Recent discussions elsewhere on DS prompt me to start this thread. I would like to engender a discussion about the practical ways possession can be used in game play, and the practical concerns that might come up in a player's or GMs mind about powers, abilities and side effects.

There have been enough discussions about whether possession is 'broken' or not. We don't need another thread going over the same ground. Nor do we need to compare how possession is better or worse than materialization.

What I do want is practical, tactical and nuts-and-bolts. For example, from recent posts elsewhere:





For issues such as these, what I would like to see are posts dealing with:
1) How does one using possession account for and overcome difficulties?
2) How does one using possession make innovative uses of the abilities possession gives him?
3) How does a GM have fun challenging users of possession?
4) What things could really nail a user of possession to the wall if the GM could only think of them?

Information such as this would help both players and GMs come up with better play. I'm looking forward to a very informative discussion!

Generally, when you're possessed, you are no longer in control of your own actions. How is this not a deal breaker?

EDIT:
Sorry for being so terse. I'll spell out some role playing issues with self-possession for RPers and GMs and how they can be addressed.

Okay, let's examine some ways to view the problems which come from riding along with an extra-planar entity.
1) Speech is handled by proxy. The player whispers to the GM what he wants to say, the GM tells the groups what the spirit possessing the character says. This is necessary to maintaining the feel of possession. Allowing the player to think that he is in control is not good form.

2) Movement and basic "non-roll" actions are a given, but also any defensive actions should be automatic. Passive perception, dodge, even vehicle crash tests should all be handled by the spirit without any needed input from the player. Self-preservation is never a service. However any aggressive or decisive action which calls for a roll takes up a service as does calling off such an act. This results in a possessed character being like a compressed spring. The character lurches along only reacting to the world, until the moment comes to act, at which point they act in an overwhelming manner. This manner, that of a bomb waiting to go off, should be apparent in the player's interactions. Imagine a player, instead of rushing in to attack a group of gangers, walking up to them and telling them in an otherworldly voice that he just got finished with their mothers and has a bill for services rendered. Every fight picked is a freebie, so remember what you learned from The Exorcist and talk mad shit. This can keep you from running out of services with potential hostiles about.

This is a set of guidelines for the players and GMs on how to use, and challenge the use of possession. When to do it, how to deal with problems (like 'before Channeling the possessed loses control'), what points to keep in mind as player and/or GM.

The vessel losing control may actually be part of the plan, if you have a spirit possess an opponent.

Binding costs and the number of services you're likely to actually end up with are something that gets left out of far too many conversations on proper spirit deployment-- and that goes for Materialization as well. Having a bound uber-spirit is often only useful in theory-- once you factor in the amount of services you can realistically expect and the risk entailed in creating one plus the odds of the GM slapping you on the noggin, it becomes clear why they're usually relegated to thought exercises. In practice, my most successful Conjurer only summoned high force spirits for spot work and emergency situations like combat and went for quantity AND quality with his bound spirits by using Invoking on relatively li'l fellas. With enough dice and a li'l luck you can get a couple Great Form Powers or Spirits with LOS(A) attacks out of a squad of Force 3s, and I'd much rather have something with Astral Gateway and a decent amount of services than a bound Force 6+ that will make blood come out of my ears when I try to Invoke it.

Street Magic explicitly states that when your own spirit possesses you, you can direct his actions via the mental link, without services expended on that.

Quite right, but the meat body is under the direct control of the spirit, and only indirectly controlled by the summoner by giving commands to the spirit. This is then compounded by the fact that the summoner, inside his own, possessed body, cannot do things like cast spells.*

*On the physical plane. He could project and act independently on the astral plane. One potential use of possession is to keep the summoner's meat body safe while he projects and bombs around the astral plane. Things like shedim and jealous mundanes love to find empty shells left behind by projecting mages.

The reason that I raised binding costs as a factor for possession but not materialisation was not because they are not a factor for materialisation but because there are two additional issues for possession. Firstly the example used in the thread that spawned this one, was a PC that was specifically built around using spirits for self-possession for combat (and that's usually what people have in mind for possession mages, anyway). In this case, you need the spirit to be bound because you don't want to be going through a summoning process at the start of combat when you still have another two phases to go on top of that (order spirit to possess you. let spirit possess you) before you can actually get any use out of this. Also, you don't want to leave this sort of thing up to chance in the middle of combats. It's not a legal requirement, but if your possasession mage isn't using bound spirits, he will suffer for this whereas with materialisation, the addition of the summoning process isn't as big an issue. Secondly, possession spirits have a higher minimum requirement of force to be useful for these purposes. A force 1 or 2 materialisation spirit can actually be very useful. A similarly forced possession spirit is near useless at possessing hostile targets and doesn't give you enough benefit when possessing you to make it worthwhlie building a character around this. And worse, if you use a low-force spirit, you're actually weakening yourself due to using the mental attributes of a low-force spirit and, by RAW, possibly reducing your Magic rating as well.

Anyway, I can deconstruct possession rules and list their disadvantages all day. pbangarth asked for advice on how to play it, not whether or not you should.

My first advice is a general caveat: don't build a character around becoming super tough when possessed. Until you initiatie and get the Channelling metamagic it's a nightmare. After you get it, it's still riddled with problems. Don't be a one-trick pony.

Now assuming you are a possession based magician, avoid the following tactics:

• Self-possesion by low-force spirits. You'll gain little, lose a lot (low mental attributes, low Magic rating)
• Attempting to possess enemies with low-force spirits. It's too chancy unless you've run out of more reliabe tactics and most of the time it would be more effective just to use your magic to subdue or kill the enemy. And remember that you wont be fooling anyone with your possessed person - it will be obvious to their friends that they are possessed (see "Spotting Spirits" in the books). Reserve this tactic for important enemies and use higher force spirits. Remember, you're still using a service even if your spirit spends the entire combat trying and failing to possess someone.

Beware of the following gotchas:

• Having yourself possessed and ordering the spirit to attack and kill your enemies if you don't have a second service ready and you're uncertain as to the outcome of the fight. The spirit will then plunge into combat and if things go against you, you've no way to countermand the orders and simply dismissing the spirit will drop you in the midst of a bunch of enemies without its protection anymore. Obviously the channelling metamagic will alleviate this.
• Forgetting that you will lose any additional condition monitor boxes when the spirit departs, potentially endangering your life.

Do use the following tactics:

• Have a bound spirit under orders to possess your body if you are rendered unconcious and to get you out of their and to medical help. The extra condition boxes you suddenly get could save your life as will being in a hospital when you suddenly lose them. The Immunity to Normal Weapons will also help you in your retreat. Movement power and Concealment are a double bonus if your spirit has them.
• Keep a reasonably high-power spirit bound for taking down very tough mundane enemies. This is effective both because it eliminates them and because it gains you a very powerful ally.
• Put effort into powerful prepared vessels. This can be a low willpower troll samurai you keep locked in your basement, a golem you take on runs with you or a decent drone. Possessing high-tech items such as drones is difficult and requires a decent force spirit, but the results are impressive. For example, a Steel Lynx with some extra armour, an LMG and being ridden by a force 5 spirit is quite scary and has magical protection that an ordinary drone does not. You can also do impressive things with para-animals such as Hell Hounds, although Inhabitation by an Ally spirit is better.
• Take a few simple pets with you for possession by low-force spirits as needed. You're going to kick yourself if you're locked in a prison cell and you just need to get the passkey off the sleeping guard's belt. A materialisation magician just sends out a Force 1 spirit to get it. You'll need your faithful pet monkey with you to do the same. (Possessed monkeys look extremely scary, btw). There are hundreds of situations like this.

That's all I have time for, for now.

K.

An addendum to knasser's last point: a cute little mobile emotitoy possessed by a significant Force spirit (it has to be relatively high Force to overcome the Object Resistance, and Prepare the vessel first) can be a useful ally. It helps you in negotiations, and can rip the face off the other guy if negotiations go wrong.

1.) When dealing with the potential cost of Binding, an investment of at least 3 but preferably 4 points of Edge will come in handy. When you summon, make sure you get as many net hits as you can by summoning and dismissing until you get a good initial set of hits and then you should spend edge to gain some more. Use edge during drain and binding as necessary. Also, bind in your downtime so damage becomes meaningless.

When summoning for actual action, don't wait until you are on the run. Wake up each morning and if you aren't trying to use a spirit higher than your magic, you can again summon and dismiss until you get a large number of services. Just sleep an extra hour or two to regain any stun damage. This is just good general summoning advice.

2.) My favorite trick with possession is to get Invoking metamagic and have a tradition that allows access to the Endowment great form power (Task and Guardian spirits.) This will allow you to negate some of the disadvantages of possession such as having the spirit be in control of your body and not you. Invoke a great form and have it Endow you with Possession. Now you can astrally project and posses yourself.

It seems like many people view Possession as a way to buff yourself, but it seems to me that it is potentially better as a way to negate enemies. If you have sufficiently powerful spirits so they can reliably possess the enemy you will gain allies and remove opposition in one fell swoop. This can also be useful when you can astrally scout and then possess a target on site for infiltration purposes. With a summon, bound spirit(s), and the endowment trick you can assemble a reasonable team nearly instantly at your target location and eliminate enemies beforehand. Task spirits can really shine here as well since you can potentially possess a target on-site and then use whatever bonus skills you will need for the job such as Hardware or Guardian spirits if you want the head of security to suddenly turn his weapons on his men.

One problem with possession is that the higher the force is, the more likely you are to be noticed as obviously possessed. This can be mitigated somewhat by spells such as Improved Invisibility or better yet Trid Phantasm.

My advice to GMs with players with possession (especially once they get the Metamagics like Channeling) is you can see the tactic/s from a mile away, be psychologically prepared for it.

By that I do not mean be prepared with countermeasures but be prepared to allow it to happen and allow it to be beneficial to the character. Why? Summoning and binding the spirit isn't easy and the karma investment into the metamagics aren't cheap either. The key here is to recognise that the player doing this isn't really looking to be "challenged".

GM's: Don't allow possession, don't use possession, profit from reduction in headache due to the removal of crappy possession rules.

I would punish this sort of metagaming. I'd start by slapping a threshold on all Summoning tests; say, [3]. That is, you need three hits to conjure anything at all. I'd increase the threshold by 1 for each subsequent attempt within an hour. So, if I have a magician who summons and dismisses three times in an hour, his tests would have thresholds of [3], [4], and [5], respectively. If he wants an explanation, I would tell him that the spirits don't appreciate being used as yo-yos.

If he insists on abusing summoning, I'd have a Great Form spirit pay him a visit to explain the error of his ways.

I hope you warn players -before- they make characters of such house rules. I would be pissed if a GM I was playing with started making arbitary rules to screw my character over. (If you've warned them -before- character creation, or at least before the game starts, then "summoner beware.")

Do I agree with bungee summoning? Not really; it's pretty annoying. But I would rather use in game options (Edge to resist, Spirit Bane, Mentor spirit having a talk with the summoner) to solve such problems.

That seems like a good way to get a spirit to slap you with the 'YOU'VE BEEN A DICK TO SPIRITS' mark, that all spirits can see with an assensing(1) test. Its like a sex-offender's list for spirits. And when you really need spirits on your side to use possession-based shenanigans for ultimate power, having your powerbase pissed at you seems like a really, really bad idea.


Also, has anyone mentioned SpiritWires with Channeling, and guardian/task/guidance spirits?

Such a GM move merits a sledgehammer with his name on it to his face. Followed by an anvil to his balls. After that if he does not recant, maybe he can take a bungee jump sans bungee cord.

When the player does this, this means he is not likely to appreciate your pissing on his parade.

Such a player move merits a shotgun blast to the face. Less poetic, perhaps, but it gets the point across.

Care to try again, without the childish references to violence?

Kindly note that I never said I would apply such measures to all magicians, only the ones who insist on being munchkins. If you abuse the system, the system will abuse you back. Resisting the summons with Edge and creative use of Spirit Bane are also excellent ideas; I'm not sure how effective the mentor spirit would be, though. If the magician is already behaving this way, he clearly does not hold spirits in high regard to begin with. In extreme cases, I might have his mentor abandon him.

Why wouldn't he be able to cast unless he has geasa? He sees the target, and doesn't require anything else by default.

I don't really consider it abuse. The magician is still risking drain and making tests and cutting deals with spirits in this case. There's already built in consequences to the situation and down time isn't always as peaceful as the runners hope it might be, which can be problem when you consider that summoning drain tends to be rather volatile. Further, some traditions such as Black Magic have a somewhat adversarial relationship with spirits to begin with, after all, so searching for a spirit you can mentally dominate is hardly out of character. If someone really pushes their luck for long enough I might have a Spirit use Edge now and again as per the RAW suggestions, but I agree with toturi insofar that your reaction to the idea seems like an overreaction, particularly since frankly, it rather makes sense that Magicians would do this sort of thing.

There is precident in SR history for Mentors abandoning their magicians, in extreme situations. Which is what would happen,if a magician doesn't listen to his Mentor spirit (some Mentor spirits exempt).

And that isn't the "system abusing back," that's changing the rules when the player is doing something which is legitimate (though annoying). As mentioned, warn the players before hand about such rules, or talk to the player about his techniques if you have problems with it.

That's the thing: he's not cutting deals. He's summoning a spirit, then saying (to at least some of them) "You don't owe me enough to make it worthwhile for me to keep you around, so piss off." Thus, the angry spirits. Get enough spirits pissed at you, you're going to have trouble summoning new ones.

Nothing like and ITG in his finest.

Violence? This is not violence, it simply aids to get the point across more emphatically.

Care to try again, without the childish phallic reference?

It is not munchkinism. It is the rules. The system cannot be abused, it can only be used. The system allows such, thus it should be allowed to happen. The player character can do this, so can the non-player characters. Factoring "feelings" or how the magician treats his "spirits" is simply another GM house rule.

Ah, but he is not saying that, he is saying, "I am sorry. But you do not seem to be the type that is willing to work for me long term, you are free to go." That's a response that could come from a Charisma based mage. A Logic based mage would go, "I regret to inform you that your services are terminated due to your lack of commitment. Please vacate my spirit limit. Thank you." Intuition may go, "You know dude, you really aint cut out for this kind of thing, man. Sorry but come on... 1 service? Since you don't wanna work for me, you can leave, man."

So would you rather he send the Spirit to go pick up the laundry first? Okay, so technically minor tasks such as "Hand me that spanner," don't even cost services, but hopefully you get the drift. From a roleplaying stand point, yes, spirits may be miffed that someone doesn't seem to be happy with the "standard" deal. But frankly, someone ceding services is likely just a somewhat annoying situation but still preferable to being summoned and immediately pressed into combat.

Actually it is a setting conceit functioning on the theory that spirits are more then just random piles of numbers waiting to come at a casters will.

Except it's explicitly stated in the books that spirits edge rolls when an abusive magician summons them and do everything in their power to bring the guy down.

The problem is that what constitutes treating a spirit poorly is frankly rather open to interpretation. Most times its seems to me thatt GMs approach this situation less in terms of "What would a Spirit actually want to avoid doing given the tradition and stakes?"and more in terms of "I can use this to keep the Magician from getting out of hand."

Tenegar:
That's not metagaming... you know how many services are owed when you get the spirit... and really it is quite draining. Remember spirits cause 2 drain per hit on their resistance test.


Anyhow on possession spirits and traditions:
The biggest problem w/ them is the rules are in many ways similar but not very well defined in others. And a lot of people (especially beginners) don't take note of all their drawbacks. In a way, this is due to poor editing, you have rules scattered all over (vessel rules here, power rules here, etc... confusion even among the writers).


The binding cost argument is a red herring. While yes you do tend to keep a stable of bound spirits. For most purposes, you don't use your bound spirits, you just summon on the fly. ESPECIALLY high force spirits, you don't bind them, it's too risky, but you do summon them unbound.

That much said, it generally takes more services to do things w/ possession than materialization. (a materialize spirit can just do it at will... a possession needs to be ordered to attack someone or a group to possess it. possession itself is an attack. (stop and think about it this way... 3 runners vs. 2 guards... runners summon a spirit... it's now a 4 on 2... possession... you 'capture' a guard and turn it right into a 4 on 1 as one guard 'switches' sides).

Then there's the extra 'cost' of channeling... which gives you two benefits... 1. you save big time on services... w/o channeling you can issue commands through the mental link yes, however changing your commands requires burning through services (this is true of both materialization and possession, however you're more limited in doing things for yourself while self-possessed). However, once you have it, it's the best of both worlds... you get the buff bonuses of channeling w/o the penalties to your ability to cast spells or otherwise.

Others have pointed out, it's very usefull to have a spirit to possess your body while you're out and astral.

Also, people always forget about "If the possession fails or the spirit is banished, the critter may not attempt to possess the vessel again til..." sunrise/sunset. (p101).

Also, many aren't aware that possessed objects are clearly magical and will exhibit some thing to this effect... such as a shamanic mask on the emotitoy clearly making it more than a mere pet and a good chance of garnering a negative reaction. (noticing magic... 6 - spirits force, at least force 5 spirit to overcome object resistance)

Then you hit other items... possessed mages are far harder targets than even the beefiest street sams... especially because the street sam normally doesn't have the wilpower + counterspelling to resist magic... while the mage normally does! So they don't have that weakness.

For each point of force you gain 1 point of agility & str (attacking), 1 point of reaction (avoiding getting hit), 1 point of body (soaking damage), Higher body means, 2 points more worn armor (or just using something simple like a ballistic shield to quickly gain an extra 6/4 armor, or putting on PPP).

So a very modest force4 spirit, results in potentially *+16* dice above and over their starting avoid/soak dice to avoid/resist damage for a possessed mage.

Then you get diehards claiming that ItNW is cumulative on top of the 4 dice per point of force above to damage soak above rather than being a seperate special armor test. Despite that hardened armor power is the only one in the book which does not explicitly state that it's cumulative w/ your worn armor total. (I won't derail thread by arguing it here... we can link to where this has been hashed out... I will only state, that Hardened armor is unique in being the only armor NOT listed as cumulative and including this point of contention for sake of completeness).

Another source of armor then comes into play, worn armor! (you can possess it to enhance it's rating...)
For real fun... get military armor! Give it "strength upgrade"... and watch the spirit enhance that and the armor!


Another one, is people pull out the FAQ (which clearly violates RAW in many cases and IS NOT an errata and is also 3 years out of date and not been maintained)... and claim that possession allows raising attributes over augmented maxes. When in SR4a it repeats... magic/tech, etc. can not raise an attribute above the augmented limit.



After this point... you start to run into a real problem as a GM... how do you challenge the possession player? Anything you can do which can realistically challenge him... will fry any other party member. And I am squarely against 'picking on' one player and ignoring the rest. When you need anti-vehicle weapons to even dent the character (or chunky salsa the others)... you got a problem.

Non-combat challenges are generally the only option left at this point. However, again, the character can be nigh impossible to kill once buffed... and this leaves only the old-fashioned surprise attack sniper route, or orbital cow drop type attacks.


I'll add this as well... materialization can be a problem as well... especially the high-charisma army of spirits types... (expensive to bind all of them... but turns them into a one man walking force of nature). However, it's generally less so, as you don't have so many things stacking together in a single unit... (plus things like elemental damage, and called shots for damage can quickly even the odds for mundanes against them).

Except that the mage isn't treating his spirits poorly. He is summoning his spirits and letting them go, until he gets those spirit that are more willing to work for him.

If you owe someone 1 dollar, and he says to forget it, is that abuse? The spirit owes the mage 1 service, the mage says, "Forget it. You are free to go." That's abuse? That's mistreating the spirit?

It might be abuse if they magically port me away from whatever I'm doing to tell me this, with the implication that I didn't owe them before hand. I guess it goes down to roleplaying or not. If you see the mechanical act of summoning spirits as simply commanding them to appear and compelling them to serve and then banishing them back to the great wherever if youc an't command them sufficiently then yes I could easily see it as breeding resentment.

Aha. So, a sledgehammer to the face, an anvil to the groin, and tossing someone off a bridge don't count as violence, but shooting does? I'd love to know what kind of logical contortions you use to justify that, but frankly, I suspect I'd need a Ph.D. in "Batshit Crazy" to follow them.

Quote edited to reflect what you actually posted, as opposed to what you ninja-edited it to say afterward.

All I changed was firearm to phallic. At no time did I refer to shooting as violent.

However, it seems it is time for me to remind people of my sig. Again.

Nope! I didn't read the rest of this post, but what you say here is flat out wrong. Digital Grimoire even uses the same example, of possessing a guard.

It said should, not must, i agree with the logic, in addition to the already messed up rules of possesion the ability to get two services for the price of one effectively "autokill" a grunt plus have him now fighting on your side plus bennes, yea I'd say two services is a small price to pay for that.

Emy... Just like Lurker says... should not must...

The rules regarding uses of services... and those for combats are generally well understood. (Multiple uses of a power in one combat can be considered a single service... though I am making the point here that the possession power itself is an attack power).


And what happens when the spirit doesn't possess that particular guard? It can't try and possess him again for a while... is that a burned service....

I agree w/ the spirit of what you've said in one way... a combat counts as a single service... now what happens after combat? The guard is still possessed or the spirit just leaves it's newly possessed form as it's service is now ended? Or do you use up a service now to keep him possessed... generally 'turning' the units against one another is FAR FAR more effective than adding additional units to a fight.


I'll also add another item... generally I don't see problems w/ possession as a GM tool (like toxic spirits and traditions and other NPC items). However, I think it's quite problematic when players start to run roughshod with it and the GM needs to challenge the player w/o mulching the other players.

I understand people feel strongly about the very existence of Possession Traditions. It has indeed been talked about in other threads whether possession should even be allowed ... lots.

Let's proceed from here with the following base position:

A) I am the GM. I am Creative, and can make any situation fun and frightening for the players. Hear me roar! (A bit over the top?)

B) I allow Possession Traditions in my game.

C) I allow the Physical Attribute maximum to be 1.5 X the sum of the Force of the spirit and the natural (unaugmented by tech or magic) Attribute of the vessel at the time of possession.

D) I allow the ItNW to sum with worn armor. Yes, these last two allow for a physical 'tank'.

Now, how do the players and I have fun with this. What other cool things can the player do? What pitfalls of possession should the players and I watch out for? That is to say, what are the pluses and minuses of possession that we can all know about so nobody is seen to be trying to pull the wool over anybody's eyes?

I quoted the part of your post that I was specifically disproving. I then quoted Digital Grimoire, proving you wrong.

What was unclear about that?



I agree... but I didn't write the example in Digital Grimoire.

As an addendum, page 95 of Street Magic says something very similar regarding how many services (1) it takes for a spirit to manifest/possess a vessel and do something physical.

So, for example, a Possession tradition mage should understand that if she orders a spirit to possess a particular opponent, and the possession attempt fails, the spirit will wait to try the possession tomorrow. The mage may want to reassign the spirit, but that is one service gone.

A more efficient command may be, "Take possession of one of those guards and attack the rest."

I accidentally hit post... while re-reading your post... I took the last part for a sig.

However, a lot of people try and use bound spirits just to buff items.


Someone making a kick ass possessed bike like in Ghost Rider. It's going to take a service just to get the spirit to possess it, it's not something effortless or trivial to do such as a normal tradition just having normal spirit materialize/dematerialize at will.


Another example is a self-possessed mage w/o channeling. It's going to take services to keep changing orders. however, so long as you're dealing w/ a non-bound spirit, services are relatively cheap and easy to come by.

Street magic would strongly disagree with you, and if you as a GM did that to me, your game world would get very 'interesting' as ceo's start jumping out of windows....

Pg 103 street magic

Then there has been lengthy discussions about what is and is not a service, and while the general rule is it takes a service to use a power, that single service may invoke several if not all the powers of the spirit, multiple times over an extended duration depending on exactly how it is worded. For example, "Kill all corpsec in that building" is a single service regardless of the number of guards in that building, and depending on the teperment of the spirit, ie Guardian or Beast, and the character's tradition, that may well be conscidered just fine, and in fact very 'fun' by the spirit in question. Also it NEVER costs a service to tell a spirit to stop using a power, or to end a previously requested service.

Fine, so I'll order the spirit to get me a beer, and clean my house then release it...

Keep in mind the spirit is PAID for its services by the magic which is causing the drain to the summoner in the first place. So imagine someone paying you a day's wages to do some 'work' for them. They pay you in advance, and when you go to see what they want, they say 'nothing'. Most people at this point take the free money they just got, and go happily home. You however would advocate attacking the person who just gave you money..... I think you may wish to rethink your stance on this topic, or seek counseling.

It is suggested = strong disagreement, huh? Way to tantrum dude. You are a mage, not a spirit. If you want to roleplay a spirit that is an option. I would trust a very strong RPer to handle his own spirit duties, but I don't meet that many RPers capable of translating and filtering their own intentions through a spirit seive for the benefit of good aesthetics in storytelling.

And, calling off a service isn't a service, but changing the parameters of a service requires a new service. The point being that a possessed character tends to be careful about committing to actions, and rightfully so. You obviously missed the whole point of that post so that you can instead feel affronted. Gratz. The point was, self-defense is not a service, so any time someone gets aggressive, you can kill them without expending a service, which negates the need for a thick-headed "kill all the guards in that building" service.

I see, so pointing out what the rules say is supposed to happen is having a tantrum. I'm going to keep this civil and suggest you do the same, because otherwise bull will make his rounds and neither of us will like it.


Yes I am a mage, and if the gm wishes to go against the suggested method of play for my character, I will go against the suggested method of play for his game, and suicide rates of important NPC's will skyrocket.


And the gm telling you, that because he feels like ignoring the contents of the book regarding how your character is supposed to function, you don't actually get to play your character whenever you use the abilities provided in the book is a good way to lose players, and the respect of any potential players.


You however stated ending hostilities DID require a service, NOT using concealment anymore required a service, and the termination of other abilities DID require a service. Now you're saying that when using abilities your tradition is founded upon you effectively lose control of your character in direct contradiction to the contents of the book that ability is in. If the GM did something as asshatish as have a spirit I summoned go pick a fight without my orders or consent, while driving me, and I didn't have the spirit bane quality, the rest of the session would involve every named NPC, and any unnamed ones I could think of dying from suicide, and me leaving the table after.

Wow! I disagree with almost everything you (Falconer) and you (LurkerOutThere) say on this subject. The possession rules work fine, ime, and I think a lot of the problems people are having are due to not understanding or applying them properly.



Edge alters a lot of things and when GMs are lax on controlling Edge, many aspects of the game become distorted. I remember the last time we had a big discussion on Possession, a poster was absolutely raging about how utterly over-powered it was. Turned out his GM refreshed Edge pretty much every fight and the guy was popping Edge points like pez. (He had other misunderstandings about possession as well, but I wont get into that here). First off, I don't know how other GM's handle this, but downtime in my game isn't a sea of infinite Edge refreshes. If someone blows their Edge before the start of an actual run, then they've still got to wait till Edge refreshes at some approved moment. That's a cost. Also, as others have noted, if you're spending Edge routinely on summoning and binding tests, then sooner or later, the spirits might start to resent you pushing them so hard and start spending Edge themselves. And that's a fight you don't want to start.



As mentioned, if you're using a spirit for personal augmentation, then a low force spirit isn't good enough. No magician is going to say: "I've got an extra two Body now, I'm going to plunge into melee". You want a decent force spirit, say 4, maybe more. If you're doing that every morning, then you're running a risk. Say you are a pretty good summoner, Magic 5, Summoning 5, combined drain attributes of 10, and you routinely summon a Force 4 every morning. The probability of each of 0 to 4 hits by the spirit is as follows:
0 hits or 2DV = 20%
1 hits or 2DV = 40%
2 hits or 4DV = 30%
3 hits or 6DV = 10%
4 hits or 8DV = 1%

Typical soak is 3 hits for our mage, so what you're saying is that every morning, a person should get up and one morning in three start the day getting punched in the head and spending an extra hour in bed to recuperate, one morning in 10, spending three extra hours in bed to recuperate and once every four months take 5DV damage. I'm not saying you can't do this - I'm just pointing out that relying on the law of averages wont help and that in most games, you have to wait for Edge to refresh so if you're using it for this, it's at a cost.



No rules system is perfectly air-tight. Sometimes a GM has to make a sanity ruling.

EDIT: Am breaking post here as I've reached the maximum number of quotes allowed...

...continued



You need a fairly powerful spirit to possess someone reliably. This tactic is best reserved for negating powerful, mundane enemies. I regard it as normally a waste when used against grunts because you gain so little. You remove the enemy at the cost of an action phase to order the spirit to attack when if it's just a grunt, you could have likely just stunbolted him. If it's a bound spirit, you're removing that grunt at the cost of a few thousand nuyen / number of services. That's orders of magnitude above the cost of the Sam's three round burst. And in terms of the ally gained, it's just a grunt so it doesn't add much and there's an action phase delay of two before you gain anything (phase 1, order spirit, phase 2 attack). Particular circumstances alter this, such as gaining control of someone in a tactically advantageous position, but as a rule, it's an uncertain tactic that doesn't gain you so very much. Most of the time, you'd be better off with Control Thoughts.



Some people say that as your special attributes (e.g. Magic) are replaced by those of the spirit, this means you can't access your own magic and cast spells. That's not explicit RAW, just an extension of some people's interpretation of fluff. But even without that, possession will seriously mess up your spellcasting. For a start, unless you have Channeling metamagic, you don't have access to your skills such as Sorcery. That really does suggest that you can't cast your spells and the spirits "mind is in control and does not have access to the vessel's knowledge or skillset" pretty much clinches it. If you do have Channeling metamagic, then you have access to your skills but your Magic rating is likely lower (unless you've summoned a significantly powerful spirit with all the risks and costs that entails) and your drain pool is likely to be lower due to reduced mental attributes for the same reason. Also keep in mind that regardless of any of this, if you're casting spells whilst possessed, you're not getting much use out of your spirit other than a very pricey Armour spell. A materialisation mage will send a spirit to attack and support it with spells. A possession magician using self-buffing can't do that: It's attack or cast weaker spells than normal.



I take it back about disagreeing with everything you say. THIS is a sentiment I fully support.



Gah! I'd be careful with that. Being able to summon and bind your spirits in advance is an important requirement. If you're summoning high force spirits in combat often, you're living dangerously. If you're avoiding the "binding materials vs. bullets" issue by summoning on the fly, you're taking some chances. But maybe you're not wrong. You mention keeping some bound spirits on hand, presumably for emergencies. Okay, but the cost of binding is still something to keep in mind when discussing the powerfulness of Possession. Give that up, and you're giving up a lot of reliability and the capacity to do your high force summoning in a safe environment with medical care and time to recuperate on hand.

EDIT: Again, hitting maximum quotes...

...continued



I disagree with this and the books back me up. You just tell the spirit to kill the guards and if it needs to do something to achieve that, it just does it. In the case of possession spirits, that's possessing one of them. Same with a matrerialised spirit. When you tell it to kill the guards, you don't have to use an extra service to get it to use its Elemental Attack power. If that power is the sensible way to do something, the spirit will probably use it. If you summon an Air spirit and tell it to get you safely out of somewhere, it's likely to use its Concealment power (costing a service). Spirits, at least ones with moderate Force, are intelligent creatures, not lawyers, imo. In fact, Digital Grimoire actually gives a specific example that supports this where a spirit with 1 service left is instructed to use its Confusion power on some guards and possesses a fallen PC in order to do so. GM's should provide some flexibility, not nickle and dime PCs to death (but at the same time, be ready to not let PCs lawyer-speak spirits into giving out freebies).



Sorry - channeling opens you up to casting spells again, but you're still using the Magic rating of the spirit and the lowest of either of your Mental Attributes. Unless you have a particularly high force spirit, that's going to mean reduced power and reduced drain resistance for a lot of magicians. Also keep in mind that if you're casting spells whilst possessed, you're not getting value for money.



That's a good catch. Something to add to the list of tactics if you have the sort of GM who's likely to hassle an unattended body.



"Diehards" You make it sound like people carrying on fighting after a battle is lost. ItNW is cumulative and most people agree with that. Some people seeing a lack of explicit statement in one piece of text and then leaping in to say that this means something isn't so, when it fits with everything else both fluff and rules, is another matter.



Digital Grimoire addresses this, highlighting both the inappropriateness of this for many traditions and gives the example of the increased Ballistic and Impact ratings of possessed armour (consider the implciations of that on your ItNW argument, btw) badly hampering the wearer's mobility. (Digital Grimoire, pg. 11)



Possession doesn't allow raising attributes over augmented maximums. It replaces stats with those of the combined entity. Street Magic came out over three years ago. If the FAQ is three years old, then that's not an issue. And the FAQ doesn't need to be an errata because there's nothing to errata. The FAQ simply clears up misunderstandings. You can cover your ears if you want to but it makes it very, explicitly clear that the intention and meaning of the rules is that Possession and Inhabitation attribute ratings are independent from the vessel's limitations:


You can't get more explicit than that. It even specifies that the resulting dual entity has new calculated maximums. You can rule differently in your game if you like, but it's neither rules as written nor rules as intended.



This is off topic for the actual thread, but it's fairly easy to challenge a Possession based PC. You just squeeze the group in ways that other players can handle but the magician can't. Cut off or limit their funds for a bit - maybe they have a couple of months in the wilderness on a run or a globe-trotting adventure like the Artifact series or parts of Ghost Cartels. The samurai will be able to handle securing bullets and reloading a lot more easily than the magician can get binding materials and carry out summoning rituals. Given them extended battles. If the target makes a get away in a car, the samurai, shrugs, holster's his gun and pulls it out again when they've caught up. The possession magician's spirit says: "I have protected you this battle as agreed. Now I go home". Similarly, if the guards come in three groups, the samurai's bullets will last but not the magician's spirits. A possessed magician is dual natured. Send a magician or a spirit with Innate Spell Casting against him floating just out of reach and straffing the Earth-bound magician with spellfire. Or have three Astral spirits, lowish force, attack the magician on the Astral plane where his friends can't protect him. He'd better have good Astral Combat abilities because he's out of luck otherwise. Have battles take place in public places where a magician suddenly turning into Linda Blair will cause problems. Set up ambushes where the delay in putting on your spirit armour becomes a big issue. If you're jumped by two gangers, what do you do? Stand there commanding your spirit and then stand there getting possessed whilst they wail on you with baseball bats? Or do you try to fight them as a mundane? Push the dual creature beyond the bounds of the magician's own body so that he can't stop fighting (ending the service) without falling over dead. Use the spirit's weaknesses against him - possessed by Fire Elemental? Hose him down. Play spirits as the intelligent entities they are - have the spirit disagree on tactics or basically outdo the player. Keep in mind that Channelling is only a truce with the spirit, not gaining a new PC.

There are lots of ways to challenge a possession based PC. Just don't let them dictate the terms of engagement.



Steel Lynx with high-velocity weapon. No problem. If you really can't beat the character, then no problem. Fall back. That's what you'd do in real life, right? You're not obliged to run the game like a D&D encounter. Let them steal the prototype from the lab then shoot them in the back on the way out. All you have to do is delay them until reinforcements arrive. Besides, you're arguing on the basis of high-force and powerful magicians. If that's what they are, then you need to be sending them against commensurate opposition.

Some quick comments knasser...

The FAQ is actively NOT maintained, and fails spectacularly at the primary purpose of a FAQ... to clarify (not change) rules. Anymore it is as often wrong as not. Muspellsheimr, myself, and others actively point this out. In many spots whoever wrote the FAQ entry clearly didn't read the clear simple wording of the rulebook. (or the rulebook changed after it was written, or they confuse prior editions).

Digital grimoire shows similar effects. He summons a guardian spirit with 'short arms' skill?! What exactly is short arms skill? It seems the author is still half-confused w/ the SR3 rules (where the skill is SMG's).

I challenge you to point out where in *SR4* it says that ItNW is cumulative. It is nowhere stated anywhere. Hardened armor uses a completely different mechanic than normal armor and is considered a seperate non-stacking armor total and nowhere not once is it stated the power is cumulative. (see below) I believe this perception comes from prior editions where armor was handled differently.

Again this confusion I think comes from prior editions, where armor is handled very differently than in SR4.

Also, ritual materials yes are hard to buy in your example, but they're actually very easy to refine and create using enchanting and collection rules. If you're out in the wilderness you're in prime terrain to collect raw materials for them as well. So even that is quickly covered up w/ just some minor investment in freebie knowledge skills, enchanting, and some reasonably priced magical tools.


The final point is a rundown of why a lot of people feel that possession is badly balanced compared to materialization.
Okay possess the guard exactly the same as materialization if you take the books suggestions... okay

1. you've just taken out a guard in the act of possessing... (and 2x force vs. standard mental attributes isn't even a challenge). A materialization spirit on the other hand takes a round to materialize and hasn't even attacked anything yet in the presence of coming to the physical. (it attacks much faster, and MUCH more effectively!)
2. the spirit does not arrive 'naked' as a materialized spirit would, instead it now has a large amount of equipment buffs stacked on top of it.
3. Unlike a materialized spirit w/ it's set of attributes isn't merely force +- fixed stats. It is Force + character stats (which are almost ALWAYS SUPERIOR to materialized +- stat blocks... find me a guard w/ any negative physical stats!).
3a. on top of this... IF the FAQ is followed (and contravenes the reprinted SR4a). Those new limits aren't even subject to augmented maxes... this only gets worse.
4. Further insult to injury is when you claim now on top of a guard w/ reasonable equipment/armor etc... it now has hardened quality AND even further armor to resist mundane damage. (again minimum 4x force of spirit... +1rea, +1bod, +2ItNW)... you start to see where things get a bit you of whack, force 6 spirit means at minimum +24 dice of damage resistance!!! which more than doubles the number of dice that most street sams are rolling... even heavily armored trolls rarely have that much to start, and that's not starting, that's, ADDITIONAL.
5. This is on top of rules that make even high force materialization spirits problematic.
6. Possessed military armor allows for such wonkery as increased strength (beyond augmented limits), mobility upgrade (non-encumbering), and armor upgrade.... of course getting past that OR5 is a big hurdle!
7. You have people who claim that changing the parameters of a service does not use another service which devolves into the whole what uses up a service argument. IMO: view the spirit as a drone/pilot... if you'd have to issue a command to the drone pilot to change what it's doing you just used another service.
8. Even channeling... a force 4 or 5 is almost always going to match or exceed attributes. And by the time you raise those higher, you should be able to summon higher force spirits.

To other posters....
Yes summoning on the fly can work wonders... Spirit only resists w/ force. Use your edge on the drain, and centering is very usefull to you if you are a summoner type magician. And drain can be first aided away, and so long as it's stun, an hours rest will normally take off most/all of it.

And yes a common mistake GM's make is that spirits are NPC's (both Materialization & possession)... and players should never have direct access to their edge. And RARELY should even use edge against the players. Should try and subvert/pervert the players orders.

Send them to Lagos.


In all fairness, you are making the claim, so the burden of proof lies on you. Hardened armor does indeed stack in other situations, for excemple in vehicle combat, when the vehicle armor is simply added to the PC armor, when the character inside is targeted instead of the vehicle itself.
And even disregarding that, the simple LACK of a statement clarifying whether they stack or not is not proof to the contrary

D2F:
And I have made that argument, repeatedly, and not seen one person counter anything I said. They just repeat, it stacks it stacks it stacks. And never cite where in the rulebooks it grants that ability. Normally the comeback is fluff.

I've even gone so far as to cite every single source of stacking armor, AND the operative cumulative with, or grants additional dice... etc.


And in the vehicle case you're wrong. The vehicle does not grant additional armor to passengers, it functions AS A BARRIER. It's no different than shooting through a wall. Spirits and possession are not treated as barriers.



And how exactly does sending them to Lagos challenge them more than otherwise? yes it's a disease ridden fever swamp (figuratively and literally).

I am not arguing whether they stack or not. I am saying you cannot find a quote that says they don't stack, either. As such you cannot back up your claim with text, the very thing you ask dissenting opinions to do. That's quite hypocritical, especially since one could argue that the burden of proof is on you.



And since you "cited every single source of stacking armor", you obviously came across this little nugget:



Granted, that does not concern immunity to normal weapons. However, it does present a case, where hardened armor stacks with regular worn armor. The underlying logic is the same as the one used when referring to ItnW.
You claim they don't stack, just because it is not specifically mentioned. Occam's razor, however, claims otherwise. That's why the burden of proof is on oyu and as long as you cannot find a ruling that backs your position, you cannot rule it out.



Nn-n-ntr.w!

Lagos is a mostly rating 1 - 3 Toxic zone, mixed with a few rating 1-3 death zones. Unless you allow for toxic or shadow mages, your possession characters will have a LOT of trouble in a rating 3 toxic zone...