaos magic", but only refers to magic or "the magic art" in general.[4] Texts from this period consistently claim to state principles universal to magic, as opposed to a new specific style or tradition of magic, and describe their innovations as efforts to rid magic of superstitious and religious ideas. Psychonaut uses the label "individual sorcery as taught by the IOT".[4]
Chaos came to be part of this movement defined as "the 'thing' responsible for the origin and continued action of events[...]. It could as well be called God or Tao, but the name Chaos is virtually meaningless and free from the childish, anthropomorphic ideas of religion."[4] The Symbol of Chaos used to signify it was apparently, but not explicitly, lifted from the fantasy novels of Michael Moorcock. Carroll wrote that the chaotic aspect of this magic aims for "psychological anarchy[...] The aim is to produce inspiration and enlightenment through disordering our belief structures."[4]
4. Liber Null & Psychonaut, 1987. Peter Carroll, ISBN 0-87728-639-6
-----
I'd add to this that there was a lot of interest in the mathematical concepts of chaos, or as we are more likely to call them now, non-linear dynamics, inspired particularly by James Gleick's popular book 'Chaos'.
It could have been called results magic, it could have been called pragmatic magic, but the particular blend of magic, art and science just clicked with the ideas about chaos circulating at the time. Now of course some folk take many parts of the movement as a virtual religion, which was never really the point!
The key of the whole thing, as Pete put down clearly in 'Liber Kaos', is simply that one becomes a magician by realising that belief is a tool, and then acting on that realisation.
So there you go.
Oh, I see, they are referring to the Chaos that created the idea of...well, everything. Not chaos as in disorder, entropy, or randomness, but the concept that allows for other concepts to exist.
Which makes perfect sense.
Edit:
Exploiting Madelbugs of the universe. Essentially.
Which makes perfect sense.
Edit:
Exploiting Madelbugs of the universe. Essentially.
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 10 2010, 12:16 AM)
Oh, I see, they are referring to the Chaos that created the idea of...well, everything. Not chaos as in disorder, entropy, or randomness, but the concept that allows for other concepts to exist.
Which makes perfect sense.
Edit:
Exploiting Madelbugs of the universe. Essentially.
Which makes perfect sense.
Edit:
Exploiting Madelbugs of the universe. Essentially.
Several old Mediterranean religions/mythologies talk about the creator deities/world emerging from the form Chaos.
To OP.
I suggest reading the published traditions.. 2 in SR4a and more in street magic. Present the player w/ ones suitable to the characters background/outlook. I also suggest avoiding possession traditions until you're more intimately familiar w/ the magic rules. (or just tweaking the tradition to change 1 spirit type, or change from possession to materialization).
Then choosing an appropriate one. As you're evidently new and having issues. You don't want to get into custom crafted traditions. Also there's another problem for you as a GM... how does the tradition fit into the game. The single biggest problem w/ a custom tradition is that there's nowhere to buy spells or instructors from!
Some of the things like allowing MA reduced costs are broken. MA's are the single most powerfull type you can get, the price they pay for this is that it costs them more to advance their magical abilities. I can see giving them astral perception for free, (or allowing it as a metamagic on initiation). But otherwise I'd limit that. Also one thing which can really help a MA is a power focus (it adds to both adept and magician powers based on magic...) A little karma expensive but far less so than raising the magical stats in question. (IE: common combat monkey MA trick is to get power focus and health sustaining focus and use increase reflexes spell over the adept power).
I suggest reading the published traditions.. 2 in SR4a and more in street magic. Present the player w/ ones suitable to the characters background/outlook. I also suggest avoiding possession traditions until you're more intimately familiar w/ the magic rules. (or just tweaking the tradition to change 1 spirit type, or change from possession to materialization).
Then choosing an appropriate one. As you're evidently new and having issues. You don't want to get into custom crafted traditions. Also there's another problem for you as a GM... how does the tradition fit into the game. The single biggest problem w/ a custom tradition is that there's nowhere to buy spells or instructors from!
Some of the things like allowing MA reduced costs are broken. MA's are the single most powerfull type you can get, the price they pay for this is that it costs them more to advance their magical abilities. I can see giving them astral perception for free, (or allowing it as a metamagic on initiation). But otherwise I'd limit that. Also one thing which can really help a MA is a power focus (it adds to both adept and magician powers based on magic...) A little karma expensive but far less so than raising the magical stats in question. (IE: common combat monkey MA trick is to get power focus and health sustaining focus and use increase reflexes spell over the adept power).
QUOTE (Ophis @ Feb 10 2010, 07:31 PM)
Several old Mediterranean religions/mythologies talk about the creator deities/world emerging from the form Chaos.
Judo-christian mythology also says that in the beginning the earth basically was chaos, until the guy upstairs snapped his fingers...
A bit more on topic: Can an Awakened actually convert to another tradition? I remember that Sam Verner became a dog shaman without wanting it or even believing in magic, but the current canon seem to be that whatever one believes in is his tradition. So what happens if somebody changes his belief and now follows His Holy Noodliness from the bottom of his heart?
QUOTE (Falconer @ Feb 10 2010, 10:11 PM)
To OP.
I suggest reading the published traditions.. 2 in SR4a and more in street magic. Present the player w/ ones suitable to the characters background/outlook. I also suggest avoiding possession traditions until you're more intimately familiar w/ the magic rules. (or just tweaking the tradition to change 1 spirit type, or change from possession to materialization).
Then choosing an appropriate one. As you're evidently new and having issues. You don't want to get into custom crafted traditions. Also there's another problem for you as a GM... how does the tradition fit into the game. The single biggest problem w/ a custom tradition is that there's nowhere to buy spells or instructors from!
Some of the things like allowing MA reduced costs are broken. MA's are the single most powerfull type you can get, the price they pay for this is that it costs them more to advance their magical abilities. I can see giving them astral perception for free, (or allowing it as a metamagic on initiation). But otherwise I'd limit that. Also one thing which can really help a MA is a power focus (it adds to both adept and magician powers based on magic...) A little karma expensive but far less so than raising the magical stats in question. (IE: common combat monkey MA trick is to get power focus and health sustaining focus and use increase reflexes spell over the adept power).
I suggest reading the published traditions.. 2 in SR4a and more in street magic. Present the player w/ ones suitable to the characters background/outlook. I also suggest avoiding possession traditions until you're more intimately familiar w/ the magic rules. (or just tweaking the tradition to change 1 spirit type, or change from possession to materialization).
Then choosing an appropriate one. As you're evidently new and having issues. You don't want to get into custom crafted traditions. Also there's another problem for you as a GM... how does the tradition fit into the game. The single biggest problem w/ a custom tradition is that there's nowhere to buy spells or instructors from!
Some of the things like allowing MA reduced costs are broken. MA's are the single most powerfull type you can get, the price they pay for this is that it costs them more to advance their magical abilities. I can see giving them astral perception for free, (or allowing it as a metamagic on initiation). But otherwise I'd limit that. Also one thing which can really help a MA is a power focus (it adds to both adept and magician powers based on magic...) A little karma expensive but far less so than raising the magical stats in question. (IE: common combat monkey MA trick is to get power focus and health sustaining focus and use increase reflexes spell over the adept power).
I'm hardly new, I have three times your post count!
Also I've been running SR for over 15 years, since I've never done this before (latent awakening) I figured I could get some interesting ideas by posting about this. I've done custom traditions (celtic berzerk/warp spasm tradition) and they worked out well for me. I'm not worried about Power Foci as I play heavily with focus addiction and I'm not worried about adept powers that get boosted by magic (if it granted PPs then I'd worry). MAs are good and very cool, but hardly the nastiest thing out there (excepting unlimited karma) Anything they can do a mage can do to, however they have great versatility which is a definite plus.
Don't go by post count... go by age... I rarely post much. But you're right I made a mistake, for some reason reading your post I thought you were new and after reading the thread, didn't go back to recheck. If it helps, I cut my teeth on SR1st.
That's typically the problem w/ the MA... they can do well pretty much anything and everything, and it's very easy to lose focus and try to do too much, to become a jack of all trades and not be good enough at any of them to be usefull. And, generally when people suggest reduced costs for this... it's a little unfair to the magicians and adepts as a lot of the adept powers can be mimiced w/ spells... and a lot of adept powers aren't done well w/ spells. So by carefully picking the best of both worlds... generally they can make out pretty well, even w/ the advancement costs.
IMO: the biggest weakness is their inability to project, the necessity of spending 1full PP on astral perception if you want to be able to clean up spell signatures after yourself. Though projection can be obtained through a great form w/ the astral gateway power, w/some initiation and resource expenditure.
That's typically the problem w/ the MA... they can do well pretty much anything and everything, and it's very easy to lose focus and try to do too much, to become a jack of all trades and not be good enough at any of them to be usefull. And, generally when people suggest reduced costs for this... it's a little unfair to the magicians and adepts as a lot of the adept powers can be mimiced w/ spells... and a lot of adept powers aren't done well w/ spells. So by carefully picking the best of both worlds... generally they can make out pretty well, even w/ the advancement costs.
IMO: the biggest weakness is their inability to project, the necessity of spending 1full PP on astral perception if you want to be able to clean up spell signatures after yourself. Though projection can be obtained through a great form w/ the astral gateway power, w/some initiation and resource expenditure.
Any discounts I apply go across the board (except the Astral sight one natch), that way they stay fair.
I think my plan will be to chat with the player OC a bit and run some teaching from her mentor spirit who will gradually coalesce as the tradition firms up.
I think my plan will be to chat with the player OC a bit and run some teaching from her mentor spirit who will gradually coalesce as the tradition firms up.
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