The problem is that what constitutes treating a spirit poorly is frankly rather open to interpretation. Most times its seems to me thatt GMs approach this situation less in terms of "What would a Spirit actually want to avoid doing given the tradition and stakes?"and more in terms of "I can use this to keep the Magician from getting out of hand."

Tenegar:
That's not metagaming... you know how many services are owed when you get the spirit... and really it is quite draining. Remember spirits cause 2 drain per hit on their resistance test.


Anyhow on possession spirits and traditions:
The biggest problem w/ them is the rules are in many ways similar but not very well defined in others. And a lot of people (especially beginners) don't take note of all their drawbacks. In a way, this is due to poor editing, you have rules scattered all over (vessel rules here, power rules here, etc... confusion even among the writers).


The binding cost argument is a red herring. While yes you do tend to keep a stable of bound spirits. For most purposes, you don't use your bound spirits, you just summon on the fly. ESPECIALLY high force spirits, you don't bind them, it's too risky, but you do summon them unbound.

That much said, it generally takes more services to do things w/ possession than materialization. (a materialize spirit can just do it at will... a possession needs to be ordered to attack someone or a group to possess it. possession itself is an attack. (stop and think about it this way... 3 runners vs. 2 guards... runners summon a spirit... it's now a 4 on 2... possession... you 'capture' a guard and turn it right into a 4 on 1 as one guard 'switches' sides).

Then there's the extra 'cost' of channeling... which gives you two benefits... 1. you save big time on services... w/o channeling you can issue commands through the mental link yes, however changing your commands requires burning through services (this is true of both materialization and possession, however you're more limited in doing things for yourself while self-possessed). However, once you have it, it's the best of both worlds... you get the buff bonuses of channeling w/o the penalties to your ability to cast spells or otherwise.

Others have pointed out, it's very usefull to have a spirit to possess your body while you're out and astral.

Also, people always forget about "If the possession fails or the spirit is banished, the critter may not attempt to possess the vessel again til..." sunrise/sunset. (p101).

Also, many aren't aware that possessed objects are clearly magical and will exhibit some thing to this effect... such as a shamanic mask on the emotitoy clearly making it more than a mere pet and a good chance of garnering a negative reaction. (noticing magic... 6 - spirits force, at least force 5 spirit to overcome object resistance)

Then you hit other items... possessed mages are far harder targets than even the beefiest street sams... especially because the street sam normally doesn't have the wilpower + counterspelling to resist magic... while the mage normally does! So they don't have that weakness.

For each point of force you gain 1 point of agility & str (attacking), 1 point of reaction (avoiding getting hit), 1 point of body (soaking damage), Higher body means, 2 points more worn armor (or just using something simple like a ballistic shield to quickly gain an extra 6/4 armor, or putting on PPP).

So a very modest force4 spirit, results in potentially *+16* dice above and over their starting avoid/soak dice to avoid/resist damage for a possessed mage.

Then you get diehards claiming that ItNW is cumulative on top of the 4 dice per point of force above to damage soak above rather than being a seperate special armor test. Despite that hardened armor power is the only one in the book which does not explicitly state that it's cumulative w/ your worn armor total. (I won't derail thread by arguing it here... we can link to where this has been hashed out... I will only state, that Hardened armor is unique in being the only armor NOT listed as cumulative and including this point of contention for sake of completeness).

Another source of armor then comes into play, worn armor! (you can possess it to enhance it's rating...)
For real fun... get military armor! Give it "strength upgrade"... and watch the spirit enhance that and the armor!


Another one, is people pull out the FAQ (which clearly violates RAW in many cases and IS NOT an errata and is also 3 years out of date and not been maintained)... and claim that possession allows raising attributes over augmented maxes. When in SR4a it repeats... magic/tech, etc. can not raise an attribute above the augmented limit.



After this point... you start to run into a real problem as a GM... how do you challenge the possession player? Anything you can do which can realistically challenge him... will fry any other party member. And I am squarely against 'picking on' one player and ignoring the rest. When you need anti-vehicle weapons to even dent the character (or chunky salsa the others)... you got a problem.

Non-combat challenges are generally the only option left at this point. However, again, the character can be nigh impossible to kill once buffed... and this leaves only the old-fashioned surprise attack sniper route, or orbital cow drop type attacks.


I'll add this as well... materialization can be a problem as well... especially the high-charisma army of spirits types... (expensive to bind all of them... but turns them into a one man walking force of nature). However, it's generally less so, as you don't have so many things stacking together in a single unit... (plus things like elemental damage, and called shots for damage can quickly even the odds for mundanes against them).

Except that the mage isn't treating his spirits poorly. He is summoning his spirits and letting them go, until he gets those spirit that are more willing to work for him.

If you owe someone 1 dollar, and he says to forget it, is that abuse? The spirit owes the mage 1 service, the mage says, "Forget it. You are free to go." That's abuse? That's mistreating the spirit?

It might be abuse if they magically port me away from whatever I'm doing to tell me this, with the implication that I didn't owe them before hand. I guess it goes down to roleplaying or not. If you see the mechanical act of summoning spirits as simply commanding them to appear and compelling them to serve and then banishing them back to the great wherever if youc an't command them sufficiently then yes I could easily see it as breeding resentment.

Aha. So, a sledgehammer to the face, an anvil to the groin, and tossing someone off a bridge don't count as violence, but shooting does? I'd love to know what kind of logical contortions you use to justify that, but frankly, I suspect I'd need a Ph.D. in "Batshit Crazy" to follow them.

Quote edited to reflect what you actually posted, as opposed to what you ninja-edited it to say afterward.

All I changed was firearm to phallic. At no time did I refer to shooting as violent.

However, it seems it is time for me to remind people of my sig. Again.

Nope! I didn't read the rest of this post, but what you say here is flat out wrong. Digital Grimoire even uses the same example, of possessing a guard.

It said should, not must, i agree with the logic, in addition to the already messed up rules of possesion the ability to get two services for the price of one effectively "autokill" a grunt plus have him now fighting on your side plus bennes, yea I'd say two services is a small price to pay for that.

Emy... Just like Lurker says... should not must...

The rules regarding uses of services... and those for combats are generally well understood. (Multiple uses of a power in one combat can be considered a single service... though I am making the point here that the possession power itself is an attack power).


And what happens when the spirit doesn't possess that particular guard? It can't try and possess him again for a while... is that a burned service....

I agree w/ the spirit of what you've said in one way... a combat counts as a single service... now what happens after combat? The guard is still possessed or the spirit just leaves it's newly possessed form as it's service is now ended? Or do you use up a service now to keep him possessed... generally 'turning' the units against one another is FAR FAR more effective than adding additional units to a fight.


I'll also add another item... generally I don't see problems w/ possession as a GM tool (like toxic spirits and traditions and other NPC items). However, I think it's quite problematic when players start to run roughshod with it and the GM needs to challenge the player w/o mulching the other players.

I understand people feel strongly about the very existence of Possession Traditions. It has indeed been talked about in other threads whether possession should even be allowed ... lots.

Let's proceed from here with the following base position:

A) I am the GM. I am Creative, and can make any situation fun and frightening for the players. Hear me roar! (A bit over the top?)

B) I allow Possession Traditions in my game.

C) I allow the Physical Attribute maximum to be 1.5 X the sum of the Force of the spirit and the natural (unaugmented by tech or magic) Attribute of the vessel at the time of possession.

D) I allow the ItNW to sum with worn armor. Yes, these last two allow for a physical 'tank'.

Now, how do the players and I have fun with this. What other cool things can the player do? What pitfalls of possession should the players and I watch out for? That is to say, what are the pluses and minuses of possession that we can all know about so nobody is seen to be trying to pull the wool over anybody's eyes?

I quoted the part of your post that I was specifically disproving. I then quoted Digital Grimoire, proving you wrong.

What was unclear about that?



I agree... but I didn't write the example in Digital Grimoire.

As an addendum, page 95 of Street Magic says something very similar regarding how many services (1) it takes for a spirit to manifest/possess a vessel and do something physical.

So, for example, a Possession tradition mage should understand that if she orders a spirit to possess a particular opponent, and the possession attempt fails, the spirit will wait to try the possession tomorrow. The mage may want to reassign the spirit, but that is one service gone.

A more efficient command may be, "Take possession of one of those guards and attack the rest."

I accidentally hit post... while re-reading your post... I took the last part for a sig.

However, a lot of people try and use bound spirits just to buff items.


Someone making a kick ass possessed bike like in Ghost Rider. It's going to take a service just to get the spirit to possess it, it's not something effortless or trivial to do such as a normal tradition just having normal spirit materialize/dematerialize at will.


Another example is a self-possessed mage w/o channeling. It's going to take services to keep changing orders. however, so long as you're dealing w/ a non-bound spirit, services are relatively cheap and easy to come by.

Street magic would strongly disagree with you, and if you as a GM did that to me, your game world would get very 'interesting' as ceo's start jumping out of windows....

Pg 103 street magic

Then there has been lengthy discussions about what is and is not a service, and while the general rule is it takes a service to use a power, that single service may invoke several if not all the powers of the spirit, multiple times over an extended duration depending on exactly how it is worded. For example, "Kill all corpsec in that building" is a single service regardless of the number of guards in that building, and depending on the teperment of the spirit, ie Guardian or Beast, and the character's tradition, that may well be conscidered just fine, and in fact very 'fun' by the spirit in question. Also it NEVER costs a service to tell a spirit to stop using a power, or to end a previously requested service.

Fine, so I'll order the spirit to get me a beer, and clean my house then release it...

Keep in mind the spirit is PAID for its services by the magic which is causing the drain to the summoner in the first place. So imagine someone paying you a day's wages to do some 'work' for them. They pay you in advance, and when you go to see what they want, they say 'nothing'. Most people at this point take the free money they just got, and go happily home. You however would advocate attacking the person who just gave you money..... I think you may wish to rethink your stance on this topic, or seek counseling.

It is suggested = strong disagreement, huh? Way to tantrum dude. You are a mage, not a spirit. If you want to roleplay a spirit that is an option. I would trust a very strong RPer to handle his own spirit duties, but I don't meet that many RPers capable of translating and filtering their own intentions through a spirit seive for the benefit of good aesthetics in storytelling.

And, calling off a service isn't a service, but changing the parameters of a service requires a new service. The point being that a possessed character tends to be careful about committing to actions, and rightfully so. You obviously missed the whole point of that post so that you can instead feel affronted. Gratz. The point was, self-defense is not a service, so any time someone gets aggressive, you can kill them without expending a service, which negates the need for a thick-headed "kill all the guards in that building" service.

I see, so pointing out what the rules say is supposed to happen is having a tantrum. I'm going to keep this civil and suggest you do the same, because otherwise bull will make his rounds and neither of us will like it.


Yes I am a mage, and if the gm wishes to go against the suggested method of play for my character, I will go against the suggested method of play for his game, and suicide rates of important NPC's will skyrocket.


And the gm telling you, that because he feels like ignoring the contents of the book regarding how your character is supposed to function, you don't actually get to play your character whenever you use the abilities provided in the book is a good way to lose players, and the respect of any potential players.


You however stated ending hostilities DID require a service, NOT using concealment anymore required a service, and the termination of other abilities DID require a service. Now you're saying that when using abilities your tradition is founded upon you effectively lose control of your character in direct contradiction to the contents of the book that ability is in. If the GM did something as asshatish as have a spirit I summoned go pick a fight without my orders or consent, while driving me, and I didn't have the spirit bane quality, the rest of the session would involve every named NPC, and any unnamed ones I could think of dying from suicide, and me leaving the table after.

Wow! I disagree with almost everything you (Falconer) and you (LurkerOutThere) say on this subject. The possession rules work fine, ime, and I think a lot of the problems people are having are due to not understanding or applying them properly.



Edge alters a lot of things and when GMs are lax on controlling Edge, many aspects of the game become distorted. I remember the last time we had a big discussion on Possession, a poster was absolutely raging about how utterly over-powered it was. Turned out his GM refreshed Edge pretty much every fight and the guy was popping Edge points like pez. (He had other misunderstandings about possession as well, but I wont get into that here). First off, I don't know how other GM's handle this, but downtime in my game isn't a sea of infinite Edge refreshes. If someone blows their Edge before the start of an actual run, then they've still got to wait till Edge refreshes at some approved moment. That's a cost. Also, as others have noted, if you're spending Edge routinely on summoning and binding tests, then sooner or later, the spirits might start to resent you pushing them so hard and start spending Edge themselves. And that's a fight you don't want to start.



As mentioned, if you're using a spirit for personal augmentation, then a low force spirit isn't good enough. No magician is going to say: "I've got an extra two Body now, I'm going to plunge into melee". You want a decent force spirit, say 4, maybe more. If you're doing that every morning, then you're running a risk. Say you are a pretty good summoner, Magic 5, Summoning 5, combined drain attributes of 10, and you routinely summon a Force 4 every morning. The probability of each of 0 to 4 hits by the spirit is as follows:
0 hits or 2DV = 20%
1 hits or 2DV = 40%
2 hits or 4DV = 30%
3 hits or 6DV = 10%
4 hits or 8DV = 1%

Typical soak is 3 hits for our mage, so what you're saying is that every morning, a person should get up and one morning in three start the day getting punched in the head and spending an extra hour in bed to recuperate, one morning in 10, spending three extra hours in bed to recuperate and once every four months take 5DV damage. I'm not saying you can't do this - I'm just pointing out that relying on the law of averages wont help and that in most games, you have to wait for Edge to refresh so if you're using it for this, it's at a cost.



No rules system is perfectly air-tight. Sometimes a GM has to make a sanity ruling.

EDIT: Am breaking post here as I've reached the maximum number of quotes allowed...

...continued



You need a fairly powerful spirit to possess someone reliably. This tactic is best reserved for negating powerful, mundane enemies. I regard it as normally a waste when used against grunts because you gain so little. You remove the enemy at the cost of an action phase to order the spirit to attack when if it's just a grunt, you could have likely just stunbolted him. If it's a bound spirit, you're removing that grunt at the cost of a few thousand nuyen / number of services. That's orders of magnitude above the cost of the Sam's three round burst. And in terms of the ally gained, it's just a grunt so it doesn't add much and there's an action phase delay of two before you gain anything (phase 1, order spirit, phase 2 attack). Particular circumstances alter this, such as gaining control of someone in a tactically advantageous position, but as a rule, it's an uncertain tactic that doesn't gain you so very much. Most of the time, you'd be better off with Control Thoughts.



Some people say that as your special attributes (e.g. Magic) are replaced by those of the spirit, this means you can't access your own magic and cast spells. That's not explicit RAW, just an extension of some people's interpretation of fluff. But even without that, possession will seriously mess up your spellcasting. For a start, unless you have Channeling metamagic, you don't have access to your skills such as Sorcery. That really does suggest that you can't cast your spells and the spirits "mind is in control and does not have access to the vessel's knowledge or skillset" pretty much clinches it. If you do have Channeling metamagic, then you have access to your skills but your Magic rating is likely lower (unless you've summoned a significantly powerful spirit with all the risks and costs that entails) and your drain pool is likely to be lower due to reduced mental attributes for the same reason. Also keep in mind that regardless of any of this, if you're casting spells whilst possessed, you're not getting much use out of your spirit other than a very pricey Armour spell. A materialisation mage will send a spirit to attack and support it with spells. A possession magician using self-buffing can't do that: It's attack or cast weaker spells than normal.



I take it back about disagreeing with everything you say. THIS is a sentiment I fully support. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)



Gah! I'd be careful with that. Being able to summon and bind your spirits in advance is an important requirement. If you're summoning high force spirits in combat often, you're living dangerously. If you're avoiding the "binding materials vs. bullets" issue by summoning on the fly, you're taking some chances. But maybe you're not wrong. You mention keeping some bound spirits on hand, presumably for emergencies. Okay, but the cost of binding is still something to keep in mind when discussing the powerfulness of Possession. Give that up, and you're giving up a lot of reliability and the capacity to do your high force summoning in a safe environment with medical care and time to recuperate on hand.

EDIT: Again, hitting maximum quotes...

...continued



I disagree with this and the books back me up. You just tell the spirit to kill the guards and if it needs to do something to achieve that, it just does it. In the case of possession spirits, that's possessing one of them. Same with a matrerialised spirit. When you tell it to kill the guards, you don't have to use an extra service to get it to use its Elemental Attack power. If that power is the sensible way to do something, the spirit will probably use it. If you summon an Air spirit and tell it to get you safely out of somewhere, it's likely to use its Concealment power (costing a service). Spirits, at least ones with moderate Force, are intelligent creatures, not lawyers, imo. In fact, Digital Grimoire actually gives a specific example that supports this where a spirit with 1 service left is instructed to use its Confusion power on some guards and possesses a fallen PC in order to do so. GM's should provide some flexibility, not nickle and dime PCs to death (but at the same time, be ready to not let PCs lawyer-speak spirits into giving out freebies).



Sorry - channeling opens you up to casting spells again, but you're still using the Magic rating of the spirit and the lowest of either of your Mental Attributes. Unless you have a particularly high force spirit, that's going to mean reduced power and reduced drain resistance for a lot of magicians. Also keep in mind that if you're casting spells whilst possessed, you're not getting value for money.



That's a good catch. Something to add to the list of tactics if you have the sort of GM who's likely to hassle an unattended body.



"Diehards" You make it sound like people carrying on fighting after a battle is lost. ItNW is cumulative and most people agree with that. Some people seeing a lack of explicit statement in one piece of text and then leaping in to say that this means something isn't so, when it fits with everything else both fluff and rules, is another matter.



Digital Grimoire addresses this, highlighting both the inappropriateness of this for many traditions and gives the example of the increased Ballistic and Impact ratings of possessed armour (consider the implciations of that on your ItNW argument, btw) badly hampering the wearer's mobility. (Digital Grimoire, pg. 11)



Possession doesn't allow raising attributes over augmented maximums. It replaces stats with those of the combined entity. Street Magic came out over three years ago. If the FAQ is three years old, then that's not an issue. And the FAQ doesn't need to be an errata because there's nothing to errata. The FAQ simply clears up misunderstandings. You can cover your ears if you want to but it makes it very, explicitly clear that the intention and meaning of the rules is that Possession and Inhabitation attribute ratings are independent from the vessel's limitations:


You can't get more explicit than that. It even specifies that the resulting dual entity has new calculated maximums. You can rule differently in your game if you like, but it's neither rules as written nor rules as intended.



This is off topic for the actual thread, but it's fairly easy to challenge a Possession based PC. You just squeeze the group in ways that other players can handle but the magician can't. Cut off or limit their funds for a bit - maybe they have a couple of months in the wilderness on a run or a globe-trotting adventure like the Artifact series or parts of Ghost Cartels. The samurai will be able to handle securing bullets and reloading a lot more easily than the magician can get binding materials and carry out summoning rituals. Given them extended battles. If the target makes a get away in a car, the samurai, shrugs, holster's his gun and pulls it out again when they've caught up. The possession magician's spirit says: "I have protected you this battle as agreed. Now I go home". Similarly, if the guards come in three groups, the samurai's bullets will last but not the magician's spirits. A possessed magician is dual natured. Send a magician or a spirit with Innate Spell Casting against him floating just out of reach and straffing the Earth-bound magician with spellfire. Or have three Astral spirits, lowish force, attack the magician on the Astral plane where his friends can't protect him. He'd better have good Astral Combat abilities because he's out of luck otherwise. Have battles take place in public places where a magician suddenly turning into Linda Blair will cause problems. Set up ambushes where the delay in putting on your spirit armour becomes a big issue. If you're jumped by two gangers, what do you do? Stand there commanding your spirit and then stand there getting possessed whilst they wail on you with baseball bats? Or do you try to fight them as a mundane? Push the dual creature beyond the bounds of the magician's own body so that he can't stop fighting (ending the service) without falling over dead. Use the spirit's weaknesses against him - possessed by Fire Elemental? Hose him down. Play spirits as the intelligent entities they are - have the spirit disagree on tactics or basically outdo the player. Keep in mind that Channelling is only a truce with the spirit, not gaining a new PC.

There are lots of ways to challenge a possession based PC. Just don't let them dictate the terms of engagement.



Steel Lynx with high-velocity weapon. No problem. If you really can't beat the character, then no problem. Fall back. That's what you'd do in real life, right? You're not obliged to run the game like a D&D encounter. Let them steal the prototype from the lab then shoot them in the back on the way out. All you have to do is delay them until reinforcements arrive. Besides, you're arguing on the basis of high-force and powerful magicians. If that's what they are, then you need to be sending them against commensurate opposition.

Some quick comments knasser...

The FAQ is actively NOT maintained, and fails spectacularly at the primary purpose of a FAQ... to clarify (not change) rules. Anymore it is as often wrong as not. Muspellsheimr, myself, and others actively point this out. In many spots whoever wrote the FAQ entry clearly didn't read the clear simple wording of the rulebook. (or the rulebook changed after it was written, or they confuse prior editions).

Digital grimoire shows similar effects. He summons a guardian spirit with 'short arms' skill?! What exactly is short arms skill? It seems the author is still half-confused w/ the SR3 rules (where the skill is SMG's).

I challenge you to point out where in *SR4* it says that ItNW is cumulative. It is nowhere stated anywhere. Hardened armor uses a completely different mechanic than normal armor and is considered a seperate non-stacking armor total and nowhere not once is it stated the power is cumulative. (see below) I believe this perception comes from prior editions where armor was handled differently.

Again this confusion I think comes from prior editions, where armor is handled very differently than in SR4.

Also, ritual materials yes are hard to buy in your example, but they're actually very easy to refine and create using enchanting and collection rules. If you're out in the wilderness you're in prime terrain to collect raw materials for them as well. So even that is quickly covered up w/ just some minor investment in freebie knowledge skills, enchanting, and some reasonably priced magical tools.


The final point is a rundown of why a lot of people feel that possession is badly balanced compared to materialization.
Okay possess the guard exactly the same as materialization if you take the books suggestions... okay

1. you've just taken out a guard in the act of possessing... (and 2x force vs. standard mental attributes isn't even a challenge). A materialization spirit on the other hand takes a round to materialize and hasn't even attacked anything yet in the presence of coming to the physical. (it attacks much faster, and MUCH more effectively!)
2. the spirit does not arrive 'naked' as a materialized spirit would, instead it now has a large amount of equipment buffs stacked on top of it.
3. Unlike a materialized spirit w/ it's set of attributes isn't merely force +- fixed stats. It is Force + character stats (which are almost ALWAYS SUPERIOR to materialized +- stat blocks... find me a guard w/ any negative physical stats!).
3a. on top of this... IF the FAQ is followed (and contravenes the reprinted SR4a). Those new limits aren't even subject to augmented maxes... this only gets worse.
4. Further insult to injury is when you claim now on top of a guard w/ reasonable equipment/armor etc... it now has hardened quality AND even further armor to resist mundane damage. (again minimum 4x force of spirit... +1rea, +1bod, +2ItNW)... you start to see where things get a bit you of whack, force 6 spirit means at minimum +24 dice of damage resistance!!! which more than doubles the number of dice that most street sams are rolling... even heavily armored trolls rarely have that much to start, and that's not starting, that's, ADDITIONAL.
5. This is on top of rules that make even high force materialization spirits problematic.
6. Possessed military armor allows for such wonkery as increased strength (beyond augmented limits), mobility upgrade (non-encumbering), and armor upgrade.... of course getting past that OR5 is a big hurdle!
7. You have people who claim that changing the parameters of a service does not use another service which devolves into the whole what uses up a service argument. IMO: view the spirit as a drone/pilot... if you'd have to issue a command to the drone pilot to change what it's doing you just used another service.
8. Even channeling... a force 4 or 5 is almost always going to match or exceed attributes. And by the time you raise those higher, you should be able to summon higher force spirits.

To other posters....
Yes summoning on the fly can work wonders... Spirit only resists w/ force. Use your edge on the drain, and centering is very usefull to you if you are a summoner type magician. And drain can be first aided away, and so long as it's stun, an hours rest will normally take off most/all of it.

And yes a common mistake GM's make is that spirits are NPC's (both Materialization & possession)... and players should never have direct access to their edge. And RARELY should even use edge against the players. Should try and subvert/pervert the players orders.

Send them to Lagos.


In all fairness, you are making the claim, so the burden of proof lies on you. Hardened armor does indeed stack in other situations, for excemple in vehicle combat, when the vehicle armor is simply added to the PC armor, when the character inside is targeted instead of the vehicle itself.
And even disregarding that, the simple LACK of a statement clarifying whether they stack or not is not proof to the contrary

D2F:
And I have made that argument, repeatedly, and not seen one person counter anything I said. They just repeat, it stacks it stacks it stacks. And never cite where in the rulebooks it grants that ability. Normally the comeback is fluff.

I've even gone so far as to cite every single source of stacking armor, AND the operative cumulative with, or grants additional dice... etc.


And in the vehicle case you're wrong. The vehicle does not grant additional armor to passengers, it functions AS A BARRIER. It's no different than shooting through a wall. Spirits and possession are not treated as barriers.



And how exactly does sending them to Lagos challenge them more than otherwise? yes it's a disease ridden fever swamp (figuratively and literally).

I am not arguing whether they stack or not. I am saying you cannot find a quote that says they don't stack, either. As such you cannot back up your claim with text, the very thing you ask dissenting opinions to do. That's quite hypocritical, especially since one could argue that the burden of proof is on you.



And since you "cited every single source of stacking armor", you obviously came across this little nugget:



Granted, that does not concern immunity to normal weapons. However, it does present a case, where hardened armor stacks with regular worn armor. The underlying logic is the same as the one used when referring to ItnW.
You claim they don't stack, just because it is not specifically mentioned. Occam's razor, however, claims otherwise. That's why the burden of proof is on oyu and as long as you cannot find a ruling that backs your position, you cannot rule it out.



Nn-n-ntr.w!

Lagos is a mostly rating 1 - 3 Toxic zone, mixed with a few rating 1-3 death zones. Unless you allow for toxic or shadow mages, your possession characters will have a LOT of trouble in a rating 3 toxic zone...