On the other hand the fact that armor does not usually stack applies only to worn armor. A possession spirit is not worn. The host and the spirit form a new entity with the boosted physical attributes, the spirit's mental and special attributes, ItNW etc. This new entity can of course wear armor.

In SR4A dermal plating does not state that it is cumulative with worn armor nor does Titanium Bone Lacing. So aren't they?

The only armor that explicitly states that it is not cumulative with worn armor is the Granite Shell from Runner's Companion.

Not in my book. There is no Critter that has Armor and Hardened Armor. The only difference between hardened and normal armor is that if the attack's DV does not exceed the Hardenend Armor Value(modified by AP), the attack bounces off and no soak roll need be made. If the Damage is greater, the target rolls Body+Hardened Armor+Armor+AP, should it have normal Armor form another source (worn armor, magic etc.)

Incorrect, Mystic armor (adept) is not worn...
Neither is the armor spell.

Both are clearly magical. Both indicate clearly that they stack and are cumulative with your worn armor total.

You have NOT established that hardened armor is NOT a seperate non-stacking armor total which is handled differently in damage resistance tests per the hardened armor power.


Dermal plating "confers a bonus to impact and ballistic armor".
I see your point on titanium... but that's probably going to be errata'ed since the bone lacing entry has (cumulative w/ worn armor in it). Talking with Ancient makes it clear that any errata to anything right now is a pipe dream. Though all bone lacing even if the armor it provides is only while naked, still provide non-armor bonus dice to armor soak tests.

Trolls in SR4a now list (cumulative w/ worn armor) under their natural armor.


I hold by my point, you have not demonstrably proved stacking sources of armor without wording to the effect that they stack or provide a bonus to existing armor.


Edit: just looked through running wild... the critter powers has not changed at all. The "armor" power is cumulative, the "Hardend armor" is not... so they have not changed the powers there.

You have not yet quoted where it says that armor other than worn armor is not cumulative unless stated otherwise. So since only the encumbrance rules (which only apply to worn armor) state that normally worn armor is not cumulative with other worn worn armor, there is no need to write that other armor is cumulative with worn armor. I don't know why they added this superfluous information on some entries and didn't on others.

Hardened armor "Otherwise, Hardened Armor provides both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating." it does not provide worn B/I armor, thus the encumbrance rule do not apply, and it stacks.

In which case, cumulative phrasing they use on all the clearly stacking sources is a complete waste of time... and they have no need to put it on anything at all and keep it off some other items.

Because everything stacks w/o limit to the worn armor total... Yeah right...


You also don't addressed the game balance problems which come up with for every point of possession force... you're adding 4 dice to the resistance tests FOR SURE (+1 bod & Rea... plus the hardened ItNW), plus potentially 2 more worn armor. (when it's rather easy to get a force 6-8 spirit if you know what you're doing).

Seems pretty clear to me the intent is that armor generally don't stack. And for sanity reasons, that makes a lot of sense.

Maybe you can argue you found a loop hole, but that's the best you can do. If the written rules aren't clear, the intent is.

Just like they did in some other places. Combat sense for instance comes to mind. The "to Reaction" part is entirely superfluous as well.


Look up the discussion about cyberlimb armor. Yes, armor from one limb stacks with armor from another one.


Right I didn't because I recall the question was if the calculation was RAW and not whether it is balanced. Sure a mage can summon a F 6-8 Spirit and get one or more net hits, but can he cope with up to 16(probably P) drain, which will come up eventually?
The main drawback about Possession without Channeling is that the Spirit controls the entity. So the player can give the character to the GM for the duration of the possession. The character is better off having the spirit possess one of the enemies even though this is more difficult.

@Smokeskin: Perceived intent is a highly subjective thing.

Sure, but in this case you have several mentions of armor generally not stacking, and you have specific mentions in cases of armor stacking. Not really highly subjective to think that they only wanted armor to stack where specifically mentioned.

@Falconer

As every other form of "natural" armour stacks with worn armour why not possession (once possessed the armour is a natural part of YOUR BODY, as you and the spirit are treated as a single entity). You need to prove it doesn't, or even just find a similar example where armour that is part of a creature doesn't stack with worn armour.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree here, falconer.

By your logic does the Armor Spell stack with Mystic Armor or Cyberware or Troll Skin? The spell's as well as the Power's description only states that they are cumulative with worn armor.

I can counter this directly.

Possession IS NOT NATURAL ARMOR. That is you making an fluffy distinction which is nowhere in the RAW. Possession is at best a form of magical armor, and I've already pointed out other magical armors include the operative wording while this one does not.

Natural armor is covered by the 'Armor' cirtter power! Armor power states, cumulative w/ worn armor.

Possession is ItNW which grants Hardened armor... which is an entirely different beast, which by the letter is not cumulative, but a seperate special armor total.

This is my point, people come up with fluff... it's natural... it's part of him... etc. and ignore the letter and what I believe is the intent of the rule. A mere force 3 spirit doing this adds 12 dice to resistance putting a weak mage on same footing as a full fledged street sam in many cases. (more if he suddenly grabs and wields something like a ballistic shield on top of it, going to 18 MORE dice... more than most characters roll to start with).


Dakka:
I WAS AROUND for the set of posts when Devs were going over the cyber armor. Guess what, THEY ERRATAED IT.. AND they even put in 'cumulative' in it in SR4a!!! That's another argument which does not hold water.

And don't give me 'hand hime to GM'... every possession tradition and it's brother almots always gets channeling as it's 1st or 2nd meta... which is easily done w/in a session or 3 of karma.

Obviously we have different ideas of the intent of the system. Though I have to point out I don't let the hardening effect include anything but the hardened armour itself. Hopefully someone in the designers will give us a clue to the intent of the armour rules. A simple what stacks with what guide would be usefully.

(emphasis added)

Here we can clearly see that if the summoner has his spirit possess his armor, he would gain the spirit's force added to his armor rating.

Even then, even if a spirit's ItNW does not stack with normal armor, you still have to punch through it in order for the target's normal armor to even matter, because it is still there.

Yeah? Why wouldn't the Armor Spell, Mystic Armor, Troll Skin, Cyber/Bio-ware, and Surge stack, except in cases where it says it doesn't? They say they "stack with normal armor," because otherwise we would be stuck with tiny, useless points of armor that only apply when naked. Since they are all modifiers to normal armor, that's what their description says. Otherwise a Troll can't benefit from Mystic Armor or the Armor spell?*



*(WARNING: might not be right in this case. This is my personal opinion, which might be wrong.)

Incorrect Neraph... another one which got batted down in another thread.

Exactly which piece of armor is possessed... the armor vest, the pants, the jacket... you got shot in the leg, no the hand, no the face (doesn't take aiming to bypass armor, normal shots are abstracted). No matter how much coverage you state, there's still holes in it... if YOU are possessed your entire being has it... armor does not. Armor is also abstracted (an actual helmet is much tougher than 1/2... it's only 1/2 because it's rarely hit compared to the torso).

ItNW does not necessarily means it stops bullets even. It only means bullets don't damage the material/spirit. If you possess a sheet on a laundry line it does not instantly become tougher than the side armor on a tank. It can just mean the bullets pass through the sheet (subject to the additional force in barrier armor rating), but the material is now stretchy and springy and the holes don't break the fibers as they pass through.

Actually, you're quite wrong on this. Or you're right, and you're going after a point other than the one I was making, which would still cause you to be wrong on the point I was talking about. So let's try it this way:

1)
a) You have armor.
b) You summon a possession spirit.
c) Your spirit possesses your armor.
d) Your armor rating is improved by the force of the spirit, but you do not get ItNW. Your armor does though, for attacks directed explicitly at them.

2)
a) You have armor.
b) You summon a possession spirit.
c) Your spirit possesses you.
d) You have your armor rating which remains unaffected by the spirit's rating, and you use either that or the spirit's ItNW, whichever is higher.
d1) If your normal armor is higher than the ItNW, you use your normal armor for Damage Resistance Tests. However, you still have to check for the ItNW Hardened effect, because even though it is not the highest armor available, it is still there and affecting you.
d2) If your spirit's ItNW is higher than your normal armor, you use the ItNW for Damage Resistance Tests. However, if something bypasses your ItNW, you use your normal armor, since it is still there.

EDIT: It should be noted that Shadowrun does not have specific damage locations outside the realm of GM call, so half of your argument is null and void.

Pretty much everybody and their dog has played Possesion spirits as adding armor. It's pretty clear that if the majority of players read the rules this way, that your argument is kinda goofy Falconer.

In fact, the way you state your argument leaves no room for discussion unless we can cite a specific entry.

"In Shadowrun 4th, the vehicles are powered by chocolate bars, cite an example or you are wrong."

Yeah, it's kinda like that.

It's called "Shifting the burden of proof." It happens quite frequently among fringe societies: IE: the Oort Cloud. A cloud of asteroids and meteors 300 AU (astronomical units) away that spits out comets to earth's solar system because our earth is supposed to be 4.7 billion years old and comets only have a lifespan of 30,000 years. We still have comets, so instead of rethinking the date, they came up with the Oort Cloud, which they have 0% evidence for. Here's where it ties in - the people who believe in the Oort Cloud have said "It's up to you to disprove the Oort Cloud," which means people who don't believe in it are supposed to be able to see every object within 100 AUs.

Now, the way it is supposed to work is if you come up with a theory, it is up to you to prove it. You have the idea, you have the Burden of Proof.

And for the record, I honestly think Falconer brought up some valid points.

EDIT: I am almost certain that the distance I gave for the Oort Cloud is wrong. The point is that it is so far away we can't see it.

Funny thing about Occam's Razor; what you are willing to put into it is what you're likely to get out of it. (Put in a possibility of faeries or auras, you occasionally get answers with faeries & auras. Put in "such things are stupid and unbelievable," and you never get faeries or auras out of the Razor.) Just random food for thought.

Neraph: I think you and I may have misunderstood each other there. Yes I agree, the armor is invulerable to a lot of damage, it has its protective rating enhanced accordingly, but the wearer does not gain that invulnerability. Personally i think the guy who suggested it had a great idea, especially for people w/o channeling.


As far as shifting the burden of proof... I disagree. In the past, pre-crash I've gone extensively through every source of armor. The cumulative with wording is notably present in almost every single one, excepting hardened. Yet you have people constantly arguing it stacks, when the text which makes it cumulative w/ worn armor is notably not present there. When you have people claiming... "but it's natural armor' or "it's magical" or other 'fluffy' reasoning w/o citing rules. How do you even engage the debate, at that point it's a matter of faith and belief.

They say it stacks... I'm asking them WHY it stacks. Not fluffy, but rules wise. Why do the rules go out of their way to say all these other things stack, but then notably omit this entry.

If they appeal to prior editions... then they need to address that SR4 is radically different than prior ones. While 1->2->3 is almost evolutionary... 4 changed the interplace between attributes, skills, and tests radically. SR3 has rules specifically for layering armor didn't get ported. Other things such as the drain inherent in possession aren't there anymore either. (nor the lose all services etc.).

Are you also of the opinion that Dermal plating, Dermal Sheat and Titanium bone lasing dont stack becouse they miss that sentence.
And ofcource do you take that sentence literally and rule that the armor from skin stuff doesn't stack with armor from bonestuff as neither of those are "worn armor", what about cyberlimb armor.

For a Living Vessel.

"When a spirit possesses a vessel, the combined
being that results is dual-natured, has
Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 289, SR4),
and boasts all of the spirit’s powers and skills.
Occasionally a possessing spirit’s nature manifests
through the vessel in an effect similar to
a shamanic mask (p. 168, SR4)."

"If the vessel is a living creature, the spirit’s
Force is added to the vessel’s Physical attributes.
While possessed, the spirit’s Mental and Special
attributes are used (which means that a possessed
technomancer cannot access Resonance),
with Initiative recalculated as normal (use the
spirit’s normal Initiative Passes)."

Now, let's take a look at what Physical, Mental and Special Attributes are...

Page 67 in SR4A is a good spot, it's titled Attributes.
"A character’s attributes—Agility, Body, Reaction, Strength,
Charisma, Intuition, Logic, and Willpower..."

And then special attributes Edge, Essence, Initiative, Initiative passes, Magic, Resonance.

You'll note that Armor is not an "Attribute".

While Armor is a number, and has ratings, and is something near and dear to our heart, and is an attribute (lower case) of gear (Including vehicles and inanimate objects) it is not a core attribute of a character. It is one gained through the character wearing an inanimate object. the effects of Possession vary between possessing an inanimate object and a vessel.

So that takes care of one avenue, the Possessed character isn't getting a boost to a base Armor Attribute when possessed.

Now to the next bit. A possessing spirit specifically has ITNW and grants it to the possessed character.

ITNW is a subset of Immunity, which states
"The critter gains an “Armor rating” equal to
twice its Magic against that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated
as “hardened” protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that
if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically
does no damage. Additionally, this “armor rating” is added
to the damage resistance test as normal armor."

One possibility is that the Possessed Character has no Magic attribute, but the Possession text specifically states the Spirits Special Magic attribute is used.

So it clear the Possessed Character gets F X 2 hardened armor. So the next question is about whether the Natural armor stacks with worn armor.

The only general rule about stacking is the highest value of any worn armor is used. In all other cases there is a specific instruction about how the armor bonus is applied, but not a consistent entry on whether or not it stacks. Orthoskin specifically says it does with worn armor, Dermal doesn't mention it, but it states it add bonus die, while bone lacing also goes out of it's way to say it is cumulative. Cyberlimb armor says it's cumulative.

So what do we do for those odd things that add armor, but don't explain if it is cumulative with worn armor?

This is where it all gets fun.

I don't know the answer.

I know what I would choose, and why, but I also know it is a choice I am making.

Just some thoughts on the debate here:

From the FAQ:

Is Mystic Armor cumulative with worn armor? Is it subject to the armor encumbrance rules?

Yes, just add its rating on to the rating of any worn armor. Mystic Armor is a magical effect, so it does not encumber the adept.

Okay, just throwing that out there, since Itnw seems pretty close in concept to Mystic armor. Take it as you will.

Also, Drakes:

They come equipped with mystic armor 4 and Itnw 4. What would be the point of that if they did not stack?

Neither are worn as gear.

Understood, but they are similar to each other and one (Mystic armor) is stackable by RAW with worn gear. That was basically my point.

Whoa... lengthy discussion. Ah well i just throw in my own crap, i think (And yes, people have discussed much of it already)

I handle it that way in my game: Every character has these "Armor-slots" everything stacks, as long as its in another slot. If two things are in the same one, only the highest count... but if it is worn both are for encumbarence. The slots are:

1. Bones: Bone Density & Lacing etc.
2. Flesh / Holistic armor: Ki-Powers, possesion spiritpowers etc.
3. Skin/Exoskeleton: Dermal sheathing/armor, smartskin etc (Trolls get a bonus for heavier skin mass so it stacks)
4. Skintight: FFBA etc.
5. Worn/Bulky: Normal Armor
6. Fields and Projections: Armor-Spells, Smart Armor etc.
7. Walls and Cover (All stack of course)

EDIT: oh forgot the hardened stone-skin from surge: It says it doesn't stack... with me it does (takes the skinslot of course). But the hardened part gets checked before the impact (even though it should come after armor and such) but i want it easy and quick.