Only if you mix multiplication and addition. For example, if you have an effect that gives +10 to a stat, and an effect that gives +100% to the same stat, applying one before the other can make a difference of + or - 10. That can be solved with a general rule like "apply all additive effects first, then multiplicative effects" (or vice versa. It doesn't really matter as long as you're consistent.)



When did this change from what's in Augmentation? (Augmentation says it multiplies using real math, rather than some D&D-math-lite)

It isn't D&D-math-lite. A developer said that modifiers are added together THEN applied to Essence. Like CeeJay said:

I mean Emy, why would anyone get regular cyberware when you can get secondhand Alpha 'ware for the same price, but a little easier on your Essence?

Which developer and where? Why should I take that over what's actually written in the relevant rulebook?


I agree that it's absurd--and I never said otherwise--but that's how it works.

As CeeJay said, Augmentation spells that out, and even uses secondhand Alphaware as its example. x.96 essence cost, x1 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) cost

The dev post was after Augmentation was released. Basically, the text in Augmentation was incorrect.

Besides, it simply makes things far easier to figure up if all modifiers (positive and negative) are summed first and then multiplied against the base value.

Of course it is, adding multiplicators together would be an exception and not exactly the mathematically correct way.


The German printing of Augmentation includes the errata, want to guess what approach is used there? It ends with "plication" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

My German is rusty at best, but could we please see the exact wording?
Or better yet, a scan or a photo of just that line, if it's not too much to ask for.

Why does 'real math' matter? This isn't a math class. We're talking game design. 'Real math' isn't the most critical factor. Good design is.

There shouldn't be an "Only if". If a mechanic is designed properly there shouldn't be conditionals like that.

Having all modifiers adjust the base value avoids the need for conditionals - you're not required to keep adding additional rules on top of it just to clarify and explain the original rule. Which is what adding in "apply all additive effects first, then multiplicative effects" is. Extra rules just to clarify other rules.

Bad design.


-karma

I vaguely remember having read that somewhere here on Dumpshock... Could you link to that thread?

Besides, adding several multipliers before multiplying with a base value, makes the mathmatician in me cringe. Sometimes I think this (wrong) math stems from the habit of using percentage values as modifiers. A +10% modifier and a -10% modifier seem to cancel each other out but that's not the case.

Of course it's much easier to calculate that way and as KarmaInferno said game design is an important factor as well. Who likes to play a game requiring constant use of a calculator. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

-CJ

That post was made by Synner(line developer at the time) and its from the augmentation Errata that still hasn't been released.
There have been periodical wondering on why its hasn't been realised, even from those who wrote it, becouse at some point it was ready and to be posted at the SR4 site, but for some reason it wasn't posted.

Sure, just open your copy of Augmentation and look at the lines in question, they are exactly the same in both languages (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
- The example for used cyberlimbs uses the same calculation
- THe compiled tables at the end list both used cyber and implant grades as "essence cost multipliers"
- Nowhere does the description of the new qualities or Adapsin say "ignore what you learned about math and calculate it like this:"

Since all other parts of the evasive Augmentation Errata have been included (at least as far as we were told), I find it hard to believe that we are supposed to use wrong math although it's not mentioned anywhere.


And @Ceejay: The cost modifiers are nice even numbers, who needs a calculator to calculate something like 1.2*0.9*0.9? 9*9 is 81, 81*12 is 810 + 160 +2, final cost modifier is 0.972 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Lazy people like me? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Of course, I also use an excel spreadsheet regularly when making characters, so for me it comes down to the question of excel using the correct formula to calculate essence costs.

-CJ

First you say the German version has the way multiple modifiers work explicitly stated, now you return to logical arguments. I concur with the logic behind them, but if it's covered in canon material specifically, why wouldn't you just quote it and thus end the discussion? And there's no errata neither in nor for English Augmentation.

It may make you cringe but when that +10% & the -10% are EACH of the base value, it makes perfect sense.

2nd hand ware is +20% Essence cost.

Alpha ware is -10% Essence Cost.

So 2nd Hand Alpha ware is +10% Essence over Standard or a 1.1 multiplier. It makes perfect sense. It also does NOT violate the EBMDAS rules. You aren't making fruit salad of addition & multiplication. You are keeping them confined to their respective areas.

Besides, 100 + (-10% + 20%) IS mathmatically different from (100-10%) +20%

100 + (-10% + 20%) = 110
(100-10%) +20% = 108
(100+20%) - 10% = 108

Think of it another way. Where I live has a 5% sales tax and a 6.5% Restaurant tax. Assume I buy $100 of stuff. After sales tax, I pay $105. Now if that was food from a restaurant, the bill would have been...

$111.50: $100 (base cost of the bill) +$5 (5% Sales tax) +$6.5 (6.5% Restaurant tax).

It would not have been ($100 +$5) + 6.5% Restaurant tax. Doing it this way would make it...

($100 +$5) +6.5% or $111.825. As you can see, that does significantly change the outcome.

This is the reason that all modifiers are based off the base value in question, not the modified value. Thus, if you have a discount and a price increaser, you add those values together BEFORE applying the result to the base price.

Besides, if adding multipliers together makes the mathmatician in you cringe, then "A(+2x - 5x)" should make you cry. That little tidbit of algebra is exactly what is being done by adding all multipliers (X in the example formula) together and then applying them to a base value (A in the example formula).

So, assuming addition our best effect is:
Base (100%)
Delta (-50%)
Suite (-10%)
Biocompatability (-10%)
Adapsin (-10%)

= 20% of base, allowing for ~29.49 "base Essence" worth of cyberware

Assuming multiplication, our best effect is:
Base (100%)
Delta (x0.5)
Suite (x0.9)
Biocompatability (x0.9)
Adapsin (x0.9)

= 36.45% of base, allowing for ~16.18 "base Essence" worth of cyberware

@darthmord: Alpha ware is a 20% reduction in the Essence cost, not a 10%. This makes getting secondhand alpha ware just as Essence "friendly" as standard 'ware.

Not according to the math in the example in Arsenal on page 32. A book that is still, sadly, lacking any errata.

Now if everything were actually handled as a percentage off the base essence cost...

You may be able to get that much cyberware....but WHAT would you get? Bioware just seems much more useful.

It does in the example for used 'ware.


There is and several writers have told that they have it on their disk, but for some reason they never bothered the release it to us common folk. Pegasus sent in some deniable assets and was able to secure a copy of the errata for the German printing.

Move-by-Wire 3, reaction enhancers, four modular cyberlimbs, a cybertorso and a cyberskull, cybereyes and cyberears - all for under 5.40 Essence (this is with Adapsin and eight Genetic Optimization treatments factored in).

All my physical attributes are now at augmented maximum + 1, and I still have room for 1.2 Essence worth of bioware. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

At which point you add in some fun stuff like Trauma Damper and Platelet Factories...

Keep the Faith

The German Version of Augmentation has the Errata in it and therefore quite some changes.

Important for this thread is: there are no more cyber-essence-holes and bio-essence-holes. You just get a essence hole, no matter what you remove.

There are some other things, like a nanno biomonitor adds +1 rating to any medical nannites you have.

According to insiders this Errata is around since August 08, but nobody bothers to release them. It is like the RC errata which was promised over and over again, but has not been seen until now. I guess, if it takes 7month to put a new FAQ on the website, you cannot expect to much.

cya
Tycho

Well, yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And I forgot the Skillwire Expert System for the Move-by-Wire. So there's 5.50 Essence spent, and we're two thirds of the way to the ideal 6-million-Nuyen mark.

Thanks for the correction. I didn't have my book handy when I wrote that.

But it still keeps my point the same. The cost modifiers should be additive with each other first and then multiplicative with the base cost.