Do what you've gotta do, but don't act like everyone else is agreeing with you -- least of all me -- while you do so. Capoeira is already "penalized" by having a different set of bonuses than other martial arts. Tacking on an outright penalty to it is just being a dick to your players that might like the look of it. If your players are fine with you being a dick because you, personally, don't like a given martial art, that's fine.

But don't pretend what you're doing is fair or reasonable, unless you're automatically slapping the same penalties on plenty of other martial arts for not being "direct" enough for your liking. There's an awful lot of stuff being taught in modern Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and various Kung Fu schools that is more "art" than "martial," just like in Capoeira.

Says you. Plus, how are you to know what developments and innovations have been added to the style by 2072? I don't like your houserule for the same reason I wouldn't like it if a gun enthusiast GM decided to slap an additional recoil modifier on my Predator IV anytime I don't explicitly say, "I assume the correct shooting stance and posture." Even assuming you're right about capoeira (and that's a big-ass assumption), there's such a thing as too much realism.

/sigh So true, so true.


I agree, only I would have tried to say it in a nicer way. On the other hand, sometimes there is a certain quality for brutal straighforwardness.

Not really, I mean it obviously depends on the school, and I'm not a fan of TKD, but Capoeira is and has always been a grossly inefficient fighting syste. It requires so much set up for attacks and the rythm so vital to it is very easilly disrupted because of the way the techniques are performed. I used to compete in amateur MMA events and my favorite style to fight was Capoeira because training in Karate, JKD and a smattering of techniques from other disciplines I was familiar with counter striking and was very good at using my speed and reach (I'm just a tad on the lanky side, not enough to be obvious but I usually have an inch or two of reach on someone the same hieght) to interrupt my opponent's techniques, in effect I was performing an unarmed version of fencing's stop thrust. Capoeira in the context of why it developed is a fascinating style and for what it was designed for quite effective. Slaves that used it to attack their owners had the element of surprise in their favor and where likely dealing with someone that had minimal training in hand to hand fighting, by this time in history pistol and rifle skills had mainly supplanted the sword in the western worl, and at best most slave masters and owners where familiar with boxing which has it's own issues as a comprehensive fighting system.

I would slap such modifiers on any martial art that is more about gymnastics than actual fighting, yes.

I like realistic games, that's how I run them. I don't give players breaks because they like the look of something. I don't care if it was super cool in some Van Damme movie. If you want to do flashy Hollywood action b-movie stuff, you're getting penalties.

Explosives don't make fireballs in my games either, and people don't fly through the air when hit by shotguns. If you want that and fighters doing windmills, that's your choice.

And any good gamemaster penalize players when they try to pull stupid shit. If you call that being a dick, then I'm a dick. In your campaign, maybe "stupid shit" is doing stuff that doesn't look good. In my campaigns, stupid shit is doing stuff that doesn't work.

If your definition of "stupid shit" is "picking a martial art the GM doesn't like," then I guess you think you're being pretty reasonable.

*shrugs* Anyways, have fun. You're obviously not going to change your mind, so knock yourself out.

Under your example then, would you allow someone the use of Capoeira in place of acrobatics or dodge?

Someone mentioned First Aid - Sports Injuries and Combat Wounds and how one almost never applies and the other always does. Not true. It's all perspective.

Sports injuries would include sprains, breaks, tears, bruises, dislocations, punctures, lacerations, and fractures. Not to mention head trauma. Versus Combat Wounds would include punctures, lacerations, hemorrhaging (including hypovolemic shock), burns, GSWs, and the like. I would argue that you're equally likely to need either of those specializations.

There are no useless skills, only useless imaginations.

I like you.

Using MMA as a measuring stick for anything other than the sport called "MMA" is inaccurate.
Grappling techniques such a Brazilian Jujitsu which are highly effective in a sporting match are
far less useful in a brawl.
Likewise a fast, strong, and well placed kick is effective regardless of the style it comes from.

I have seen my share of naive Capoeiristas who don't know the difference between a Roda and a fight,
but a naive practitioner doesn't make the style bad.

Again, in your opinion. By RAW, capoeira is a legitimate and effective martial art.

I guess Sangre y Acero, Carromeleg and Wildcat also get penalties in your game, because they're completely made up. Personally, I'd just rule that the sixth world version of Capoeira is much improved and deadlier than it was sixty years prior.

You're confusing qualities and specializations.

By RAW, Arsenal pg. 156 about martial arts specialization:

At the gamemaster’s discretion, this specialization may not
apply to all situations, if he feels the circumstances fall outside of
the style’s reach. For example, the gamemaster may decide that a
character with the Unarmed Combat skill and the Martial Arts
specialization in the style of Boxing may not apply his specialization
bonus when grappling with an opponent on the ground, as the boxing
style does not normally encompass groundfi ghting techniques.

Capoeira applies to playing in a roda (this is what they call it apparently, playing), moving to the rhythm, doing athletic moves. It doesn't apply to any sort of actual fighting.

It is really simple. If you've specialized in a martial arts that don't emphasize grappling, you're not getting your +2 dice for grappling. This is RAW. It follows naturally that if you've specialized in a martial arts that don't emphasize full contact sparring, you're not going to see your +2 dice in stand up fights.

I'd let a capeoira spec roll his full Unarmed +2 dice to impress people on a dance floor though.

The bonus from those styles would obviously apply with respect to their backstory.

If capoeira in 60 years is different that capoeira today, then it would apply under different circumstances. But if the idea is that people just somehow figured out how to make dance moves and handstands be effective in combat, that's not going to work. But if someone said that a branch of capoeira emerged as a result of the mediocre performance in full contact tournaments, and this new capoeira brutalis focused on sparring and dropped the musical and gymnastic displays but retained the feints, spinning backkicks, sweeps and other signature capoeira moves, that's a different story. That's how I figure someone with Capoeira Qualities would fight.

Sorry but for Me your posts read like:
"I dont't like Capoeira so I'll give it a neg.Modifier.I don't care what the rules say or what others say,I don't care about reality (like the Youtube link or the Wikipedia Link )"
I don't like that kind of Narrowmindedness
This makes discussing with you impossible

Jahtahey
Medicineman

Here's a video of a guy really good at slapping: http://www.yourdailymedia.com/media/117621.../Knock_Out_Slap

Is that enough for Unarmed Combat (Slapping +2) to be viable?

You have one video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0KfQE2-ZqA) of one guy getting what might be a very lucky kick in. What sort of record does this guy have? I tried searching on his name and couldn't fint that or any more videos of him winning fights with this style. Nothing indicates that it was anything but a fluke against a very unskilled opponent, who had no clue what he was doing. Try looking at the opponent's "blocks", he extends his fingers and reaches out and down towards the punch/kick like trying to catch it, he jerks his upper body and head back. That is totally amateurish, it is an instinctive reaction when you're scared of getting hit but it makes you easier to hit, and you're at great risk of damaging your fingers by trying to block kicks with your fingers. That is just not how it is done - if someone else here has sparring experience, please look at that video and give your opinion of his level of skill.

Are there other guys doing capoeira doing well in tournaments?

The obvious absense of capoeira tournament success, the accounts of people finding it easy to fight people using capoeira, the style's neglect of focusing on full contact training, the emphasis on rhythm and acrobatics. It all points to "not combat effective".

Sorry mate, but it is you who are ignoring the massive amount of evidence and relying on just a single video of someone using capoeira KOing a total amateur.

Sorry mate, but it is you who are ignoring the massive amount of evidence and relying on just a single video of someone using capoeira KOing a total amateur.
Sorry but you wrongly assume that this one Video is my only Source

It all points to "not combat effective".
Nope
It may be "less effective" but a lot of other MAs are the same
As I was Posting before
You can Go ahead and make Houserules but be prepared for a Lot of them and also alot of arguing and discussing it with people that know about MA
because if You start to modify Capoeira than you have to Modify Each and every Martial Art (even Fictional ones lkike Sangre Y Aceiro or Firefight) compared to each and every other MA
everything else would just be (Willkühr) GMs FIAT ? (I don't know the correct english Word...an Arbitrary Decision)

HokaHey
medicineman

Dick.

Try to figure out why.

If it isn't your only source, I'm very curious why you chose to refer to it, when it so obviously says nothing about the effectiveness of capoeira since it is used against an opponent with no apparent fighting experience?

But ok, please give some other sources then. What capoeira fighters have succeeded with it? My googlefu suggests that some Andre Gusmao is the best capoeira fighter - I watched a few videos of him fighting, and I can't see he's using his capoeira. I guess he trained a lot of capoeira, and doesn't use it in the ring because it doesn't work.

I would be very interesting in seeing someone being able to use capoeira effectively, if you have any source showing that, bring it forward.

And this isn't a house rule, RAW clearly states that martial arts specialization bonus die don't apply for circumstances that fall outside of the style's reach. The only issue is, do you think capoeira applies to actual fights. In its current form, it very clearly doesn't.

Wow. Lots of M.A. Abstractions here today.

Smokeskin, SR is a fictional game. I myself have training in Aikido and Kung Fu since i was a teenager (i'm 28 now. OMG. i'll be 29 by friday. Fuck... ), and i can say from personal experience that a tournament match is VERY different than a brawl against oponents in a real setting. And the more direct approach to capoeira tends to be quite effective, as they DO have very strong legs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But that's beside my point. Are you going to penalize Aikido too? Because you have to be a SUPERIOR fighter to even try to use the holds and techniques on a real fight. All "Do" arts have a clear tendency toward forms and sport (that's why they are DO arts, and not "JUTSU") arts.

Now, AikiJUTSU is one of the meanest, most painful, cerebral methods of torture i've ever seen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) LOL.

Anyway, have fun. And i'd recommend Gurps Martial Arts instead of Shadowrun. In such system, the realm combat skills and the sport/form skills are different, and there is a -3 penalty from one to another. You should perhaps use this approach to your game, and place your "inneficient" martial arts as a new kind of knowledge skill, as something that is colourful and SOMETIMES useful, but not to be used in combat. It would even be fairest to the players, as they would be paying cheaper for something that IS less effective.

Yeah, you wouldn't get to use your dice from aikido either.

I'm not unfair to players unless they insist on it, since I have house rules for MA spec. They can pick in what situations they want it to apply, then pick a style that fits, or pick a style first and then select when the modifiers should apply.

That still doesn't mean they can choose capoeira and do handstand kicks in combat, or aikido and gently touch grown men on the wrist, and not get hit with penalties. That's like non-smartgun users wanting to shoot from the hip, that's going to land you a penalty too.

There's an awful lot of cops out there that'll be plenty surprised to learn you disapprove of pretty much their most common techniques. But, hey, you not only know better than the rulebooks, you know better than the hand to hand combat trainers at law enforcement agencies, too, right?

Yeah, and I wonder how much of a penatly boxing gets outside of the ring. Because the fact is boxers are going to fall apart as soon as they're presented with anything more complicated than a jab. At least that's what I believe from my exceedingly limited knowledge of boxing, and thus I must be 100% correct no matter what kind of evidence might be presented otherwise.

Seriously though, I think that boxing would have massive penalties because they really aren't used to things like kicks.

I think Smokeskin has a real problem here, and it's not predjudice against a martial art - it's not understanding the difference between having a Martial Arts positive Quality and having a martial arts specialization for Unarmed. In the above, he mentioned not allowing the Unarmed Specialization of capoeria in many situations, not that he'd disallow someone from taking the Quality and having the bonuses.

Right, but what he is saying is that the martial art capoeria is weaker than others, so he is going to penalize it. What other people are saying is 'every martial art is weaker than some other, are you going to map out some complex strong vs/weak vs chart for who is using what kind of MA against whom, taking into account MAs that you have no knowledge of because they don't exist?'.

In the real world I don't like your opinion so I will punish your imaginary role game play with penalties.