You can't use the spirit's edge when it's possessing you, any more than you could use it when you summon it. When possessing, the spirit's mental and special attributes are used. It doesn't get mental and special attributes equal to the possessing spirit, you're actually using the possessing spirit's mental and special attributes, and you are never allowed to force a spirit to use its edge in your service.

For the purposes of channeling I would venture to guess that it was intended for channeling mages to use their own mental and special attributes while channeling, but as we're discussing RAW here, and RAW doesn't seem to support this, I guess I'll just have to leave it up to GMs to decide how they want to deal with it.

Even if you could find a GM that would allow you to use a possessing spirit's edge, it still wouldn't help you much with an ally spirit, ally spirit's get an edge stat equal to their summoner's. If the summoning mage has and edge of 3, then force 2 or force 12, the ally spirit is going to have an edge of 3.

Even so, if a player builds up enough karma to get a force 12 ally spirit, manages to bite the drain to summon it, manages to get lucky on the binding test and actually live through the drain, then there is no reason that ally shouldn't be just as loyal to its summoner as any other ally spirit. After all, such loyalty is hard-wired into their spirit formula.

Heh. After arguing with you for around ten pages, I find you suddenly put one of my own points better than I did.

I haven't forgotten about your challenge, btw. But I've hit my lengthy post budget for today.

K.

And I have quite enjoyed our argument and look forward to your answer to my challenge

I think you're arguing because you believe you're right, not out of Internet Rage, and that's my reason also. We obviously can't both be right if we disagree, so hopefully one of us will convince the other and we will achieve TRUTH.

Naturally, I think that it will turn out to be me, but if we're both simply interested in establishing what is correct, then the debate can be fun instead of bitter. I'll come up with examples for you - materialisation better than possession, excluding the highest forces. Got it.

K.

Well, honestly.

If you're going to go 'read the rules, nya, nya, nya, nya, nya' it pays to be right...



Back to the subject at hand.

Seriously, can you not see that you're trying to have it both ways?

If you want to view it as a purely mechanical problem then you have to stick to the mechanics.

When the Spirit Possesses the Magician, from a strictly mechanical pov, both cease to exist.

Go back and look through that last post-string.

You have continued to use the phrase 'spirit's Edge' as if that still has some meaning. Any argument predicated on that phrase fails before you even get to the full stop at the end of the sentence.

One creature, two minds, shared control.

The only exception to this is the explicit bar on using powers without expending a service.

The default position remains that the Channelling Magician is at liberty to burn Edge at will. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate why this should not be the case.

That point, however, is moot. Burnt Edge cancels Burnt Edge. I suppose if you burned Edge down to 1 before starting the Binding the Spirit would have none left to resist but that defeats the purpose really.

I would rule that spending Edge on the Binding roll would preclude spending Edge on the resist in this circumstance, just as I would not permit a Magician to Edge a spellcasting test and the associated Drain test. You may only spend one point of Edge on any action. As Spirit and Magician are a single creature in this instance only the first one to spend Edge on a particular action gets to do so.

Given that, interpretation, of the Edge rules, you could Bind a Spirit of Force up to roughly the size of your Binding Dicepool. A Magician with a Binding pool of 24 Dice could use Edge and expect to get around 26 hits which ought to be more than sufficient to Bind a Force 24. He stands a reasonable chance of Binding Force 36 if he is a gambling man. Drain would be horrific but that is what Burning Edge is perfect for.

----

If you can Bind a Force 12 Ally in the first place you can keep it under control when re-binding it. The rules are vague but it would seem that you suffer Drain twice if the Spirit tries to break free which could certainly smart but if you are trying to Bind Force 12's you ought to already be prepared for soaking massive Drain. Once again Burning Edge is your friend.

----

Look, all I'm trying to say here is that I think giving a Magician access to the Mental/Special attributes of a Possessing Spirit is a serious risk of opening up exploits that will result in hurried patching with ad-hoc houserules to prevent cataclysmic min/maxing.

I'm a bad man. It's no secret that while I like to role-play I also like to role-play a character that is optimized to the best of my ability.

The min/maxer in me saw how you think possession works and a big bell started ringing. I'm pretty good at spotting cracks in a system that can be exploited to give a character biblical power. That one is a crack that I could sail the QE2 through sideways.

The Possession Mage I have just built, immediately prior to reading this thread gains 33 points of Mental and Special attributes under those rules.

That is a massive increase in power that he had absolutely no need of.

Well now I know I never said that because I spell nyah with an 'h;. ;p



Honestly, no. I understand what you're saying and it's probably not worth going through another circuit of saying the same things to each other. You think I'm dodging something because I say use the spirit's special attributes for some purposes, but don't let the magician spend the spirit's Edge. I don't see them as the same thing at all and RAW doesn't provide any reason to treat them so. In fact, the measure of control that Channeling gives you is pretty clearly spelt out: you gain motor-control of your body and access to your skills, everything else handle as normal possession. That pretty much precludes permission to spend Edge.

You also object to my using the term "spirit's Edge" instead of writing "the Edge attribute that is based on the spirit's Edge and is under the control of the spirit's mind" every time, but I'm afraid you're just going to have to live with that shorthand.



"Post-string" ? But anyway, the entities merge into a new one, but both minds still exist and the "shared control" is under the parameters listed in Channeling: access to skills and motor-control. Saying the only exception is the explicit bar on using powers, doesn't work. Saying X is not so does not mean everything not X is so. Surely you accept that principle?



The default position is that as the book says, handle possession normally with the explicit exceptions listed under channeling. And those exceptions don't list spending Edge.

I'm going to skip all the stuff about burning Edge points for critical successes on binding rules. I have no interest in it, and as far as I'm concerned, if a player is dumb enough to try that outside of exceptionally dramatic circumstances that necessitated it, the spirit's just going to use its own Edge in response. RAW and in-character.



And you're not getting what I'm saying: substituting the spirit's special attributes is more penalty then blessing on the whole. Even leaving out losing the ability to spend Edge which you don't accept, it basically forces possession magicians to only summon high-force spirits. That is a terrible restriction.



Sorry, you're not a good optimiser at all. These high-force characters have all the utility and life-expectancy of a mayfly in any game other than a limited dungeon crawl. That's my point.

K.

Yeah, I don't get how people think summoning and binding a Force 12 spirit is easy. Especially with a relatively new character. I wrote a program where I can input the summoning pool, binding pool, health boxes, drain pool, target spirit's force, if the summoner uses edge on the summoning/summoning drain/binding/binding drain, if the spirit uses edge on the summoning, and how many dice in their first aid pool to try to heal them between the summoning and the binding.

So, Force 12 spirit, 18 dice summoning pool, 20 dice binding pool, 10 drain dice, 13 boxes of damage (body 10), 18 first aid dice (with a skill of 6), edge used on all 4 tests.

Results of 100000 summonings:

Spirit uses no Edge and summoner always continues if conscious
Bind the spirit about 57% of the time
Die on binding about 36% of the time.

If the spirit uses Edge on the summoning and summoner always continues if conscious
Zero boxes or worse on summoning: 10% - this probably won't result in a death since the spirit isn't uncontrolled.
Bind:37%
Die on binding :40%

If you wait for the most ideal situation where you heal all the drain on the summoning:
No Edge used by spirit
Bind:49%
Die on binding :26%

Edge used by Spirit
Zero boxes or worse on summoning: 10% - this probably won't result in a death since the spirit isn't uncontrolled.
Bind: 18%
Die on binding: 10%

I dunno about that. The troll I posted earlier is a combat monster and has great utility through his spirits. He has 2 bound Force 6, highly likely a bound Force 8, and can summon, not bind, Force 9s with little difficulty. (I am assuming a GM would probably play the Edge card if the spirit's force was greater than 1.5x my magic.

I do agree that Edge can't be used when possessed - even while channeling. SM is very specific about spirits being forced to use Edge and Channeling only gives you the ability to use your skills - not the spirit's edge.

I was thinking more of those bear things and various examples that were stated for purposes of argument but never actually posted in full. I've had to skim a little in this thread, I'll go back and have a look at your one. It's probably more sensible than the others. In case it's got lost, I've not been saying that possession isn't useful, but I don't think it's the broken monstrosity a few people are insisting it is.

K.

I believe the point that criz is trying to make regarding using the Spirit's edge, is that when you're possessed you create a new, dual entity. Meaning that its not the Spirit's Edge anymore, but the new entity's Edge....which includes you.

This is so, but he goes on to say that the magician gets to spend that Edge which is where people disagree. Channeling doesn't give you anything over normal possession other than access to your skills and motor-control over your body.

Hmmm, maybe I need to re-read the rules on Possession then. I didn't see where it said you could no longer spend your own Edge.

What?

What exactly can you do in SR that isn't skill use, motor control or power use? Virtually every Test in the system is an example of Skill Use. The rules clearly allow you to spend Edge on any Test. That is the default position. Any effect that permits you to make a Test that you otherwise would not be allowed to make but does not permit you to spend Edge on that test explicitly calls out that exception. Because it is an exception. Possession does not preclude the ability to spend Edge. It precludes the ability to act which makes using Edge unlikely. As soon as you regain the ability to act you may spend Edge, an ability you never lost, merely became unlikely to have opportunity to use.



If you actually used it to mean the later that would be fine. You have been using it not as short hand but as a self justifying explanation as to why the Magician may not spend the Edge in question, ergo that the Edge in question belongs to the Spirit.

The Edge does not belong to the Spirit. It does not belong to the Magician. It belongs to the Spirigician/Magirit amalgam. The minds of the Spirit and Magician continue to exist and both share control of the amalgam. The Magician may not use the Spirit derived powers, as any other activity possible in SR involves motor control or skill use, it is true to say that the Magician is free to do anything bar use the powers that originated with the Spirit.




Yeeees.

I'm pretty sure this is my argument. Possession and Channelling say nothing about Edge therefore the base rules are not changed. Skillwires say 'no Edge' and therefore you do not get to spend Edge.

You are mistaking the two sides of this argument. If X is not usually the case then failing to mention X does not change that fact. If X is usually the case then not mentioning X causes the status quo to remain.



There, fixed that for you.



Burning Edge is moot. It's been fixed in SR4A.



It only forces you to summon high force spirits for channelling. Oh God, noes, the huge-manatee!!!

For 9 karma you can bind a Force 9 into long term service, hard max your Mental Attributes, assuming you're Human, and get 3 points of Magic worth 120 karma.

You'll have to use other vessels for utility Spirits.

Dash.



Based on what evidence?

That feels very much like a cheap dig.

This point seems to be glossed over in the whole discussion. If it is shared control, then neither one can use the shared power/Attribute without the consent of the other.

Magician: "I will use a point of Edge to win this test."

Spirit: "No, you won't."

End of discussion.

Street Magic explicitly says that you cannot force a spirit to use Edge. Possession also states that it is to be treated exactly like Materialization unless otherwise noted. Materialization mages can't have their spirts use their Edge. Possession mages therefore cannot have their spirits use Edge.

Look at it this way, the result of a spirit possessing someone *other* than the mage is essentially the same thing as possessing the mage. The person's Edge is replaced with the spirit's Edge. You cannot force that spirit to use Edge just because it is an amalgamation of the 3rd party and the spirit. Just because it is mage that is possessed does not mean those rules change. You still cannot force the spirit to use Edge.

It doesn't say anything about either partner having a veto.

Bearing in mind that the Spirit is essentially the Magician's slave.

He can't order it to spend it's own Edge but he can certainly order it not to veto him spending his.

And another thing....

I just re-read that Willow character you created.

For shame.

Honestly, do either of you actually want to allow a magician to spend the possessing spirit's edge? Whether you think that mages should not have access to a spirit's mental and special attributes while channeling or you think that a possessing mage shouldn't be able to spend a spirit's edge while channeling, both of you agree that a magician should not be able to access a spirit's edge. If that's the case then crizh, please find another bone to pick.

In the case of spending karma to possess yourself with a force 9 spirit for a year and a day...you now look like something out of the exorcist and can no longer walk outside without people screaming about shedim, gratz. Maybe being hunted by the military and getting arrested everywhere you go is worth mental stats of 9 to you but I think most PCs will choose to forego that particular option.

No I don't think a Magician should get access to a Spirit's Edge.

Or Magic, Intuition, Logic, Charisma or Willpower.

But it is clearly one or the other. You get none of them or all of them.

-------

Long-term binding.

Tri-d Phantasm and Manascape.

Job done.

It is in fact not one or the other, at least not clearly. A strong argument can be made for the mental and special attributes you get while channeling belonging solely to the spirit, with you only gaining access to them, and in that case you would not gain access to the spirit's edge as a mage can never force a spirit to spend edge. Nevertheless, I do actually agree with you that a channeling mage should use his own mental and special attributes, and that that subject was overlooked when they made the channeling rules. But because of the wording of the channeling rules, that would have to be a house rule, and deciding whether or not a possessed mage gets to use his edge or the spirits edge or any edge at all is more of a GM interpretation than something that's clear one way or the other based on actual RAW.

Well in one way we agree.

In the other we do not. They become the Mage's stat's, to all intents and purposes, and while he cannot instruct the Spirit to spend Edge he is quite entitled to spend his own.

And that's where we disagree. I don't think the mage's mental stats suddenly become equal to the spirit's, I think he gets to use them, and that is in fact what the possession sidebar says on page 102 of Street Magic. If you can show me a place where it says that a possessed being has mental and special stats equal to the possessing spirit's then I will agree that whoever has control of the being should be able to use those stats as normal, but because the stats being used actually belong to the spirit and not to the combined entity, the summoner should not be able to use the spirit's edge while channeling. This may mean that a summoner can not use edge while channeling, even though it is not explicitly stated in the rules, because his edge attribute, as well as his Charisma, Intuition, Logic and Willpower, effectively do not exist while he is being possessed by a spirit. I agree that this is not intuitive, that's why I recommend using the summoner's stats when channeling, but this is the way the rules are written and a valid interpretation if a GM so chooses.

I think it is much simpler than this. The mage gets to use everything but Edge.

A mage can have a Materialized spirit cast a spell. In effect, he is using the spirit's Magic stat and drain stats. He is in fact commanding the spirit to use them. However, he *still* cannot use Edge because that is explicitly denied. If the spirit possesses him, and he has channeling (or the spirit has some spells it can cast) he can have the spirit cast the spell. In game terms, a mage with channeling, possessed by a Force 8 spirit has a Magic rating of 8, his two drain stats are 8, and the sorcery skill is either the spirit's or the mage's - whichever one is higher. The dual entity resists spells with the lower of the stats because that is explicitly stated.

If you can have a Materialized spirit cast Force 8 spells then the Possession spirit can as well but you cannot use Edge.

Aren't most low level materialization spirits better than possession? A Force 1 possession spirit has 2 dice to possess something. Anything living will pretty much resist that outright or with an expenditure of Edge. So, if you don't have a prepared vessel of some sort within Magic x 100 meters there is essentially no point to even summon one. Half the time it won't even be able to possess dirt much less something with movable parts that would make it mobile. Now, compare that to a Materialization spirit, it has no problem Materializing and doing what you ask.

So, something basic, like activating a fire alarm to cause a diversion. A Force 1 Materialization spirit just appears and does it - no hassle, no luck involved. A Force 1 possession could *try* to possess the fire alarm... but that would probably mean overcoming a 4 object resistance which isn't going to happen otherwise it has to possess something else and that something has to be able to reach a fire alarm and the spirit has to overcome its object resistance.

When you use the example of activating a fire alarm, what do you mean? What are the circumstances that you can't just pull it yourself? And a possession mage should never be without a prepared vessel, something like a wooden ring, an ivory tooth, a quartz earring, or a silk hair braid, each of which would have an object resistance of 1, be relatively concealable, and viable as a prepared vessel, which would give it 8 dice to possess, not 2. You would then be able to have said spirit use any of its powers. No, it wouldn't be mobile and wouldn't be able to pull the fire alarm, you would need a force 3 spirit for that with psychokinesis as an optional power, but it would then have 3 hands and could pull 3 fire alarms from any distance, not just one

So yes, in a circumstance where you would need to pull a fire alarm with a spirit and wouldn't be able to summon a force 3 spirit to do it, a materialization spirit would be superior.

The simplest reading of the Possession and Vessels sidebar is that the values of the possessing spirit's mental and special attributes are used as the values of the mental and special attributes of the combined being that results.

While it is certainly possible to read 'the spirit's Mental and Special attributes are used' as meaning that the combined being actually doesn't have it's own Mental and Special attributes but the part of the Spirit that possesses those attributes remains separate from the combined being whilst still controlling it, that is only one possible meaning of those words and I put it to you that this is a stretch at best.

A combined being is a combined being. There is no Spirit and there is no vessel there is only the combined being. Whether or not a particular attribute is the spirit's, the vessel's or both combined doesn't matter. That is the value of that attribute the combined being uses for all purposes. When you introduce channelling and the combined being has two minds that both share control of the combined being they both use the same attributes for all purposes.

Unless you choose to interpret channelling as so obviously using the Magician's Mental and Special attributes for his own skill use that it doesn't need stating, then the Magician's skill use benefits from the combined being's attributes for all purposes.

There is no point repeating that the attributes used are the spirit's. Mechanically the spirit has ceased to exist, there is only the combined being.

You are placing way, way to specific a meaning onto the word 'used'. Without further clarification in the text that supports that interpretation you simply cannot exclude all the other possible meanings of the word to deny a character access to so fundamental an ability as Edge.

SM pg. 95
Spirits and Edge
A spirit is generally under the control of the magician who
conjured it, but to one degree or another it is still an independent
entity. Even while bound and compelled to obey, a spirit
has its own fate and its own free will—as such, a magician cannot
compel a spirit to use (or not use) Edge on a given test.
Spirits will likely use Edge to save themselves from disruption
or banishment, or to assist with the completion of a goal important
to the spirit or if completion of a service demands. Any
use of Edge is at the discretion of the gamemaster.
Spirits can also use Edge to assist their resistance roll to
the original summoning, but will generally not do so unless
the discrepancy in power between them and an impudent
conjurer is large or the conjurer has a history of mistreating
spirits. And yes, spirits do know if a conjurer has mistreated
other spirits. Whether the rumor mill in the metaplanes
works really fast or spirits can somehow pick up the telltales
in a conjurer’s aura, the spirits know if a magician’s been bad
or good.

DG pg 10
RESOLVING POSSESSION
Th e following notes are meant to complement, clarify and
illustrate the rules on spirit Possession, p. 101, Street Magic.
Spirits conjured by Possession traditions are intended to
be as easy to manage as spirits conjured by other traditions. Th e
only signifi cant diff erence between Possession spirits and materializing
spirits is the manner in which they bridge the barrier
from astral to physical. Otherwise, such spirits behave just like
other spirits in all respects and the rules for spirits apply equally
to spirits with Possession.
It is important to keep in mind that once possessing a vessel,
the spirit’s mind and not the vessel’s is in control, and the spirit
does not have access to the vessel’s knowledge or skillset.


SM pg 54-55
The Channeling magician can use her own skills and has fine motor control
over her body while enjoying the enhancing benefits of the
Possession power (see p. 101). Control is still shared, however,
and the magician is unable to tap the possessing spirit’s
powers without expending a service. Additionally, the vessel
resists any mana spells or powers with the lowest Mental attribute
of the two minds (whichever is lower, the spirit’s or
the magician’s). Otherwise, resolve the effects and duration of
Possession normally (see p. 101).

SM pg 101
Living Vessels
If the vessel is a living creature, the spirit’s
Force is added to the vessel’s Physical attributes.
While possessed, the spirit’s Mental and Special
attributes are used (which means that a possessed
technomancer cannot access Resonance),
with Initiative recalculated as normal (use the
spirit’s normal Initiative Passes). The spirit is in
full physical control of the vessel, but does not
have access to the host’s knowledge, skills, or
experience. The mind of the vessel remains in
whatever state it was when possession began;
if conscious, it becomes an impotent witness
locked inside its own body for the duration.
Possessing spirits cannot perceive or operate
AR or direct neural or cybernetic interfaces,
and do not benefit from implants, cyberware,
or nanoware that would require active control
(i.e.: a spirit can benefit from a vessel’s bone
lacing or eye replacement, but cannot activate
vision enhancements or a datajack).

--
You can't make a spirit use its edge.
When possessed your *special* attributes are the spirit's... not yours. Like the SM says, you don't have access to your special attributes otherwise a possessed technomancer could use Resonance. Since you don't have access to your Edge you can't spend your Edge. The possessed vessel is using the spirit's Edge so only the spirit can decide to use Edge.

You lose the ability to access Edge but you gain the ability to use the spirit's Magic (not to mention the other perks).

Mechanically the spirit has ceased to exist? You still have to beg the thing for services if you want to use a power, the magician is in control of the vessel, and the two of their minds remain separate and apart. They may be sharing a body, but mechanically they are still two separate beings, in mind if not body. You keep saying that the two become one being, but besides one very fluffy sentence in street magic I have seen nothing mechanically to support this opinion. And you may say that the simplest interpretation of the possession sidebar has it that the possessed being simply has mental and special attributes equal to the possessing spirits, but just because you want to simplify the rules to fit your own argument doesn't make the words in the book rearrange themselves. The sidebar still says "the spirit’s Mental and Special attributes are used," not "the combined being has Mental and Special attributes equal to that of the possessing spirit," and has a significantly different meaning from the argument you are trying to support.

And once again you've COMPLETELY missed the point.

The rules don't say anything at all about the attribute maximums OR THE LACK OF MAXIMUMs on SPECIFIC critters. The rules are silent. The books ONLY TAKE THE TIME to define attribute maximums for PLAYABLE characters (BBB, RC w/ all it's new 'playable' options). Critter is a general term... it flies in the face of common sense to say that while you can only augment a human so far, a mouse can be boosted to infinity (we'll call him Mighty Mouse). So lumping specifics under a single term doesn't work. (all attribute maximums for playable sapients include maximums specific to a specific type).

The entire point of a GM isn't to 'house rule' but to arbitrate a fun game for everyone involved. This isn't a wargame, it's not you versus the GM. The GM is there to play this out and at the same time play cop to stop one player from stepping all over the other players.




And on shapechange... read the spell. Ork has a max augmented str of 12 IIRC... also ANYTHING w/ a str1 can support it's own body weight. We've had devs state as much in the past... (they just can't move much more than their own bodyweight of that's the case, and defaulting str to move faster obviously won't work so well). I don't follow the logic of your 'counter-example' at all. So yes, ork shapeshifts into elephant... he gains body up to his max, his str caps out at 12, his other physical attributes go to the starting of 4/3 +1 net hit up to max of 9 (orkish max). All for a single spell... He's increased is str by *10* points, gained some natural weapons, +2 reach, etc. You make it sound like no gain, especially considering how easily he can shift to a new form when an elephant no longer suits his needs.

This is no different than saying, magic can only take you so far.... your body won't hold up if you try and go farther than this.

Increase attribute just says +1 per hit as well... it doesn't mention maximums either. Does that mean I can augment my wilpower to 15 or 16 w/ 10 hits on a increase test.

The strict reading that Possession prevents the vessel from using Edge in any way, along with the FAQ change to Augmented attribute maxes, really supports the idea that Possession is now significantly inferior to Materialization. In fact, those rulings make Channeling especially bad since it's now something you pay Karma for that actively hurts your character.

It's a good thing you can still use Invoking to get spirits with Endowment in order to gain Possession so you can just possess yourself and ignore the spirit rules.

Edit: and quickie on Falconer's take on Shapechange. It really does seem weird to me that an Orc or Troll that Shapechanges into a Hippo or Rhino from Running Wild would not be able to even have the base Str of either of those creatures regardless of the number of hits on the spellcasting test. Both come stock with 16 Str which is already 1 higher than the aug max of a Troll and 4 higher than that of an Orc.

I subscribe to the new entity concept in both Possession and Shapechange, personally, so those augmented caps wouldn't worry me at my table. Plus, as it states in my sig, we don't currently use the FAQ or even the Errata or SR4A currently. But it's an interesting debate to me, nonetheless.

I understand your point, but again what are the stats in *your* game if a force 10 spirit possesses a small plastic action figure? What about a dead rat? As far as increase attribute, the answer is no, you are still a defined metatype with stated attribute limits. When you are an elephant, you are no longer a metahuman.

I might agree with you that materialization spirits were better than possession spirits if most magicians summoned spirits at force 1-2 or force 7-impossible on a regular basis. However, most magicians summon spirits at their max magic rating, so force 4-6, and it's at that level that possession spirits tend to be superior to materialization spirits. At that level, a spirit can possess most mundanes and when the spirit possesses its summoner it's likely to increase drain stats and physical stats to a point before reaching augmented maximums. Possession spirits still tend to have higher attributes than materialization spirits, still get the armor and weapons of their possessing vessel, still take out a mook when they enter the physical realm, and still grant ITNW to their possessee, or possessee's armor if you want to get munchkinny. The new changes don't nerf possession spirits to a point below materialization spirits, they bring them to a level where you actually can choose to use one or the other in terms of flavor or planned use without crippling your mage.

Admittedly, I don't think channeling should bar a mage from using his own edge. In an actual game, with a GM doing his job, this argument would be settled by him and would probably be different from the way the rules were written. The main reason I've been arguing for that particular interpretation was because crizh was using it as an argument against channeling mages using spirits mental stats for balance reasons, one of which was that they would have the ability to spend/burn a meaningless edge pool with the rules as written. I've primarily just been arguing academically and have my own ideas about how channeling should be handled in game.

Yep. Patrick is actually making the challenge even easier by excluding very high force spirits.

crizh: Everyone else seems to be covering the Edge issue, so there's little point in my just repeating what others have said. I'll just respond to the below which is all I have time for...



It is not a cheap dig. Your proposed builds (or at least what I extrapolated from snippets you use to support your arguments), are terrible. Suicide time-bombs of characters with little utility outside of a dungeon-crawl. And even then, a short dungeon crawl where they aren't called on to sustain their efforts in non-optimal circumstances. You have a Force 12 Ally spirit for example. By the book, that's going to walk the first chance it gets. And that includes the character being incapacitated by Physical damage. At this point, the spirit makes a break free test and does an average of 8P drain damage. Congratulations, you've created a character that explodes instantly when its condition monitor is full. If you're characters are routinely using Force 8+ spirits, then they must have sacrificed a lot to get there. They're probably weak on spells, weak generally. And their schtick is to possess themselves and get into fights. But if they're using Force 8+ spirits, then I can only presume that they're facing commensurate opposition. So what happens when a couple of other Force 8 spirits show up and start tearing him apart in Astral Combat because he's now dual natured? Basically, your characters to be this extremely powerful in the area of summoning, must have a lot of comparative weaknesses. Not least of which is how long they can keep this up. "I have killed the guards. Now I depart to the spirit realm". Then the next three guards. Then the next. I could go on. In a realistic game where the GM isn't indulging you by letting you dictate terms of the game, these characters are dangerously vulnerable.

It's not "a cheap dig".

K.

K, from what I read from your posts, I get the strange idea that the GM will be dribbling in 3 guards at a time. So instead of "all guards respond to disturbance at sector 3", I get the distinct image of "team A, respond to disturbance. team B, please hold at sector 4 before the corner until team A is dead".

When I stat my opposition, I do not stat them with respect to the runners, I stat them with respect to what they are guarding - high value targets get better guards. The J may or may not have done his homework well and got his value for money, he could be sending them against poorly trained rent-a-cops with no magical backup. That is a realistic game. And no, I do not indulge my players, but they can dictate the terms of IC engagement vis-a-vis the security arrangement if they are good and runners are supposed to be damn good.

Holy Hannah, you guys are sure determined to twist yourself in knots to support your case here.

If the Drain Stat's and Magic 'used' by the the combined being are the Spirit's why is the Magician permitted to use them any more than he is permitted to use Edge?

Street Magic has no sidebar stating that a Magician is not able to cast spells through a Spirit and use it's Magic stat as if it were his own. It doesn't need one.

I cannot for the life of me understand why you can't get your heads around this.

If you are permitting a Magician to use the Spirit's Magic stat as if it were his own you must also permit him to use it's Edge stat as if it were his own.

Whatever logic makes the first use legal applies equally to the second.

I will repeat, yet again, Street Magic prevents a Magician from ordering a Spirit to spend it's own Edge not from spending his own Edge or anything that might somehow substitute as his own.

-----

Knasser

I've not proposed any builds.

You are making assumptions to denigrate me and my position.

I won't justify that behavior by responding to it.

Because the rules state you can't make a spirit use it's Edge. It is really that simple. You can't make it use its Edge but you can make it use its Magic. You can even make a bound spirit destroy itself by sustaining... but you can't make it use Edge. There is no sidebar about Magic because you can use the spirit's Magic. There is a sidebar about Edge because you *can't* use a spirit's Edge. You aren't "permitting" the mage to use the spirit's Magic because the rules never say you *can't* use it's Magic. One special stat doesn't equal the other. Again, if a possessed Technomancer can't use his Resonance then the same possessed Technomancer can't use his Edge. A possessed Magician can't use his Magic or Edge but since the spirit has a Magic stat he *can* use the spirit's Magic. He cannot use the spirit's Edge because rules say you can't make a spirit use Edge.

Why?

1) The rules don't say you can't use a spirit's Magic.
2) A Mage can have a Materialization spirit cast a spell (using the spirit's Magic).
3) A Possession spirit and a Materialization spirit follow the same rules unless stated otherwise.

So, a Materialization Mage summons a Force 8 Spirit of Man and gives it the spell Fireball. The Mage says "cast a Force 8 Fireball", and the spirit does it using its Magic attribute and uses its stats for the drain. However, the Mage can't say "use your Edge to cast a Force 16 Fireball" because the mage can't make the spirit use Edge.

Now, a Possession Mage (with Channeling because this is necessary to use spellcasting skill) is Possessed by a Force 8 whatever. He can now use his skills and wants to cast a Fireball. He does not have access to his Magic attribute (when possessed the spirit's special attributes are used) but he has access to the spirit's. The spirit has Magic 8 so he can cast a Force 8 Fireball without overcasting. However, as with Materialization spirits, you can't have a spirit use its Edge and its Edge attribute is the only thing you have access to.

Why does he have access to the spirit's Magic?

Did you not read/understand what I said?

Why doesn't he have access to the spirit's Magic?

Funny. From where we stand, you're the one that looks knotty. As follows:



Let's phrase that more precisely. If a magician is permitted to make rolls based on the spirit's Magic attribute, the magician is permitted to spend the spirit's Edge points. You see, that just doesn't follow. Making a roll based on an attribute is not the same thing as spending Edge points. You don't get to spend the Edge of a spirit when it is materialised. Others have put this better already - nothing changes about that when the spirit possesses you. Not under normal possession, and not under Channeling. Channeling is precise about what it changes from normal possession. You gain motor control over your body, access to your skills is gained. It doesn't suddenly grant you the choice of burning edge any more than it grants you the ability of making the spirit perform free services. Chanelling is specific: everything else is handled as normal for possession. Motor control and skills, that's all you get.




The vessel-spirit entity is not under the magician's control except within the stated parameters. This is made very clear.




You just did respond to it and I'm not denigrating you or making things up. Earlier you were talking about summoning Force 12 spirits. You've been using Force 12 Ally spirits in your arguments. No, those aren't complete builds which isn't what I said - they give me an idea of what these builds must be like. You're basing arguments on these builds so of course people respond. You can't say "a character will just use their Force 12 Ally Spirit" without people challenging whether a character with such investment can avoid crippling itself with weaknesses. You can't make arguments based on routinely using Force 12 spirits without people questioning the maths of it or pointing out that a build capable of this will be unsuited to a wide range of non-dungeony scenarios through the sheer focus required to get the necessary dice pools.

This is the third time you have accused me of "being insulting", "taking cheap digs" and now "makig assumptions to denigrate you and your position". Pointing out flaws in your argument is not being insulting and if you identify with your "position" to the point that any criticism of it is denigrating you, then there's nothing I can do about that or would do about that. I've apologised for any unintended insult and I'll do so again now - it's not my intention.



Heh. Don't worry - I have the same approach. Realistic deployments, realistic resources. What I was criticising was the approach that you are criticising, though perhaps phrases weren't properly explained by me. I may or may not have said "the characters dictating the terms of engagement", but I think I said players and that is what I meant. If characters want to concoct all sorts of plans to ensure battles are on favourable terms to themselves, that's, well, pretty necessary in my games. But when the players get to dictate the terms of engagement in the game, i.e. the GM not being realistic and saying: "the players are X strong, I'll make the guards X strong too and feed them to the players in a series of D&D style encounters regardless of realism" because that's what the players expect and have built their characters to be suited for, that's a problem. We are in agreement, there is a confusion of what I meant. Of course the PCs are suited to the mission they face, but that's because powerful characters steal highly guarded valuable artifacts and low power characters steal lightly guarded cheap prototypes, etc. Not because of some arbitrary encounter balance formula. Just as an aside, the challenge level is dictated by far more than the combat power of the opposition. My players can take a run against the Aztechnology pyramid if there's a scenario where an insider can get them past some of the security making its power irrelevant.

Pretty much.

None of it answered the question I had posed.

So I repeated the question just in case you had missed it the first time.

Nothing gives you the ability to cast spells using another beings Magic stat instead of your own.

You may ask a spirit to cast it's own spells with it's own Magic stat for you.

Under no circumstance does that spirit occupying your body change that.

If you want to contend that possession changes that then you must cite a source.

My suspicion is that the only source you are going to be able to cite will be the Possession and Vessels sidebar.

'the combined being that results [uses] the spirit's Mental and Special attributes'

If, in any particular action phase, a channelling Magician chooses to cast a spell he '[uses] the spirit's Mental and Special attributes' to do so.

He does not ask the spirit to do it for him. It does not know his spells and likely does not even have the Spellcasting Skill. He does it himself and by your logic '[uses] the spirit's Mental and Special attributes' as if they were his own to do so. All of them.

Unless you can cite another reason why a Magician may use the Spirit's Magic stat as if it were his own that does not by definition extend the same privileges to the Edge stat, perhaps by explicitly stating Magic rather than Special attributes....

Per the new fact:
Can a spirit with Endowment use it to grant a character Materialization?

A spirit with Endowment can share any power it possesses. When using the power the character uses the spirit's attributes for any tests necessary for the power, as the power originates from the spirit.

Which means a Task Spirit, with Endowment, can give you the Accident power. You get to use the spirit's magic - and you aren't even possessed.



You can't use a spirit's Edge ever. The rules say nothing about magic, and the above example with Endowment is very clear that you can use a spirit's Magic.

Is it really so different than using the physical stats? I can make the same argument you are and say "nowhere ever do you get to use another person's str". Well, possession add the spirit's str to yours. You get to use it up to your augmented maximum.

Channeling lets you use your skills when you are possessed.. but not your attributes (other than what was explicitly stated). Possession is very clear on where you get the attributes from and so is Channeling.

If you have Channeling:
1) Can you use your skills? Yes.
2) Can you use spellcasting? Yes.
3) What is the possessed vessel's Magic attribute - it is the spirit's.
Skill (yours or spirit's the rules don't specify which if both have the skill) + Attribute (Magic - you don't have access to your stat so you have to use the spirit's). Can you use Edge? Not while being possessed since it is the spirit's.

The bolded text is an explicit exception to the default position.

Supply one for Possession.



Bolded text corrects yours to make my point.

The rules say nothing about not being able to spend Edge on tests related to Endowment. They are very clear however that it is the Spirit's attribute that you use for any test. If you choose to spend Edge on an Edge test for a power gained from Endowment (like Wealth) it is the Spirit's Edge that you spend unless there is explicit text in the ability denying the ability to spend Edge on the test, as Skillwires do.

You have comprehensively failed, again, to identify any reason why a Magician can use a possessing Spirit's Magic as his own other than the text in the sidebar that applies equally to Edge.

I don't need to supply one for possession. The sidebar, which you keep pretending doesn't exist, says the possessed vessel has the spirit's Magic. How about you show me one place where it states you can't use the spirit's Magic in that situation? I can show you a section where it says you can't use that Edge. I have shown that yes, it is possible to use another being's special attributes *specifically Magic*, I have shown where it states you can't use a spirit's Edge, I have shown where it states you cannot use your special attributes because they are replaced with the spirit's (a technomancer can't use Resonance because it has been replaced, a Mage can't use his Magic because it has been replaced). Where is your textual basis for using special attributes that have been replaced? Where is your textual basis where you can use *your* Edge while being possessed despite it being replaced by the spirit's? The rules all support what I have been saying, it does not support any of yours.

The rules are in the spoiler. If a Materialized spirit uses its Magic when casting a spell then the Possession spirit uses its magic when casting a spell as per RAW.

No you cannot.

You can show me where it says I can't compel a spirit to spend it's own Edge when it Acts.

You have failed to demonstrate that this Edge does not effectively become the same as the Magicians Edge when he Acts due to Channelling.

You have failed to show how being able to use the Special attribute of Magic is differentiated from using the Special attribute of Edge when permitted to Act due to Channelling.

----

This debate is about knasser's strict interpretation of what stat's a Channelling Magician uses.

When reading the RAW strictly you must stick precisely to the text.

There is a clear qualitative difference between a Spirit being forced to spend it's own Edge and having that Edge spent for it by another.

Frankly it is my contention that knasser's interpretation of RAW here is nonsensical.

I have never seen anyone come to that conclusion before and it was clearly intended as a form of mental gymnastics designed to create an unintentional de-buff to possession traditions that is never explicitly called out anywhere in the rules. The fact that it massively de-buffs low power characters and has the exact opposite effect on high power characters only goes to emphasize that it is a ridiculous idea.

Ok, pulled out my copy of Street Magic, and I'll try to see where this goes.

One, I don't see anything indicating that a Mage can now force the spirit to use Edge. So I can't see why anyone would assume that you would be able to when you're channeling. But, you do have the Spirits Edge as an attribute, both as a possessed or channeling mage. In conditions where you're GM requires an Edge test (mine does in cases where dumb shit luck means something), then yeah, you'll roll at the spirits level.

Further when performing services, the spirit can and maybe quite willing to use, depending on their relationship with the mage, Edge. But that's clearly a decision of the spirit, and if your GM lets either your channeler or possessed mage roleplay for the spirit, the GM is well within his rights to tell you that the spirit doesn't like your character well enough to expend it's Edge.

Finally, I don't see anywhere that describes the two as merging into one combined entity, even in channeling it's very clear through implication that there are two minds present. It just measn that the mage is no longer merely an impotent watcher in his body, and now an active member of the committee process.

I didn't realise I had a personal ownership of this reading of the rules. Without wishing to sound too self-effacing, I think I have to point out that there are multiple people arguing over this with you. By the way, you now appear to be skipping my posts.



It is exactly what the books say, as people keep pointing out to you.



Well I brought it up so I ought to know what my intention was and I can tell you that it is no form of mental gymnastics, it's just the most fitting and natural interpretation to me and clearly to others. This is the fourth time you've started talking about me in prejudice terms. I'm now apparently twisting things to support some strained argument, am I? It's really beyond your belief that this is what I consider to be the actual RAW without having to have some sort of ulterior motive to "design" this interpretation. That's not very kind. If nothing else, the fact that more people hold my position than hold yours (one, in that case, I think) ought to at least suggest it's possible to hold take my position without having some bias or need to prove anything.



So you're now arguing against it being RAW because "it de-buffs low-power characters and has the opposite effect on high-power characters" and you consider that to be ridiculous. I consider it obvious that your assessment on whether something is too-powerful or too-weak isn't an argument for or against the rules being that way, so I'll just comment on your judgement that it has these effects. Yes, it makes channeling lower power spirits less effective than it would be otherwise. With higher power spirits, it's circumstantial. Need to spend Edge? It's a big disadvantage. Just need to use Magic? It's a moderate advantage.

K.

Possession and Vessels sidebar, Street Magic p102

'the combined being that results'

The bolded words are singular.

This is a discussion about strict RAW.

Everything that follows in that sidebar describes the abilities of that singular being.

Regardless of Channelling permitting the Magician's mind to share control of that being it remains a singular being.

It may have two minds but strictly speaking it only has one set of stats.

A bit like Multiple Personality Disorder.

STRICT reading, then:

1) A combined being (SM, p.102)
2) a magician cannot compel a spirit to use (or not use) Edge on a given test. (SM, p.95)
3) Control is still shared (SM, p.54-55)

Strictly speaking (ie: using the most restrictive reading of the rules as written), how can you interpret those rules to allow a Channeling magician to use Edge that isn't entirely his own? Even using your interpretation of how the Special attributes of the possessed vessel are the shared property of both entities making up the dual being, the fact remains that you would be SPENDING THE SPIRIT'S EDGE.

If, for example, you and I share a jar full of money, and I don't have the authority to force you to spend any of it, then I CAN'T SPEND ANY OF IT IF YOU DON'T WANT TO.

STRICT READING. "...a magician cannot compel a spirit to use (or not use) Edge".

Now, you've brought up the use of Edge in tests like avoiding suppressing fire (Reaction + Edge) as supporting your position, but this is not a valid counterargument. Someone with Edge 4 who has 0 Edge available to spend still has an Edge of 4. You can spend your available Edge until the cows come home, and it the attribute dice will still be there when you have to use Edge to determine a die pool.

The narrowest way to interpret the rules is that the spirit always has veto power over Available Edge that it has access to being spent. Any other interpretation is sophistry and "mental gymnastics" in an attempt to twist the straightforward language of the rules.

Wow, did you totally "the adults are talking" me?

First, you should already know you're playing hard and fast with the rules, both of Shadowrun, and written English at this point. That's fine, but pretty much everyone at the table knows that you are, so don't act affronted if and when we call you on it.

Second, it makes it very clear in SR4a that you can't compel a spirit to spend edge. There is no statement in Street Magic that changes that in regards to possession or channeling. SR4s does make it clear that the spirit can elect to spend Edge on it's own. That's all RAW. I gave you an out in regards to this, but I'll be damned if you act like a condescending twit when I threw you a bone.

Third, Street Magic is very clear that there are still two minds at work both in channeling and possession. I invite you to count how often it mentions two minds or entities and compare them to the one instance where the singular was used. In regards to possession, it's also made clear that you are an impotent observer. It's for the sake of playability that you are allowed to roleplay as the spirit. That isn't the case in regards to channeling, you've now reached a balance between an NPC. Guess what, it's well within your GM's rights to play the spirit in that case, since your player now has something to do.

Finally, there is evidence in RAW that two sets of stats still exist in channeling, although since I do not have my copy on hand I'm pulling this off my shite memory here. But I'm positive at one point it does state that the lower mental attribute is used in regards to at least one kind of test. Pretty much makes it clear to me that two sets of stats still exist, not the one set you claim.