Beats me. People seem to have this idea that the GM has to provide a series of rooms where characters progress from encounter to encounter. I don't know about you, but my games are nothing like that. First game I ran with my last group, they marched into the complex after their target and proceeded to kick in doors to find him. He watched them on the security cameras until they'd moved away from his exit route, and then he walked out of the building.

Very good catch. Welcome to Dumpshock, btw.

K.

Actually its logic limits number of active foci and Magic limits total number of foci. Magic x 5 limits total ratings of foci. SR4a pg 199. either way though, no way Bear Girl can use all those.

Let me propose a slightly different build, one with more individual survivability, although still no real outside combat use.

Shapeshifter: Bear
Voodoo Tradition

Attributes
Body: 10
Agility: 3
Reaction: 3
Strength: 7
Charisma: 5
Intuition: 1
Logic: 2
Willpower: 4
Edge: 3
Magic: 5

Skills
Summoning(Guardian Spirits): 5
Counterspelling (Combat): 5
Spellcasting (Combat): 1
Binding (Guardian): 1

Qualities
Restricted Gear x2(Military Grade Armor and force 4 power focus)
Magician
Mentor Spirit (Sun, Guardian, Combat)
Combat Monster
Hunted 3
Some other 10 point Negative quality I don't feel like looking up right now

Spells
Armor
Stunbolt
Increased Reflexes

Gear
Military Grade Armor
Power Focus 4
Sustaining Focus 2
Modded Ares Alpha (Ex-rounds in clip)
Mods (Not really certain if all these are neccessary, just buying all the recoil mods I know stack)
-High Velocity
-Powered Folding Stock
-Sling (Doesn't stack for recoil, I know, but I can have the weapon ready and not actually be carrying it)
-Personalized Grip
Accessories
-Gas Vent 3
-Gyro Stabilization (annoying to carry around, only for when things get really hairy)
-Shock Pad

Bound Spirits (Force 5)
Guardian (2 services) (Psychokinesis)
Guardian (2 services) (Concealment)
Guardian (3 services) (Automatics)
Man (3 services) (Armor)
Man (3 servces) (Stunbolt)

There, something sufficiently broken and yet playable for my standards. This character has 18 dice for binding tests, 9 dice to resist drain, edge for when things get hokey, a number of bound spirits with large amounts of services, 28 dice to resist damage when not possessed + 15 regen dice, a nice gun for those silly guys at ranged (assume a long list of cheap vision mods is on here), and some spell essentials for when magic really becomes a problem. With full preparation and a force 8 Guardian spirit, this character has a reaction of 11, 55 dice to resist bullets (18 Bod + 18 Military + 16 ITNW + 3 Spirit's Armor Spell), 17 boxes on his physical track and 26 regen dice when possessed, an 18P -2 AP weapon that it fires with 21 dice (spirit can use an external smartlink), 16 dice for counterspelling (Guardian Spirits get it as a base skill and as long as your not chanelling you get to use the spirit's mental attributes for resistance). The only low point to this build is the fact that he can get surprised, meaning that he'll have to use his force 5 bound guardian spirit for combat instead of summoning a force 8, and that drain is still a bitch, he's still going to take as much as 4 or 5 drain on bad rolls even with edge, although that shouldn't happen too often. He also relies on military grade armor, meaning he won't be fully effective unless obvious illegality isn't an issue, so maybe some secondary, more legal armor is in order. Still, against a threat meant to challenge an entire team of runners, he stands alone as a beat machine, able to withstand any mundane threat and highly resistant to most magical ones. Now let the debate rage on!

also, @knasser- I'm highly aware that Ally spirits break possession beyond repair. I've just been focusing on chargen/early game issues, Ally spirits require a large amount of karma to become truly fearsome and I don't want someone arguing that anybody could be broken once they've got 40 or 50 karma under their belt.

That's a bit nicer. You've gone less all out to reach extremes of brokeness than the earlier attempt and consequently managed to make a more viable character. I do have some comments to make on it but I'll have to do it tomorrow as I'm about to crash. I'll just note that you give up a lot of the versatility of a magician in terms of spells and spellcasting ability to achieve this character. Also, you managed to pick the worst flaw in the book, imo - Combat Monster. But it's a more interesting build and less of an easily tripped up glass hammer than the other. You also taken non-average drain rolls into consideration. I'll make some fuller comments later.

Peace,

K.

Oh, agreed. I'm a big believer in using the astral against the dual natured, and I think it's one of the biggest weaknesses they have that people rarely want to talk about. For one thing, purely astral forms gain an extra initiative pass over their materialized versions. I was just making the general observation that burst fire isn't completely useless for mundanes dealing with high hardened armor thresholds-- you just have to weigh the benefits of a wide bursts against narrow more carefully than usual. It's not a great option for a Force 8 possessed outlier, but against more typical magical threats it's definitely something for the Samurai and riggers of the world to keep in mind.

I have to be honest here...when I read an example like this, the first thing that comes to mind isn't that possession is broken; I sure get the feeling that SHIFTERS are broken, though. Take the Magic out of the equation, shift some points around here and there, and you have a beast of a street samurai.

Sure, I get it...this guy is bad enough without having a Force 8 spirit possessing him, so of course he's going to be ridiculous with a Force 8 spirit possessing him. That still doesn't show me that as a rule possession mages are broken.

Show me some numbers with a stock Radical Eco-Shaman turned possession mage that are mind-blowingly uber-powerful and I might get more of a sense of the moral outrage that the possession power raises up in you, but all that I get out of these exercises in breaking the chargen rules is that it's possible to break the chargen rules.

double post

OK, I sat down and actually created a troll possession mage. The *only* thing wonky about it is that he would create his own tradition... probably something called "Manifest Destiny" or whatever. He basically only summons spirits that look like people or animals (Guardian, Guidance, Task, Man, Beast).
Base Stats:

I would like to point out the wonders of spoiler tags.


You make a very solid point. Shifters are easily over the top (although I have never seen bear-shaped mil-spec armor), and character creation can be abused quite heavily.
However, you will encounter players that push or break the system. Some will do it to satisfy an outlying concept, some will do it because they can.
My concern with possession is an extension of the tendency for magic to overshadow other elements and players.

An interesting tactic that pushes this:

OF course, all of this could be done with a Task (or other) spirit without Possession.

This is kind of interesting. So, if I understand this character correctly, standard operating procedures (SOPs) lead to death one time in twenty... damage of some sort considerably more often. Plus, he has no Edge for at least the first run after each Binding.

The procedure listed above uses Restricted Gear to get the binding materials the first time. After that, the character has to get them through regular/irregular channels. Availability 16 requires a Negotiation +Charisma (16, 2 days) Test. But he has no Negotiation Skill, so he defaults to 2 dice from his CHA 3. To get 16 successes. Every time he wants to activate his SOPs. The ones that kill him one time out of twenty. And the evasion of damage requires the use of bound Force 6 spirits which only require materials that come from a Negotiation +Charisma (12, 2 days) Tests. With 2 dice.

Do I have this straight?

So when he fails the acquisition of Binding materials, he's stuck with Summoned spirits only. At least, they don't kill him as often.

You are correct in that task spirits have the ability to use skills without the need for possession.
However Possession + Task spirits opens up possibilities that task spirits, possession or mental manipulations alone could not achieve.

One example is to have the mook from the previous example sabotage something he is guarding with a skill he does not possess.

The goal was to highlight a tactic available to possession traditions.
There are also a number of situations where it is more useful to have a skill personally than to summon a minion who can use it.

No, the 1st binding attempt leads to a death 1 time in twenty only if the 2 force 6 spirits on standby can't save you from an uncontrolled force 8. You can't really model that, plus the spirit is a possession spirit so it can't materialize... it would have to either possess you (but you have the spirit on standby to do that if you go unconscious) or it has to go possess someone else. It is likely that you could get away alive... but I just put forth the worst case scenario.

Rebinding would almost never result in a death since the bound spirit does not become uncontrolled on a rebinding.

Generally speaking, *most* groups of runners have a face that can do negotiations for you. I mean, it isn't like everyone negotiates their own deal with a Mr. Johnson.

Spirits don't materialize(/possess) when they are summoned, they manifest. A possession spirit can still manifest, so that part of the summoning wouldn't change.

hmmm, does that mean a possession spirit that you fail your summon check on, might just stick around astally, waiting to rip you a new one?

I kinda like that idea, a spirit patiently waiting to murder you if you ever go astral.

I was under the impression that to affect the physical world, not communicate, that a spirit either needs to materialize or possess something. If you screw up the binding of a materialization spirit they can do just that. The Force 8 spirit would need to possess either the person being possessed by the task spirit... or the summoner before the summoner is possessed by the spirit of man on stand by.

I read it again and see what you are saying now. At first I thought you were saying that the possession happens during the summoning process. If a spirit breaks loose all bets are off, obviously.

Just a mention, but if you go unconscious, then it's a race between your bound spirits and the hostile one. But if your bound spirit does possess you first, then you've just opened yourself up to being beaten on by the hostile spirit by becoming dual natured (as well as hampering the bound spirit by tying him to a physical form and starting his damage track off at nearly unconscious). If the hostile spirit wins, it's game over your bound spirits can't drive him off without hurting you.

Spirits are never obliged to leave once their services are completed. That's true of materialisation spirits and possession spirits. Of course, if you've invited the possession spirit to control your body, then it's a considerably more serious matter. Dangerous either way, though. You should always treat your spirits respectfully. Normally, I don't have spirits stick around, but it depends on their personality, and the higher force the stronger that personality is. I've had beast spirits stay on because they're enjoying the combat too much. Doesn't happen often, though.

K.

But they can't do anything to you when they're manifested, even if you were astrally perceiving during the ritual, you'd stop immediately once you passed out, and then it has to possess something to do something to you, which, if you're in your magical lodge, leaves it with somewhat limited options once your stand-by sprit has possessed you. I don't know though, I still think it's better to bite the drain and summon a high force spirit for a mission than actually risk death when binding it. Sure, the drain's going to hurt, but it's not going to outright kill you, and with a decent drain pool and bound task spirits with first aid, you can definetly bring drain down to manageable levels, even down to nothing. Plus, you'd never summon a high force spirit in combat or when time is an issue, situations like that call for lower force bound spirits who, while not quite as broken as a force 8 summon, can certainly make you the equal of any street sam. When you did summon a force 8, it would be at the beginning of the day or any time when you'd definitely have enough time to get first aid afterwards. Then you'd keep it on standby, at which point it's just like a bound spirit 'til the end of the day. Sure, every once in a while when you and your task spirit rolled extremely poorly and the force 8 rolled rather well you'd have to deal with 5P or so on your track, but more often than not it would be more like 1 or 2, well worth it for +8 to all your physical stats and an increase of all your mental stats to 8 and 16 ITNW.

And considering that a topic of interest so far has been the comparison of materialization spirits to possession spirits, lets look at the benefits a force 8 materialization spirit would give you has compared to a force 8 possession spirit.

Advantage of Possession spirits 1) Possession spirits can wear armor and have weapons
A force 8 possession spirit can wear armor fitted for whatever it's possessing, adding usually about 6 to its armor and as much as 18. How do you put armor on a materialization spirit? Are you going to use a service to get something fitted for an Aztec Guardian Spirit in the form of a Jaguar? And even if you do find armor that fits, how long is it going to take to put it on the spirit everytime in materializes? In the case of weapons, a materialization spirit, depending on its form and your tradition, may be able to carry a weapon if you carry one around for it and give it to him when he materializes, while you could either do the same for the possession spirit or have it use whatever weapons the body it possesses uses.

Advanatage of Possession spirits 2) Possession spirits almost always have higher attributes
Considering that guardian spirits tend to make the best combat spirits (IMO, not really a debate point), I'll use that for my example. In any situation where a possession mage is fighting living creatures and has a spirit as powerful as force 8 under his command he will be able to possess one of his enemies and gain its attributes, weapons, and armor. Sample attributes for guards given in SR4a gives them Body, Agility, and Strength of 3 and a Reaction of 4, 5 points higher than the stats of a materialized guardian spirit. And this advantage only increases with the power of your enemies. In a situation where a mage is fighting mechanical enemies, a possession spirit's options are more limited. While it's certainly possible for a spirit to possess a drone, the chances are a bit too low to rely on them in combat. In this situation, the materialization spirit has an offensive advantage, it can materialize and take the weapon you provide for it to deal effective damage against drones. But a possession spirit has a defensive advantage, it can possess you or your armor to make you virtually immune to a drone's bullets while you assault the drones with lightning bolts, and honestly, spells are really the better answer to drones than materialization or possession spirits anyway. Finally there's the magic opposition, which can take the form of a spirit vs spirit battle, a mage vs spirit battle, or an astral form vs spirit battle. In spirit vs spirit, it ends as either a tie or an advantage for the possession spirit, it will either have higher stats on the material plane than a materialization spirit or equal stats on the astral plane. This pattern persists for astral forms, who will have equal stats for astral combat. In a mage vs spirit battle, the spirit will possess the mage and win by jumping out a window and unpossessing before the fall. Seriously, I don't care how much you've buffed your intuition and willpower, they're still not 16. A materialization spirit in this situation gets hosed by a stunbolt the turn after it materializes because it can't take anything out on the turn it enters battle.

Advantage of Possession spirits 3) Possession spirits have mind control
Self-explanatory and mentioned earlier in this thread, a possession spirit takes out one enemy when it enters the battle. A materialization spirit has to take a turn materializing before it can do anything, and any enemy you meet is going to have a whole lot less trouble mowing down an energy being than his own ally. If your opponents have the means of taking out a force 8 spirit, at the very least they'll have to take out one of their allies too when you're using possession spirits.

Advantage of Possession 4) Channeling
A mage may use his possession spirit to buff his own stats, something that materialization spirits have no equivalent for. This can mean better mental stats for drain and a higher magic rating and more physical attributes for dodging and taking bullets, not to mention ITNW thrown into the bargain. This is something that materialization has no answer to and the main reason why possession is always a better option for summoners.

Advantage of Materialization 1)
Materialization spirits don't need a body or an object in order to appear, they just do. At lower forces and against drones this advantage is at its greatest. A summoner can summon a number of force 3 or so spirits onto a battlefield and have all of them be effective without having to worry about finding bodies for all of them. Of course, in most battles this is just going to mean a whole bunch of disrupted force 3 spirits, but it's a tactic. This also becomes important for utility summons, such as when you want to use search or something else which requires mobility. However, in most cases a well prepared possession mage can carry around prepared or natural vessls that even a low force spirit will be able to possess and gain the same benefit as a materialization mage would. Besides this, materialization spirits don't have anything that makes them a better choice than possession spirits.

I haven't seen anyone bring up anything that would justify preferring a materialization tradition over a possession tradition. Please, please, prove me wrong.

Yeah, I am not saying it was likely to escape but if you have any other friends/runners with you it might be possible. Still, without the backup plan, you have a 5% chance of dying or a 95% chance of having a character with potentially 70 soak dice. I don't know how often runners die, but I don't know if I would expect to live through 20 out of 20 runs as a "normal" character.

Fair enough. A lot of this all has to do with playing styles. In my games, the first bear-shifter example would be killed off by her own team as a liability. In a game where "you enter a 10'x10' office. A Steel Lynx is guarding a prototype" sort of game, then it's less of a problem (though that particular character build is going to implode regardless anyway). If you're shrugging and saying 20 runs then make a new char, that's fine. My feel is that most people try to make a character last longer than that, but game styles vary. I'll point out though that a 1 in 20 chance of killing yourself doesn't mean you live through 20 sessions. It means on average you life through 10 as that bad roll can happen in any of those 20 games. If it happens, it's a 1 in 4 that it happens in the first five games, remember.

K.

I know sn0mm1s IRL so I can vouch for the fact that he is well aware such a character would never see an actual game table. At least one of *our* game tables.

So, You deliberatly create a "Tradition" that has access to all of the very best spirits out there... Yeah, nothing wrong with that at all...

Keep the Faith

A little late to the party, but...

Knasser:
The FAQ is out of date.
The FAQ directly contradicts the Rules as Written in multiple instances.
The FAQ does not serve as Errata.
The FAQ is no longer supported; one of the developers (I forget who, & search fails on "FAQ") recently declared such - the FAQ no longer has any relevance whatsoever to the game.

Street Magic explicitly states that the Force of the possessing spirit is added to the Physical Attributes of the Vessel. Possession does not "create a new entity", and is not exempt from Augmented Maximums. On a guess, I would say you are thinking of Inhabitation. Your little "Ghost Cartels" example fails because there are several instances (if I remember correctly) of the NPC's "cheating" - as in they do not follow the rules.



Falconer:
Possession spirits are poorly written, but are not overpowering. Despite his failure in regards to the FAQ, Knasser has adequately addressed most of your issues.

On the subject of Immunity to Normal Weapons and armor stacking, it does. This is not because it fails to specify in it's description (which is a miserable failure of writing), or fluff, or whatever other reason, but because the rules for stacking armor apply to worn armor. I'm pretty sure you don't "wear" an immunity.

He doesn't need to make it, it's called "Voodoo"

It is newer than the material it covers and if nothing has been published that supercedes it, then it cannot be "out of date". No changes to the possession rules have come out since the FAQ was released.

The FAQ could not be clearer on the subject of possession. If you've found a mistake in some other part, it doesn't mean every part of it is wrong and especially not parts that are so simple and basic as this part is. A couple of people kept saying that what the rules said couldn't have been the developers' intent. The FAQ illustrates otherwise.

The only people who suggest that it does are the ones who keep bringing it up so they can say that it doesn't. This seems the fourth or fifth time in this thread that someone has told us all that "the FAQ isn't an errata". I'd like you to point to where anyone said that it did. The FAQ doesn't need to be an errata because it isn't trying to change anything that's published. Nothing anyone has said has depended on the FAQ changing anything so its status as errata is irrelevant except for that status being some people's favourite strawman.

The possession rules aren't drawn from the FAQ, they're drawn from the books. The FAQ is mentioned to show that what the book says is what it was intended to say. A couple of people said that the developers didn't mean to write what they did whilst the FAQ shows their intention very clearly. Unless you think that it's somehow possible for their past intentions to somehow be altered in time, then all this talk about how old the FAQ is has no relevance to showing what the intent of the rules was.



We have re-hashed this many times. And it's not my "little example", it's examples plural in a recent supplement and I don't know why you think adding deprecating adjectives to them carries any weight. And no, I'm not thinking of Inhabitation. I know the 4th edition rules perfectly as well as you do, perhaps better. The book states that a "combined entity is created", i.e. it's not one or the other of the old ones, it's something new. Your arguments are that we should discard the FAQ because you say it's discredited, disregard the book because it doesn't add a line under the given rules saying that we should believe what they say and that we should discard published examples because they're "my little example" and the writers cheated, whereas you know better.

I'm going to be offline for a while, so I wont be able to reply to anything for some time. Unless you can bring anything new to this other than repeating the same points I've addressed for probably the fourth time in this thread, I'm going to leave this here. My interpretation fits what is actually written, the people who wrote the rules agree it, published adventures agree with me. I don't know what more I can ask, to be honest.

K.

Once your stand-by spirit has possessed you (I hope you're adding up the cost of all these bound spirits you keep using in your examples, btw), it can attack you without having to possess or manifest, because you're dual-natured. And dual-natured spirits vs. higher-force purely astral ones... they don't have the odds in their favour.

Bowing out now, due to lack of time, I'm afraid.

K.

It comes to mind that the combined spirit/vessel could take enough damage such that if the two entities were to split, their respective damage boxes would be overflowed, the vessel being in danger of death and the spirit being disrupted. Assuming that disruption is an unpleasant experience, the spirit may elect to stay in the vessel even after all services are rendered until enough damage is healed to prevent disruption. The magician may be happy about this, hoping the reduced damage would not kill her, either.

On the other hand, she may not. The vessel, even if the Summoning magician, would not have any power to command a spirit whose services are complete. If the vessel did not have the Channeling metamagic, she would not have the power to access her Skills to either Banish the spirit or re-Summon/Bind it to get more services.

Example: vessel with BOD 4 is possessed by a F4 spirit. Individually they have damage tracks of 10, but together they have a damage track of 12. If they took 11 boxes of damage ("I feel faint.... barely hanging on. Don't leave me, [spirit of] man!"), each would overflow if they split.

I respectfully disagree with you Muspellsheimr, you know full well I respect you as one of the other good rules lawyers active on the forum. (able to argue either side of an issue and raise good points). But the overpowered is a subjective judgement, and there are very few circumstances when a possession spirit does not end up more powerful than a materialization one. (army of drones is about it, and once the high force/edge availability kicks in even that isn't so bad).



On the second point... the critter 'armor' power is not worn either. However it also lists itself as 'cumulative with worn armor'. That's not a fully valid logic on your part. The way I read all that, is that all those items are cumulative to a 'worn armor' total (even though they're not themselves worn). That is not inconsistent w/ the multiple worn armor not stacking as that does not stack, then all those other sources accumulate on that specific armor total.

What the situation boils down to is thus. The system is ambiguous at best. It does not state to add it, but it also does not state not to add it. However, we have many examples of other armor sources (magical, mundane, worn, and unworn) where they explicitly and go out of their way to state they are cumulative with the "worn armor" total.

I choose to argue that the lack of those operative words is important. Mostly because of balance concerns if it isn't...

Even low force possession spirits have monstrous damage resistance pools compared to materialization ones. (an average bod4 rea3 guard, wearing an armor jacket 8/6... possessed by a force 4 spirit... goes from 3rea+12 dice to resist damage. to 7rea + 16 dice to resist damage, plus 8 more IF IT STACKS... IE: the chance of missing the guard has more than doubled... plus if it does bypass. Chance of possession are good if 3wil+2 to resist... (higher phys stats, lower mentals... not uncommon), 8 on 5, and correct wording means failing to possess one guard of a pair, it possessess another... or even their trained german shephard. Possessing the caster to augment himself, is an option not even possible w/ materialization spirits.

Mind you, I believe we both agree that spirits as written (both materialization and possession) at high forces become rather silly and slightly broken. Though binding costs on spirits aren't much different than the cost of drones for a rigger. (especially if the rigger loses a drone now and then... losing 10k combat drone hurts your bottom line too).

Look in digital grimoires sidebar as well... they even suggest such draconian measures such as... limiting possession to prepared vessels, or only allowing things present when the spirit is summoned to be possessed. I'm of mixed mind on how well those ideas address the special problems that come w/ possession.

The critter armor power is described as an "extremely tough hide." (Running Wild, p. 204) This is a physical characteristic which is capable of interacting/interfering with worn armor. ItNW is a manifestation of magical protection and has no physical component, just as the armor spell has none. The critter power Immunity is magical in nature in all of its manifestations. None of them are described as having a physical component.

Digital Grimoire was written after people had been making claims such as yours, and it offers a variety of options for those who wish to house-rule limitations on Possession. Feel free to do so.

A couple of points to consider. First, it is possible to reach that frightening Damage Resistance Pool in the range of 50 through means other than Possession. You can do it with a Troll adept as well, for example. I haven't considered other options. Shall we discard adepts, too? That troll tank would be just as single-functional and boring to play as the monsters presented above would be.

Second, the fear that such a creature makes the rest of the party vulnerable because of the force needed to deal with it crushes the rest is unfounded, undemonstrated and unprovable. Once I finish my dissertation (this will be some weeks yet), and am free to add another GM commitment to what I already have, I will challenge the DS community to come up with a team that includes 'regular' members and at least one such 'monster'. I will have no trouble at all dealing with the frightful one in ways that are consistent with the rules and the fluff and do not overbalance the rest of the party.

I challenge you all to prove me wrong. Until then, could we get back to the request in my original post? Answers to that could in fact demonstrate my point without the need for a challenge at all.

Irrelevant. ItNW invokes the Hardened armor power. Or is ItNW not worth anything because it is invoked by the possession or materialization power?! Where do you pick and choose.

The armor spell for example is clearly magical in nature as well. Yet it also clearly goes out of it's way to state "cumulative w/ worn armor".
Just because one is magical and the other is mundane does not get around that bit...

Hardened armor power also has words to the same effect, but it does not list cumulative w/ worn armor.

Putting kevlar on a turtle will not prevent it's 'hardened' shell from getting cracked when you hit it w/ a bullet... The shell has no give, while pinkskins are soft and squishy and can absorb the energy of the impact provided it doesn't 'pierce' them (which is what the kevlar stops it from doing). The turtle has no 'give' and you'd have to armor it differently to get the same effect.


Second point:
Brick the troll comes to mind (massive amounts of cyberarmor). However, his armor is not hardened. And he has no counterspelling. Most adepts aren't built on massive amounts of soak but on large dodge pools which a wide burst is normally good for eliminating a lot of. Normally a valid response to a massively over armored mondane is... manabolt. However, when you possess someone w/ say a force 8 guardian spirit... depending on how you handle the rules that spirit has either 6(max) ranks in counterspelling or 8 (force) itself. (plus the caster has his own counterspelling and wilpower is a drain stat. and using powerbolt/indirect is worse because body+counterspelling just got doubly augmented).

As far as cherry picking situations... the vast majority I've seen involve arbitrariness and favoritism on the GM's part. The hypothetical orbital bovine bombardment... or the always popular 'sniper' surprise attack. If that player, why not another...

I don't want to sidetrack your thread... and I've said I'll drop the subject... but I will respond to poorly thought out logic like this.

Falconer, none of the above addresses Muspellheimer's point that Immunity is a state of being, not worn armor, nor the fact that the use of the words "Hardened Armor" to describe the effect of Immunity is just that, an analogy to explain the mechanics for determining what level of damage has no effect. You yourself say the rules are ambiguous to you, and you choose your interpretation "[m]ostly because of balance concerns." I understand and respect that. I do not agree with your argument that the rules say what you say.
The development of the monsters above, picking and choosing certain combinations of Attributes and Skills (or lack thereof) mixed with just the right kind of spirit type, boosted to a level that is disfunctional and potentially fatal to the practitioner, that's cherry picking. I'm happy to have a typical corporate extraction run, no orbital bombing or snipers sitting outside the PC's apartment. The only thing that might be artificial is that I would have to at some point nerf even a good plan (or give a bye to an extraordinarily bad one) in order to guarantee combat to test our respective positions on Possession. Cyber, magic and matrix going in will face a reasonable, challenging, intelligent mix of defense.

I want to see for myself. I don't believe any PC out of the box is untouchable or a death sentence to his own party (OK, you know what I mean. Really stupid behaviour aside.)

I am prepared to be proven wrong.

That troll adept would be a pale comparison to the possession mage, he would be inferior in almost every single way. Not as good of a tank and definitely not as good of a fighter.



1 & 2) Physical and Technical skills can be covered with a Task spirit. Combat skills can be covered with a Guardian Spirit. Combat itself has be discussed ad nauseum in this thread. The only stock tradition that has both is Voodoo. Social skills can be supplemented with emotitoys (if you are a voodoo mage your CHA is probably reasonably high but you won't be nearly as good as a face) but that could be rough, vehicle skills are sort of mixed bag since you could prepare a vehicle for possession which would make the mage a decent pilot of anything prepared but otherwise the mage will be at a severe disadvantage. With Improved Invisibility a possessed bird/insect can go just about anywhere not warded. Drain can always be healed by a spirit with first aid. You can save anyone unconscious, but not dead, by having them possessed.
3) Make overcasting on summoning/binding very difficult by having the spirit use Edge to resist, this keeps possession spirits powerful but not necessarily game breaking.
4) Possessed vessels are very noticeable. Adepts with Commanding Voice can ruin the day (but this could apply to all people). Mana Static, Astral Hazing, and Background Counts can screw things up (but this would apply to all awakened characters), presumably spirits using powers leave signatures behind that if not cleaned up could lead back to the spirit/mage (this is true with any mage using spirits frequently), high powered drones can be a pain, laser/electricity/weapon foci/killing hands/stacked AP/called shots/overcast stunbolts/sniper rifles can all cause a Force 6 spirit problems. However, the biggest thing is that Edge can't be commanded to be used so being obviously possessed could result in people using Edge against you and the spirit deciding it isn't worth the effort.

At no point is a "new" entity created; the vessel and possessing spirit are considered a single dual natured creature, but are still a vessel and a spirit.

At no point is it ever stated that the increase to Physical attributes may exceed the vessel's augmented maximums, nor does it at any point say the new "combined" values replace those of the spirit &/or vessel.

What it does say, quite clearly, is that the vessels Physical attributes are increased by the possessing spirit's Force. As with all attribute increases, unless specifically noted otherwise, it is subject to augmented maximums.



Further, the Frequently Asked Questions document does not (in this instance) contradict the Rules as Written, but it does add additional rules/text that are not supported in the print version or PDF of the book. The (updated errata) version of the book was indeed printed after the FAQ ceased being maintained; as such, any "clarifications" that add, alter, or remove rules cannot be considered relevant or viable - even under the assumption that they normally would (again, FAQ <> Errata).


Rules as Written, a possessing spirit adds its Force to the vessels Physical attributes, subject to the vessels augmented maximums.

In conclusion, you are incorrect & the FAQ document, as frequently stated for numerous reasons, is bullshit.

You are using a common, and blatantly incorrect "If I fail to specify it is true, it must be false (or vice-versa)" argument. This is even more so the case when the "specify is true" is a reminder of an overarching rule or statement - worn armor does not stack.

You are attempting to extend a rule to areas it does not cover, on basis of a missing reminder text.


As an example of the "If I fail to specify it is true, it must be false (or vice-versa)" in regards to overarching statements & reminders, I present the following:

The following items are blue (statement or rule)
Blueberries. Blueberries are blue.
Street Magic. The Street Magic cover (1st printing) is blue.
The sky.


Because I failed to add a reminder to "The sky" declaring it is blue, it must not, in fact, be blue. This is precisely what you are attempting to do with the armor rules.

I don't understand why you put such a premium on the fact that the 2nd printing of Street Magic was released after the FAQ, yet pooh-pooh the DIRECT EXAMPLES in Ghost Cartels that Possession supersedes the attribute maximums of the host -- when both Ghost Cartels and the 2nd printing of Street Magic were released the same day (which happened to be around 6 months *after* the Street Magic errata was released).

(One could also infer from Ghost Cartels that ItNW doesn't *fully* stack with worn armor; there are two examples in Ghost Cartels of people possessed: one has armor (which is added to the <Force x 2> armor of the spirit but *doesn't* have any notation that it is Immune to Normal Weapons (and, thus, hardened armor), the other is presumed to not be wearing armor (due to storyline matters that I choose to not spoil) and only has the <Force x 2> armor of the spirit, which is *specifically* noted to be Immune to Normal Weapons.)

Of course, since we are on The Internet, I suppose that I should just assume that this stands only as proof that the SR developers are shoddy hacks who don't bother double-checking their products (shipping the same day) against each other for consistency. ("Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument" - Abraham Lincoln, 1839).

EDIT:

I resent (and REBUKE) the premise that certain supplements are considered RAW while others (when convenient for someone's argument) *aren't*. While I am willing to accept that a free adventure or (dare I say it?!?) a SR Mission might have less oversight than printed material, the fact remains that supplements like Ghost Cartels are considered by the line developers to be canon enough to take up a part of the production schedule. As has been documented/discussed in other threads (quite recently, I might add), producing a *hardcopy* work is a substantial cash outlay that would (presumably) be considered important enough to ensure that the printed work is at least *marginally* consistent with the game line as a whole. Until an official source says otherwise, I consider any example in any *printed* material that I can purchase for Legal Tender from a brick-and-mortar store to be (at least) an example of RAI, if not RAW.

Ghost Cartels cannot be used as an example of Rules as Written for two reasons. First, it is not a rulebook. Second, in multiple locations it breaks the rules. In the case of possession attributes, it is breaking the rules.

So yes, the authors either did not understand the rules they where working with, did not check their work, or (most likely) both.


And I personally don't give a shit that the corrected Second Printing of Street Magic, or the Errata it incorporates, was released after the FAQ ceased being maintained, but apparently Knasser does as that is a strong basis for several of his arguments.



Again, Ghost Cartels is not in any way a rulebook, and in multiple instances contradicts the rules of the game. This is most likely because of poor proofreading & the authors being unfamiliar with the rules being used. It is a failure on Catalyst's part.

The book is not used for rules, nor does it in any way alter the rules through the use of shoddy "examples". I don't give a shit what you think or use in your game. Unless you can provide an actual Rules as Written quote, do not call your idea's RAW.

Really, the sky is pitch black right now. Your statement is obviously false. (it's a conditional)
Or the sky could be slate grey overcast, even though cerulean is good too ;P.

I take your meaning and see what you're saying. I disagree w/ you. You're not the only one who has studied logic and logical fallacies. What we have here is a true ambiguity from the editors.. yet again. (the same people who decided making two radically different powers named 'mystic armor' was a good idea). The operative phrase, is a disambiguation, it makes it absolutely clear that X does Y.

Precisely... the portion which details "normal armor". It's an undefined term. How is 'normal armor' treated... if it refers to treat it like 'worn' armor which is what most people consider 'normal' as most of the other sources would be considered 'exceptional' or 'abnormal'. Is it normal that it doesn't stack, and exceptional when they point it out. Or is it normal that it stacks and exceptional when it doesn't? You can't claim to deam that any more than I can. As far as I'm concerned the 'safest' (and maybe even 'sanest') assumptions are that unless otherwise specified things do not stack. (armor or otherwise)

In any case, people keep saying X is the only way to read this, and it's obvious. When it's not and produces results which can be within reason considered gamebreaking. When you ask why... they can't point to anything definitive in the rules. (normally they fall back on it's magic, or innate... when I can point at magical or innate and point out those have specific wording making it clear they stack).

It's not blatantly obvious that any of those sources should stack (or be blue excepting to those who have actually seen those real objects... I could have a mutant black blueberry...). It could be entirely possible that an armor spell wouldn't stack but have armor value == to force (rather than hits)... magic is what magic is. Barrier spells are based on hits, while a ward is based on force... The how or why doesn't matter for magic at least in my book (that's what makes it magic), only the end result of what the letter of the book says (and it's implications on providing a good game for all).

Oh well, we've addressed each others points... always good to spar w/ you Muspellsheimr. If you'd like to go into it farther feel free to open up a new thead. This one is derailed enough.

Rumanchu:
Or you could go w/ "Unwired"... that book is an absolute work in confusion... they literally had something like 3 major authors all writing in parallel in a true 'left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing' sense. And the final work ended up probably the weakest of the line. A lot of the rules work fine by themselves, it's when you collect them together that you can get some real wierdness going.

Scenerio books are rife w/ bad NPC's or archetypes... even the original BBB was guilty of REALLY bad character examples in the archetypes. It rightly drew jeers.

Regardless of what the authors (a large number of whom were also writers for Street Magic) did or did not understand, the editors of Ghost Cartels (both of whom were editors for Street Magic...and Augmentation...and SR4A) should at the very least have had an *inkling* of how the rules for Possession are *supposed* to work.

Now, I'm not saying that Ghost Cartels is RAW...but it has a damned good argument in favor of it being an example of RAI -- which happens to support the clear-cut wording in the FAQ.

Now, while Ghost Cartels may not be a "rulebook", per se, it is (to my, probably limited, knowledge) the only printed material that contains stats for Possessed characters -- both of which exceed the regular augmented maximum for their metatype. It's not entirely unreasonable, in the face of *zero* hard evidence to the contrary, to conclude that a Possessed living vessel can possess stats outside the normal maximums for their metatype.

EDIT (to include bits added after I started replying):





I didn't call it RAW; I said that it's not (to my thinking) outside the realms of possibility that a company might actually, in the face of an (arguably) unclear rule actually print a goddamn example of how the rules should work.

Now, I (to use the parlance of our times) don't give a shit what you think or use in your game, but don't presume to speak for the developers while dismissing uncontested printed material out-of-hand because YOU find it to contradict YOUR interpretation of RAW.

Compromise

Rules
As
Written

Not Rules as Intended
Not Rules as Interpreted


RAW, possession adds the spirit's Force to the Physical attributes of the vessel.
RAW, increases to attributes by magical or technological means cannot exceed the augmented maximums unless specifically noted otherwise.
RAW, possession is not an exception.
RAW, attributes augmented by a possessing spirit are subject to the vessels augmented maximums.

• Provide a quote from the 4th edition rule books, regarding the mechanical effect within the rules of possession, that states the increase is not subject to augmented maximums
• Begin a new thread for your House Rules
• Or shut the fuck up.

I don't pretend that the SR rulebooks are pristine examples of Laws Writ Clear -- hell, I complained about the formatting of the rules in SR4A within the past 48 hours! I just reject a mindset that "bad" source material can be judged unworthy by people who aren't involved in the development of the game. As much as I would love to point out (well, I suppose that it could be said that I *have*, technically) that Shifter rules are ZOMGBROKEN, the fact remains that they are RAW. (On the flipside to that, though, there's no way in hell that I'd allow a player in my game to use the Karmagen rules *as written*, as they (can be) clearly abused quite easily.)


(Now, going back to Unwired...as someone whose main character (when he plays) is a hacker, I find much more that I dislike about Unwired than I like. On the whole, I'd say that the parts that are the most egregious examples of Total Mess are those that are based on someone looking at the Matrix rules and saying, "that's not how it would work *now*". Even if you dismiss the fact that the SR reality branched off from ours quite dramatically about 15-20 years ago, botnets (as we understand them) in 2070 should be about as relevant as punchcard errors are for us in 2010. Which is to say: not so much. I could go on and on about Unwired as an unworthy rulebook, but that's not relevant to the thread at hand.)

There are a few good things in Unwired, but yes, it is pretty much Fail.

There are a few good things in Unwired, but yes, it is pretty much Fail.

Show me a RULE (*not* implied, *not* interpreted, *not* inferred) that Immunity to Normal Weapons stacks with worn armor.



Armor (spell): "It provides both Ballistic and Impact armor (cumulative with worn armor)" (SR4A, p.210)

Armor (critter power): "A critter with this power has a natural Armor rating that is cumulative with any external armor worn" (SR4A, p.293)

Mystic Armor (adept power): "Each level provides you with 1 point of armor (that counts as both Ballistic and Impact) that is cumulative with any worn armor." (SR4A, p.197)

Immunity (critter power): "A critter with Immunity has an enhanced resistance to a certain type of attack or affliction. The critter gains an “Armor rating” equal to twice its Magic against that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated as “hardened” protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically does no damage. Additionally, this “armor rating” is added to the damage resistance test as normal armor." (SR4A, p.295)

Hardened Armor: "Hardened Armor is even tougher than normal armor. If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly off the critter; don’t even bother to make a Damage Resistance Test. Otherwise, Hardened Armor provides both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating." (SR4A, p.295)

It's crazy -- neither Hardened Armor *nor* Immunity mention stacking with worn armor. Please:

• Provide a quote from the 4th edition rule books, regarding the mechanical effect within the rules of Immunity to Normal Weapons, that states that the "Armor rating" granted stacks with worn armor
• Begin a new thread for your House Rules
• Or shut the fuck up.

Thanks.

On this, we can both agree.

Might I suggest you adhere to your own advice?

Every time the issue of how possession based stats work has been addressed, be it in ghost cartels, or threads touched on by developers, the FAQ or anywhere else applicable, the same ruling has been made. That the stats of the vessel are added to the force of the spirit, and the new augmented maximum is equal to 1.5 times the new total. That you seem to be flailing against this is beginning to border on the comical, but time give it a rest please?