A good case can be made that based upon the rules for Zombies, which have stats of C*+F where C* are the stats of the character/critter at the time of death (pg 87 street magic) that the same rules should almost certainly apply to living characters, as it would be pants on head retarded for a troll possessed by a spirit to get stronger if he was possessed AFTER he was already dead.
Pg 13 of the digital grimore gives an example where someone is possessed and with no statement limiting them to any caps. This would be the complete absence of the rules you're screaming about.

Once again.

A lack of statement is not identical to the opposite being true.


The book provides rules for augmented maximums - any magical or technological attribute adjustment is subject to augmented maximums.

If such an increase fails to specify it is an exception, it is not an exception - regardless of if it includes a redundant statement (typically called a "reminder") or not.


In the case of Immunity stacking with other forms of armor - restrictions on "stacked" armor applies to worn armor - I have provided rules quotes for this. There are no restrictions on stacking sources of armor that are not worn. Thus, unless specified otherwise (such as FFBA), worn armor does not stack. Further, unless specified otherwise, not-worn armor does stack. Immunity does not specify it is an exception to the rule, and stacks.

In the case of possessing spirits & vessels, the rules clearly state the possessed spirit's Force is added to the vessel's Physical attributes. It does not specify this is an exception to the augmented maximums rule, and so it is, in fact, subject to augmented maximums.


Developer input can assist in determining how a rule is intended to work, but until such input is included in official errata, it has no impact whatsoever on how the rule actually does work (outside House Rules). This has even been stated by developers/authors on numerous occasions.


For example, did you realize that Rules as Written, every spell in the book (yes, including Indirect Combat) is subject to Object Resistance? This is clearly not how it is intended to work, but despite me bringing it up on the forums repeatedly (one such time even being a significant debate), it has not actually changed as Written. Every game that uses Object Resistance "as intended" is using a House Rule.

[Note: In my House Errata document, I clearly state Indirect Combat & Environmental Manipulation spells are not subject to Object Resistance]

Except that you will note that even Voodoo only has three of the 4 uber spirits... his tradition has all 4...

Keep the Faith

I think you are missing the forest through the trees. I only needed a tradition with task and guardian. I made one up because I didn't feel like searching all the traditions for one that fit my criteria.

I understand your reasoning, but why did you have to add all 4 Uber Spirits? on eor two with the rest coming from the original core book makes a lot of sense... But using all of the best spirits in a single Tradition is just crazy in my opinion... it very quickly leads to a broken game...

And as for my stance on Possession vs. Materialization... I do not believe that either are broken if you take into account how the world actually works...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

I just picked the ones that looked like people or animals not tree demons or burning scarecrows with no legs.

Understood...

But you can describe the spirits in any way that makes sense to you... I have used Air Spirits as Ghosts (of obviously human form)... the traditions will view spirits under their own lamp of reason, so to speak, so they are somewhat mutable...

Keep the Faith

Please forgive the question, but which spirits are the uber ones, and why do you qualify them as such?

See zombie example.

Yes which is why I've never made a mage that used a single spell of that category, because over coming OR, followed by dodge, followed by armor+body makes any of those spells useless.

Task because you can use them as skillwires.
Guardian because you can give them any combat skill and they can counterspell
Man because you can give them any spell you know
Guidance because they can counterspell.

The spirits in SR4A have no magical defense and aren't very flexible or unique.

Wow, this thread has gotten out of hand. I think there are 4 or 5 different arguments raging, all of them having very little to do with the original topic. All right, so the term RAW has been thrown around a lot lately on this thread. I think we can all agree that the RAW for possession spirits is generally unclear and the primary reason for all of these arguments. Whether you choose to interpret the rules as saying that hardened armor does or does not stack with worn armor, you aren't going to convince anybody of the validity of your point by repeating arguments multiple times, cursing, or name calling. Whether or not you choose to use the FAQ as a reliable source of rules changes is up to you, it does represent the opinions of at least one developer and clarifies a number of issues, however, nearly all of its clarifications lean towards making things more powerful and open the door for PCs to break the system of the game, so I would say that rather than use the FAQ as RAW, RAI or whatever that you should instead simply use it at your own risk. One thing I believe I must weigh in on is the use of Ghost Cartels as a reliable source of game examples. Here are the three possession examples used in ghost cartels-



This first example is fine except for the fact that the spirit doesn't have 8 edge as it should. It uses certain rules interpretations but does show the potential of a force 8 spirit possessing a being with average physical stats.



This second example of a dead body possessed by a shedim is where things get a little hairy. Looking at the stats, it's obvious this person is possessed by a force 4 spirit, and yet his initial reaction of 4 is brought up to 9 by possession. Also, he has a listed Initiative of 8 when it should be 13, or 12 if using proper possession rules. This is all a little off, but it could just be bad math. It's this third example that's really bad.



This guy has a force 6 possession spirit in him, and yet his reaction goes from 3 to 12 while possessed. If that's an oversight it's a pretty huge one, but I venture to guess that that is, in fact, exactly what the developer intended when designing the character. This guy is a boss, he needs to have high stats. My guess is that the developer chose to design this character's attributes outside of the original rules for the purposes of creating a challenging boss fight. The reason I don't think a module should be used even for RAI is because they are designed to be fun and challenging, not 100% accurate to the actual rule books. Either that or they're just rife with typos. Either way you shouldn't take examples from them out of context and use them as supports for an argument.

I'm not about to wade into the rest of the Possession debate, which I think others are handling better than I could, but I want to point out that this is incorrect. Drain is not a payment to the spirit. Drain is the cost of bending the spirit to your will and bringing it to the physical world. The spirit may get something out of the deal in the process of coercing it from its astral home, however. Sometimes a summoning ritual includes things that motivate the spirit, or sometimes the spirit is motivated by the new experiences in themselves. But drain is not a payment to the spirit; it gains nothing from the drain the summoner suffers.

Maybe aside from the possibility to overcome the weakened summoner and go free to become much stronger as a free spirit that can ask for karma as a means of payment for services.

You guys mentioned a quote from a developer:

Apparently, possession spirits did not have maximums at all before then (similar to materialization spirits), and much teeth gnashing occurs.
It really is an interesting forum thread, especially as a counter-point to this one. Frank Trollman weighed in believing that caps would make possession underpowered and insignificant.

Thanks, McCummhail, that is a very useful link. I had forgotten about it, despite the fact that I had chimed in on the ward discussion. I think all of us would benefit from a read (or reread) of that thread.

So taking the spirits which actually are flexible is broken?
Seems more to me that telling a player he must use spirits which you consider not "very flexible or unique" is like telling the street sammy that they should employ the less effective ware, and they're not allowed to upgrade.

Are you addressing me here? I don't think that taking spirits that are flexible is broken nor do I think that a player must have to take those spirits to be effective.

Ok, you were just the one to provide the reason for it, so I assumed it was a view you supported.

I've hear many people argue differently. If you were only opening a gate, and enticing them through, then the drain would be independent of the force of the spirit you were calling. If you were constantly abducting spirits from their native realm, they would invariably be hostile to every summoner since the dawn of time, and people would have stopped doing it a while ago.

I'm certainly not saying that a Summoning is simply opening a gate. It's not a gate at all, it's an effort to coerce a spirit to cross into the physical world from its natural habitat.

For simple summoning, "abduct" and "hostile" are too strong of terms. It's a short term agreement. Some spirits may find it annoying, some may look at it with ambivalence, some may be excited by the new experiences and opportunities for mischief. This should depend on many factors, such as GM's roleplaying whim, the summoner's tradition, and what the summoned spirit is being commanded to do.

Binding is a whole different can of worms. Binding is typically insulting to spirits, to say the least. This is made clear in the Uncontrolled Spirits sidebar on page 180 of SR4 Core. And yes, they will be hostile towards the Summoner if they get the opportunity. As the book says:



Summoning, and Binding, are attempts to get a spirit to do something you want it to do, not necessarily what the spirit wants to do. Whether it's a matter of outsmarting the spirit (Logic), negotiating with the spirit to work out terms (Charisma), or reminding the spirit of its role and place in the universe (Intuition), it's always a struggle for dominance, and the cost of that struggle is Drain.

You guys should actually read the descriptions of the different traditions. In each it gives the relationship that spirits have with mages of that tradition and how they feel about being summoned. In general, if a summoner role plays his tradition well and treats his spirits in a well-meaning manner as determined by his tradition, they shouldn't have negative feelings towards him. Binding is a bit trickier, however, simply saying that all spirits hate binding is inaccurate. Certainly all spirits should have misgivings about binding, a binding mage can force a spirit to do whatever he wants, up to and including having the spirit kill itself sustaining a spell. However, a mage that has proven himself as trustworthy and capable would probably have little trouble binding lower force spirits, who probably would have something to gain from interacting with him, and might be able to appease higher force spirits into agreeing to being bound in exchange for some service outside of Drain. Even if a mage knocks himself unconscious trying to bind a high force spirit, if he was following the guidelines of his tradition and/or offering the spirit something for its service he should probably be able to wake up from the encounter without having the force 8 spirit tear him in half. It's all a matter of roleplaying, if a mage is treating his spirits ike tools, then all the negative possibilities apply, but if he's treating them with respect, or at least in accordance with the manners of his tradition, the spirit should at least be ambivalent towards him, attempt to bind or no.

There aren't traditions that treat spirits as tools? I would have thought that Hermetic would have been along the lines of X + Y + a pinch of ABC = Spirit

I wrote many of the tradition descriptions.

And I agree with what you're saying. It's not universal. Even the book language about binding states that it's not universal, it's just that many spirits are insulted by Binding and that higher forced spirits are more likely to be violent towards the binding magician.

And yes, many Hermetics do treat spirits like tools, but they are tools they need to be very careful using. Because if they aren't careful, those tools will kill them.

You might be talking to me Mordinvan...

All SPirits are useful, but not all spirits are created equal (so to speak)... Creating a Tradition that has ALL of the most useful Spirits in it is just a tad bit on the powergaming side of things... I think that Traditions should be somewhat balanced... thus it should not have all of the most useful/best spirits...

Keep the Faith

Well, there you go. The new FAQ published on the 20th of this month says the vessel's augmented maximum Attribute limits the number of points that can be added by a Possessing spirit.

Awesome... we have a winner...

Keep the Faith

Well doesn't that just suck for anyone who's already at the augmented maximum... Possessed by a force 18 spirit, and no change in that physical stat, but the same spirit possesses a straw scare-crow and beats the ever loving tar out of them....

Well yeah, it's a force 18 spirit... I would defintely say this evens the odds for materialization spirits, at least at the high end. The bear shifter is still a possibility though, I don't think he ever got to his augmented maximums and he still had 50 something soak dice

Even better:

"Even if Hardened Armor is not the character's highest armor value, it still applies for attacks whose DV do not exceed the Hardened Armor."

While I (personally) disagree with the answer on Possession maximums, it's nice to see two things that were being discussed in this thread addressed.

(Queue discussion of whether or not FAQ answers are RAW in 3...2...)

Even the troll I posted only loses 2 soak dice because his body is 15 instead of 17.

That's nice, I was talking about a human with maybe a 9 strength, and a 7 body. Possessed by a force 18 spirit he now has a 9 strength 9 body. Have that same spirit possess a human shaped clump of straw, and its gets an 18 strength and an 18 body. I'm simply going to have to house rule this as it makes absolutely no sense to me.

The human is still gaining 36 dice in hardened armor. All it means is that the summoner/spirit needs to choose what best suits them at the time. The answer isn't always "possess the summoner".

I had hoped that this ruling (OK, FAQ) would have eliminated the talk about the insanely high Force and ludicrously dangerous to summon/bind spirits. I think lower Force and more easily handled spirits now will come to the fore.

Binding has never really be that feasible of an option. It is possible obviously, but requires a lot of planning and luck and a friendly interpretation of the fluff by the GM. Until overcasting becomes more dangerous and healing becomes more difficult summoning high force unbound spirits will still be pretty easy.

No but something with stats should have better stats then something without stats once the possession is done. Something with higher stats, should still have higher stats then something with lower stats once the possession is done. As I said, this is a piece of raw which I can not really comprehend, kind like the whole physical illusion needing to meet the or of the camera when its actually bending the light. I mean it prevents the spirits in question from being overly broken unless they're possessing a body now, which incidentally I'd be doing all the time, as I don't think that limitation applies to corpses which have a very low OR to resist possession with seeing as how they are now simply meat and no longer a character, they likely aren't bound by the same restrictions for augmented limits. Hmm, play a free sprirt with the possession power, realistic from, and regenerate, and live in a troll's body.... should work, and no one should really ever know.

Weren't we just subject to a barrage of posts insisting that FAQs were not errata and had no authority (despite no-one claiming that they did).

Anyway, this is a bad design decision. What it means is that possession spirits are now significantly underpowered compared to their equivalent Materialisation buddies.
A possession spirit in a living vessel now has attributes capped at metahuman maximums, a materialsation spirit does not.
A possession spirit requires a vessel. A materialisation spirit does not.
A possession spirit wishing to temporarily move astrally must relinquish their vessel and find a new one at the other end, the materialsation spirit does not.
A possession spirit is required to pass a possession roll in order to appear in the physical world, a materialisation spirit does so automatically.

Both spirits have equal ItNW.
A channeling magician gives up the ability to act independently, cast spells alongside their spirit, etc. in return for a boost to stats no better than a samurai but temporary and with greater limitations and opens themselves up to astral attack, in comparison to the materialisation mage who gets a buddy with potentially better stats, the same ItNW and whom he can fight alongside.

Alternately, he can lug a prepared, inanimate vessel around with him everywhere. Yeah, plasteel hormunculous. That works great outside unrealistic D&D style dungeon crawls.

So somebody tell me how with capped stats, possession isn't underpowered compared to materialisation.

K.

EDIT: I'm very curious as to who wrote that FAQ now that most of the original design team have left Catalyst in disgust. Anyone want to step forward, please?

I did not know that. Got a link for me?

It's from the master himself

Assuming that you are talking about this shifter:



*and* that said shifter would be possessed by a Guardian spirit



then here's a list of the various Force levels that will cap out each stat (at CharGen):

Body (Max 19) - Force 8
Agility (Max 6) - Force 1
Reaction (Max 7) - Force 1
Strength (Max 19) - Force 10
Charisma (Max 9) - Force 4
Intuition (Max 7) - Force 6
Logic (Max 7) - Force 5
Willpower (Max 7) - Force 3
Magic (Max 6) - Force 1

(I'm not even going to get into the "maximum Skill rating for spirits" discussion here -- I am willing to assume that a spirit can actually have a skill beyond 6/7)

As an extreme case, let's compare the Force 10 (maximum summoned spirit at Chargen for this bear) Materialized Guardian



with that same bear shifter Possessed by a Force 10 Guardian, wearing Military Grade armor (for the purposes of comparison/laziness, I am leaving out spells that may be cast on the spirit/vessel)



If you take the stand that the latest FAQ is RAI/RAW, it seems clear that (in the case of this bear shifter, anyways) a Possession version is *far* inferior to a Materialization at chargen, since there is only *one* die pool that is superior (physical soak -- which is totally boned by the **HUGE** disparity between 20 points of Hardened Armor and 12 points of Hardened Armor; assuming the "best case" scenario (for the shooter), the Materialized spirit basically wins every time (with the few exceptions being Facefuck-worthy for nearly *any* character) -- here are the most damaging (non-vehicle) gun types that I can think of right now:

Elephant Gun with ADPS: 9P base + (-6AP) = net 15 damage code with 1 success
Assault Cannon: 10P base + (-5AP) = net 15 damage code with 1 success
Barrett Model 121: 9P base + (-4 AP base) + (-4 AP ADPS) = net 17 damage code with 1 success.

BEST CASE (a Barrett 121 with ADPS), the shooter needs 3 net successes on the attack roll to damage the Materialized spirit, versus 1 against the Possessing spirit, to actually deal damage.

The best part is that, by "FAQ is RAW", nearly anyone who hits the example bear shifter with an ADPS-loaded firearm is going to damage it (since the attacker only needs a base (ie: the number on the table, with 0AP from the weapon) damage code of *at least* 7P to (potentially) damage it) versus the (net, not counting APDS) damage code of 15+P to have a shot at damaging the materialized spirit. (If we assume that the recent FAQ is as good as RAW: "Yes. The dual entity's Physical attribute + Force of the spirit cannot be greater than the vessel's maximum augmented attribute" -- which limits Magic (and, thus, Immunity to Normal Weapons) for a chargen shifter to 6, even while Possessed.)

It is not. It continues to directly contradict the Rules as Written in multiple instances. It remains a null document in rules discussion (see my post on the subject).

Regardless of the (lack of) relevance of the updated FAQ, I have already provided rules quotes of Possession adding/modifying the attributes of the vessel, and have not encountered anything stating they are an exception to the augmented maximums. No one has successfully provided a rules quote stating they are an exception. And so, my assertion that Rules as Written, Possession is subject to augmented maximums stands as correct.



Note: Just to be absolutely clear, in my game, Possession attribute increases affect the base vessel values instead of augmenting them, and so are not subject to the maximum (and in fact increase it). However, just like their Materialization counterparts, they use Force ÷ 2 (round up), plus modifiers (to a minimum of 1) for all Physical and Mental attributes (including said modifiers to the vessel).

They also use Force ÷ 2 (round up) for skill ratings, and Task / Guardian spirits can only be given skills the summoner possesses (similar to the restriction on a Spirit of Man's spells).

The end result has thus far been low Force spirits remain largely the same as before, while high Force spirits remain incredibly useful and effective for anything they where good at previously, without breaking the power curve (also keep in mind that the maximum Force is 20, as Magic cannot exceed 7 naturally [Essence + Initiation, maximum 7], & uses the same augmented maximum rules as other attributes). While the spirit change was a balance alteration, simply having the maximum Magic/Resonance & Initiation/Submersion [5] has significantly improved gameplay without actually affecting any of the characters.

Ancient History has some SERIOUS face skills! He's just convinced people he wrote Street Magic and is the definitive source on Shadowrun rulings. Nice roll, my friend! Hope you didn't have to burn edge.

Personally I like the clarification and prefer the maxed attributes. To me it's more about what the metahuman body can handle rather then about the spirit's abilities. Makes sense to me that if pushed past these limits the spirit could destroy it's own vessel, which I doubt it would want to do in most cases.

That said though, I would allow a "Possession Redlining" houserule in my game similar to cyberlimb redlining:


For "Possession Redlining" (for lack of a better name) I'd use a similar rule, allowing up to the Spirit's attributes as the cap, allowing a temporary push past the maximum. Damage would still be 2x the modifier and tracked separately between spirit and vessel, both making their own resistance tests. A spirit may do this on any willing vessel, or unwilling with a Force x2 vs. Intuition + Willpower test.

I think that's a fair and fun solution. Can still get those crazy stats but only when you really need it. Can even do it to hostile enemies you've possessed but the process hurts the spirit too so if overused you kill your own spirit off. I kinda like it, anyone have any suggestions of changes that they see should be made? I don't play much with possession rules so I may have missed an exploit or something.

And I have already replied to this argument the first time around (what is this, the third now?). You keep asking for a rule that says "this is an exception to the augmented attribute" and I keep pointing out that you'll not find one because those rules don't apply. You add the Force and the Attribute to calculate the rating of the new entity. it's not a boost to the vessel's attributes, the vessel has been replaced as the book states.

But I've no interest in playing silly games when you raised this, got a reply and ignored it, just repeating the same "Fred gets a bonus because the rules don't say he doesn't" argument. Unless you can bring up something new which you havne't done so far, I see no profit in going round in circles so I'm done with this side of the topic.



This is all over the place now, I'm afraid. If you start with Frank Trollman's post (he's the guy who actually wrote the possession rules, by the way and he begged them not to change things to use caps) and work your way through the thread. Freelancers have not only left, but several of them are now withdrawing copyright until they're paid, causing various shadowrun books to be withdrawn from sale.

tagz: That's a good idea about adapting the cyberware redlining rules. They do fit well. But my objection still remains, essentially. You've got this possession spirit taking these redlining risks just to get up to the level that a materialisating spirit gets for free.

Nobody's really answered my questions as to why possession (if you use the new FAQ) doesn't immediately become much inferior to Materialisation over all. The only thing in the favour of possession spirits is using powerful inanimate prepared vessels and any GM who tries to argue there aren't myriad ways to deal with a plasteel hormunculous being dragged around by the party really needs some help.

I see the new FAQ as a poorly thought out response to a lot of people who didn't really get how possession worked out in play, much the same way that SR4A mangled Direct Combat spells to a non-sensical version and like Unwired where they tried to answer people's questions based on the real world Internet with a lot of new material which didn't really work with the original Matrix system in 4th. People who didn't really understand how to use possession in play were disproportionately loud and some devs went and changed things accordingly.

I suppose next, we'll have people arguing that Materialisation is over-powered, so we can reduce that too, then it will be something technological and eventually we can all play D&D 4th where everything is the same but has different names.

*sigh* Sucks to be a possession mage.

K.

Well knasser, I don't really think that possession and materialization were ever intended to be balanced with each other. Just my opinion.

It's like comparing the Levitate Spell to the Calm Pack spell. One might say that since they are both manipulation spells and have the same drain code that they should have the same amount of utility. Clearly, Levitation has more. A character picks what spells they know at character creation, knowing they have a limited number. So they pick the spells that suit them best. The only major difference with this process and Possession and Materialization is that those tradition types are mutually exclusive. So, one must think harder about the pro and cons before committing the decision.

Another example might be comparing a mundane character build to a magician build. Obviously, the two are very different and will have different strengths and weaknesses. The argument can be made that the magician is clearly overpowered compared to the mundane. But people still play mundanes, and I've seen plenty of mundane builds, and play-styles that put certain mages to shame.

If you're looking purely at numbers then yeah, one seems better then the other, but we have to remember the other factors as well that come into play. Possession still has great utility, even if less raw power at high levels.

I don't follow here. How is the maximum Force 20? Magic can exceed 7 Naturally.

"An initiate's natural maximum for a the Magic attribute is 6+ her grade of initiation." pg 198 SR4A.

Based on some of the earlier text in that post, I believe that he uses house rules in his game to smooth out some of the rough spots in the rules. I may be mistaken, though.

That is a good Point Knasser... I was one who said that the FAQ was no longer supported and was outdated... with a new Faq neither point is the case. As such, I would have to rethink my statements...

I am one that says that Possession Spirits are not underpowered to Materialization spirits...

As for who wrote the FAQ... I believe that Ancient History had a big hand in it from the Start... ask him, I am sure that he will tell you......

Keep the Faith

What you seem to be forgetting, though, is that the spirit STILL gets that armor rating to resist the damage when it comes time to do so... even though it bypasses the ITNW portion of the Resistance is irrelevant in teh long run because that armor is still used in the Damage Resisteance test...

Keep the Faith

My mind is blown.
We get a FAQ and the 'debate' swings 180.
The 2v2 becoming 3v1 and all the other positives still remain,
except ridiculous statistics for a munchkin magi.