Rules cites if you pay with essence, it's all gold. You paid for the eyes, which have capacity. Ergo, all parts contained within that eye are gold. You can buy the parts individually for essence cost and they still work, why not part of one big package?

Depends on what you want them effectively unkillable against. A high end sniper rifle will be able to hurt any spirit F7 or less without trouble. A high end sniper rifle with proper ammo can do a F9 without trouble. A rail gun can do a F11 or so without difficulty.

But in the more normal range, expecting assault rifles with regular ammo, a F6 or 7 should be fairly difficult to injure. The real trouble is spirit slayer ammo (Also known as SnS) which doesn't even flinch at spirits below F7, regardless of if it comes from an assault rifle or a holdout.

As for the cyberware thing, yeah, since the eyes were paid for with essence, anything within the eyes are also considered paid for with essence due to the transitive property.

Don't underestimate Force 4 and 5 spirits. Look at it this way: every point of Force gives your spirit an extra 2 dice to everything it does. Plus it gains 1 Edge. Plus Immunity to Normal Weapon (Force 5 is 10 points of hardened armor - way more difficult to pierce than that Force 3 spirit with its rating 6 armor).

Stats are good. They will allow you to experiment, make mistakes and learn from them, and you'll be able to later use Karma to increase what you really like.


Like said in previous replies, everything paid by essence, including what is paid by Capacity, doesn't prevent Magic from working.

When I proposed the cyber-eyes, I forgot you were a dwarf. Another option you can take is to buy only Low-Light Vision, which would enhance your normal dwarven vision. Vision enhancements are usually bought with the cyber-eyes, but nothing prevents you from buying only the enhancements (that's why each cyberware coming with a Capacity cost also comes with an Essence cost).

Awesome, thank you so much. This is exactly the kind of stuff I don't know about the game: expected antagonist dice pools & expected damage ratings.

So F4-F6 is a good range for a butt-kicking combat Spirit, F3 is fine for a buff-buddy, and when I get to F12 they'll be high grade monsters.

Sorry for being dumb, but I can't find the "transitive" thing in the rules. Could you tell me where you got that from?

Thanks, -- N

It isn't in the rules, it is a property of logic. Goes something like:
1. x -> y
2. y -> z
therefore
x -> z

So for this argument it goes something like
Capacity is a part of cybereyes, and cybereyes are paid for with essence, therefore capacity is paid for with essence.

Anyone else miss the old "Crazy Mage with optical binoculars in one hand, and a hand make obs--er...arcane gestures with the other(glowing) hand"
school of increasing how far you could see? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Ah, so it's not actually stated anywhere in the rules, it's just a broad assumption.

I'll start another thread for that argument, as it's fairly irrelevant to my mage, who already has fine thermographic vision and would rather spend his essence on bioware.

Thanks, -- N

Fairly sure this is something that most DSers will actually agree on (Which is reasonably rare), but it'll be interesting to see. And I wouldn't really call it so much a broad assumption so much as reading the rules. I mean you have to apply logic and interpretation to even the most basic of rules.

But agreed about not needing it, forgot that dwarves have thermographic and/or that you were playing a dwarf. The low-light really isn't that required if you have thermo, just nice in a few situations.

Cool, eye-fight thread here.

- - -

I'll post my dude so far.

Body 3
Agility 3
Reaction 3
Strength 3
Charisma 3
Intuition 4
Logic 5 (7)
Willpower 6
Edge 1 <-- this worries me somewhat...
Magic 5 (4)


Active Skills:
Stealth (Group) 1
Influence (Group) 1
Spellcasting 5
Summoning 5
Counterspelling 2
Binding 4


Knowledge skills:
Politics (Corporate) - 4
Astral Research - 4
NYC Nightlife - 4
Procedures (Saeder-Krupp) - 4
History - 4
Philosophy - 4


Qualities:
+ Magician (Hermetic)
+ Focused Concentration (2)
- Sensitive System
- Allergy (Common, Mild) - seawater, it's a campaign based in NYC
- Addiction (Mild) - Scotch, he is a Dwarf

Gear:
Summoning Focus (Man, 3)
Sustaining Focus (3) <-- should I get a Binding focus instead?

Platelet Factories
Cerebral Booster (2)

Glasses with imagelink, skinlink, and flare compensation.
Commlink with skinlink.
Earbuds with audiolink and skinlink.

Spells:
Heal
Stunbolt (Direct)
Levitate (Physical)
Influence (Mental)
Physical Barrier (Environ.)
Glue (Physical) (sm)


Contacts:
Talismonger 6/6 - for everything that I don't yet know I desperately need


Thanks, -- N

Edge 1 can be a bit scary, but that just means you use it as a reroll instead of to boost the initial roll, though of course you can only do this a very limited number of times.

Also, you can't take an addiction to alcohol. Amazing how many people miss this in the quality description.

Remember that a sustaining focus has to be towards a particular type of spell (Health, manipulation, combat, etc), so you need to specify that. I wouldn't switch it to a binding focus, because like I said, you only need one net hit for the binding to hold. Just make sure the spirit you're trying to bind is lower force than half your binding pool and you should be okay. The main thing a binding focus would do is increase the F of the spirit you can bind by about 1, but then you start getting into painful amounts of drain.

Consider dropping a point of strength if you're worried about your low edge. I imagine you'll use edge more often than strength.

I'm still a big fan of the power focus, applies those 2 dices to everything but counterspelling... plus its a single low rating focus so you won't have to worry about addicition.

You're going to want another spell... Probably a physical combat spell like powerbolt, for drones. Mask and invisibilty are great too, but if you're strapped, don't worry about them too much. (I'm also a huge fan of using Shapeshift for infiltrations... Bod 3 means you can go from 1 - 5 BOD animals in terms of size...

Also, you ~really~ aren't going to need Focused Concentration 2... not even really 1... but that's just my opinion.

I'm thinking of playing him as having a Spock-like faith in "logic", and disdaining "luck" as being for inferior magi.

Of course, that attitude may change when he has enough Karma to raise his Edge. (Damn, I want more BP.)

No, you totally can: it's the first in the list of things you can be addicted to (p.93). The Occult Investigator sample character (p.106) has a mild alcohol addiction, too..

Caffeine, nicotine and sugar are what's verboten.

Thanks, that seems like a very good place for me to start.

I might just do that. It makes me a little sad to be the weakest, least tough Dwarf possible, but them's the breaks for a magician.

Thanks, -- N

Does it count for summoning and binding, too? If so, SOLD.

If I dumped FC2, I'd totally have enough points for 4 more spells.

Aaaargh, choices!, -- N

Yeah, it counts for summoning, binding, spellcasting, ritual spellcasting, banishing, and anything else I'm forgetting. Basically it is all the other foci except counterspelling and weapon rolled up into one. It is painfully expensive, but generally worth it.

Also, I'm going to guess that you're right. It is the cigs that people always want to have an addiction to (And alcohol, but that is allowed)

Yup, 1 die per rating to all magic related tests save counterspelling (doesn't relate to MAG at all), this includes drain...

Remember, if your primary concern over a high Edge is for role-playing purposes, it doesn't have to be "luck." It can also represent drive to succeed, refusing to give in, and that sort of thing...and that's without even opening the IC/OOC can of worms about people somehow knowing they have an Edge attribute, or how their Edge attribute might stack up with someone else's.

Okay, it turns out I cannot lower my Strength (because Dwarf Str starts at 3), but I could dump Focused Concentration (2) in trade for Edge 3.

What do you guys think about that trade? My Drain resist would go from 15 -> 13 dice, but that's still quite a few dice.

I'm definitely trading the Summoning (3) focus for a Power (2) focus. The cost is within budget, and I get a BP back from binding.

Thanks, -- N

I agree that you should get another combat spell, however if you're getting it for drones I'd suggest lightning bolt over powerbolt. Lightning bolt the spell does physical damage to drones, so it can damage them, and in addition has the kick-ass secondary electric damage effects on drones, body+armor vs net hits on the attack or they're disabled for several seconds and will probably have to be rebooted, and ignores their armor (which is usually going to be metal). The disadvantage to lightning bolt is that you actually have to hit with it and they get a damage resistance test, as opposed to direct combat spells, where the drone doesn't even get a resistance roll, you just have to beat its object resistance (probably of about 4 or 5) and then you deal full damage and the drone doesn't get a damage resistance test, however direct damage spells only get to add their net hits to damage by increasing drain, whereas indirect spells like lightning bolt get to add whatever net hits they get to damage without any sort of penalty, although they have more drain to begin with.

Also, your agility doesn't really need to be that high, your only skills that use it are infiltration and palming, and considering that you just have them as part of the Stealth group, dropping from 4 dice to 3 in those areas in exchange for 10 more BP to spend seems like a good deal to me, although you may have other opinions.

If you can afford the 5BP restricted gear quality at chargen, I'd suggest getting a pain editor over platelet factories. It costs .1 more essence and 15000 more nuyen, but it allows you to completely ignore stun damage modifiers when active and you won't pass out from stun damage either, so you can basically cast as many spells as you want at your magic level in force without having to worry about drain. You won't be able to take as many hits, but then again you should have some magical means of avoiding damage entirely, like the Armor or Invisibility spells. Or, if you don't want to take restricted gear, get pain editor after chargen, but platelet factories is a pretty useless waste of essence space for a character who, if hit at all, is going to be taking massive damage due to a low body and as far as I can see no armor, somewhat minimizing platelet factories effectiveness. Which reminds me that you should probably buy an armored jacket too.

buying Lined Coat (6/4) for body 3 gives you no penalties,Armored Jacket (8/6) does..

Uuuuuuugh... I didn't know about the Body x2 encumbrance rule. I wanted to wear an Armor Jacket + Helmet. Darn it, I feel like I need Body 4 or 5, or I'm going to die very quickly. Is this accurate?

Also, I was reading the spreadsheet wrong, and thought that having -0.4 essence left me with 5/5 Magic, instead of 4/5. Losing one point of Magic feels painful, even with a Power Focus (2).

Maybe I should throw out the platelet factories & other bio-implants and just make a mundane, un-augmented mage with full Magic rating. Hmm, dumping the bio-ware saves me 9 BP worth of nyuen, which is three more spells. Plus one extra die on magic rolls (in trade for 2 dice on drain resist rolls), which includes Summoning and Binding tests.

If I also drop the Focused Concentration (2) quality, I'll have enough BP for a Mentor Spirit (+2 dice on some spells, +2 dice for Summoning & Binding tests for one kind of spirit), and maybe even Quick Healer (+2 dice when healing others or being healed). Those sound more useful.

Argh.

To quote someone not so famous, it's your character, we have only attempted to provide insight into how you can save points here and there, ultimately, your style and wants are what is important. I do think you've over estimated how much drain you'll normally take unless firing off high end spells. 2 more points or armor may or may not save your hoop, better to not take the hit in the first place. You can still wear the helmet without worrying about encumberance. Another optional rule has it as encumberance only applies if you have more than 1 piece of armor on. Talk with your GM.

Good Lord.

See guys, this is why I get so smug about my own abilities when it comes to advising how to play a Magician. He posted his preliminary skill list yesterday and still nobody has mentioned that he lacks ranks in Perception!

Okay, sorry, had to get that off my chest. I'll quit being a wanker now.

Anyway, yes, dump Focused Concentration but do not get Quick Healer. Your Magician is weak in three areas in which it would help if he were strong, so you could use the points here:

1. Perception is more important than you think, especially for a mage. For one thing, let's set aside the fact that Perception is a great skill for any runner (it helps you notice pesky things like that guy with the handgun creeping up to your window) and check out Step 3 of the spellcasting rules.

That's pretty bad, and it is yet another reason why defaulting to 4 Intuition is dangerous. Even if you can roll well enough on Perception tests to avoid ambush situations you'll still find yourself in very real danger of losing track of your target when fighting in adverse conditions, thermographic vision or no. At the very least, grab a rank and specialize in Visual tests.

2. Counterspelling. Unless there's another Magician or Mystic Adept in the group, you'll likely find that your most important role on the team is to do things that mundane methods simply cannot emulate. This includes interfering with other Awakened threats. Having less than 4 counterspelling when you're the lone Magician is practically negligent. It's also worth noting that if you're ever stuck in an area with a background count, counterspelling may very well end up being the only thing you can really do to help the team out, since counterspelling doesn't require a high magic attribute to be effective as simple defense.

3. Damage mitigation/avoidance. X-Kalibur's advice on how it is better to avoid a hit than to take one is right, but in your case you're not going to be Dodging anything any time soon, so you may as well take the one die hit to your Reaction tests if you can get enough armor out of the deal (look into form fitting body armor if you have Arsenal). Better yet, get yourself the Physical Camouflage spell. Anything to be less of a sitting duck.

Now, I don't know how your GM operates, so take the following advice with a grain of salt: I'd consider dumping Influence* or Stealth. Basically, they're nice skill sets, but as it currently stands trying to con people or sneak onto private property isn't something your character is going to be very good at and so you'll depend on other teammates to clear the way for you whether you have the skill groups or not. I'd rather see you put points into grabbing a couple things you can do well rather than try to write a couple checks that your 4 dice cannot cash. It hurts, since they're great, great skills to have, but no character gets to do everything.

*This one really, really depends on your GM. At my table, you'll probably be OK without social skills with that three charisma of yours as long as you don't push your luck. By the raw, low to average charisma and no skills means you can still go to the stuffer shack and grab a soykaf without causing a fuss. You're a perfectly normal guy. Just don't try and order around cops while not wearing any pants. YMMV, however, since some GMs see a guy with less than 4 dice and figure he's a social reject, whether that's really accurate by the rules or not. Use caution.

Should try to get some Assensing.

Agreed. Without assensing or astral combat you're just kind of an expensive mystad. Although, I guess you could pick up some astral skills later, but I wouldn't count on it. Plenty of other things to spend karma on as a mage. Still, I think the stuff I mentioned is ever so slightly more important just because it can be kinda fatal not to have them.

With Stealth Group, by RAW, the GM has explicit grounds to allow you to substitute for Perception in certain cases. In addition, there are other things that gives you additional dice to Perception, even if you do default. Furthermore although casting a spell may require a Perception test to see a target, most spells do not accomplish what cannot be done mundanely.

Perception is important, yes but functionally a mage has to bring something that the others can't. Astral Perception may be available to other characters and Astral Projection is even rarer; it is difficult to find dice pool adders for Assensing. I think that Assensing stands above any other skill for a mage because natural access to the Astral Plane is the one unique ability that mages possess and without Assensing, it is a far greater waste than not having Perception or Counterspelling.