So when it comes to edge rolls for things like covering fire or resisting the berserk forever effect of K-10, how do you handle the grunt's edge roll? They don't have edge of their own really, just a pool based on their professional rating. So would you give each grunt edge dice equal to their professional rating or divide the professional rating among the number of grunts?
I guess the K-10 effect could easily be GM hand waved but how about the dodge on covering fire?

They get the full Edge dice amount, IMO. The limiting factor is that they're sharing a pool. So if you have 4 Edge Pool and 4 grunts, and all 4 blow a point of edge on turn 1, well, sure, they all get to act cool for a turn. But then they're out. All 4 edge are gone, and they're hosed.

Bull

Ok so that brings up another point, does it cost a point of edge for that roll? From the description in suppressive fire it seems edge is just used as the other attribute in the roll. I don't know that it means it costs you a point of edge to make the roll. It seems like its just your luck seeing if you get hit or not.

I am more inclined to go with no Edge at all, unless each Grunt that the roll is applicable to uses up 1 use of that Group Edge.



Thus each Grunt rolls only Reaction unless, he spends a use of Group Edge to roll Reaction + Edge.

No Edge is being spent here. In this example, as well as a few others (such as testing to see if a genetic infusion becomes permanent), Edge is being used as a genuine attribute and one representing your overall "luck." If Edge were being spent, they'd say as much, just like they do every other time you can use Edge in the standard fashion. It would be worded more like "...must make a Reaction (+ Dodge if on full defense) Test and they may spend Edge to improve their chances."

As to how it affects grunts and the like? I honestly don't know. I hate shared dice mechanics like that so I never use them because, frankly, they don't make a damn bit of sense if you're not also treating the group as a single entity in every other way, too.

I've gone for the group edge. Note that most civilians and other groups with professional rating 0 will not have any edge score at all, and thus have no edge to throw. But that a group of Elite Tir Ghosts would have no edge dice to resist Suppressive Fire is kinda silly... and not at all RAW.

Same thing applies to Edge tests to avoid Serious Damage if you use the option from Augmentation.

I never found it problematic to just give every living being on the planet the edge it deserves. All my NPC's even Grunt-squads have edge (different and personal). They also don't have a professionalism-pool. They tend to only use it to reroll failure in defense... but depending on their motivation they may use it for attacks (Never happened yet). Also they are mooks and as such normaly only have about 1-2 edge. Humans maybe 3. Every NPC who stands out of squads and has singular motivations and a place in the campaign may have more.

Never understood the reason of giving them the professionalism rating as free dice to anything. Clashes with the game itself. I just have an easy edge-counter after their condition monitor.

Strictly speaking by RAW, Grunts do not have Edge.

Which gets us into a PC specialness and what level do people want that angle. If it makes you feel better you may preface everything that I'm about to say with the fact that it is a houserule mentally I will certianly not be offended.

I've always felt that if we have every single summoned spirit and sprite in the game have an edge statistic (and a usually pretty significant one at that) then all the "normal" humans should have one too. So at the very least I would have mooks be considered to have edge ratings equal to their PR.

No, strictly speaking they don't have individual Edge - they have group edge instead. Also, the whole point about group Edge is that you don't want 10 mooks all being able to reroll 4 times in a single combat, since the PCs have to conserve their Edge for use over multiple combats or even for the duration of a mission.

I never disputed the fact that Grunts have Group Edge. But Group Edge is not actually Edge. Thus strictly speaking I am right, they do not have Edge, they have Group Edge.

Yes but one could make the point that edge doesn't differentiate between group edge or individual edge.

I Think that you are stretching that there Toturi... Edge is Edge, whether it is Individual Edge or Group Edge... it is spent in exactly the same manner... Mooks have Group Edge... as such, any roll calling for an Edge TEST benefits the entire group...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Group Edge is a special rule that applies to Grunts, which has certain similar specifically stated applications as Edge. Grunts do not have individual Edge (note "individual" is not capitalised) nor do Grunts have an Edge attribute.

By strict reading, Edge != Group Edge and unless the rule states to roll Group Edge, substituting Group Edge for Edge is not RAW. If Grunts had "Edge = Professional Rating* or Group Edge (see Group Edge rules)" or some such notation under their stats, there might be a case by RAW for rolling Group Edge when there is an Edge Test. However, there is no Edge stat for Grunts.

Strictly speaking, Group Edge should not be applicable where the rules refer to Edge. Both are similar but discrete game terms.

To be consistent, should Group Edge be ruled applicable where Edge is refered to, then other such related terms like Critical Glitch should also be applicable where Glitch is refered to.

Yeah, but what would it cost us to give them their edge? You need only to have a tiny space right behind the condition monitor to count uses, and maybe a few more seconds in the whole fight to reroll failures or something.

Every living being has edge per the description. All grunts HAVE edge, we just cut down on that for convenience. As i said: I am not into that. Even cannonfodder is a person and has his importance in that world (and that story... which is about the PC's of course) and so he gets to have a bit luck.

But also as i said, i am not giving the "dangerlevel" as unexplained bonus dice, which is totally weird. Let the mooks have 1-2 edge. And important people and foes a comparable resavoir for edge like the PC's. Never hurt anybody... well... ok

An alternative is to split the Group Edge amongst the group, with priority given to the most senior members of the group (if any). Then just assume they all have an Edge of 1 by default, with senior members (if any) having a base Edge of 2. That way mechanics like the one mentioned in this thread will still work properly, and you can retain use of the God-awful Group Edge mechanic.

Can you give me a quote where it says "every living being has edge"? All Grunts have is Group Edge, not Edge. Cannon fodder is cannon fodder, his import in the world therefore is to die, having no Edge attribute per se contibutes towards that purpose.

The only clear difference between individual Edge and group Edge by RAW is that group Edge applies for the whole group of Grunts plus one Lieutenant, and they all spend from the same pool. Other than that there is no difference. Nowhere in the rules does it say that Grunts lack an Edge Attribute or how one is to handle Edge tests with Grunts.

Yes "individual" is not capitalized, but it says they draw from the same pool of Edge (capitalized). It also say they have less Edge available to them, which strongly implies they do in fact have Edge. whole group of Grunts plus one Lieutenant, and they all spend from the same pool. Other than that there is no difference. Nowhere in the rules does it say that Grunts lack an Edge Attribute or how one is to handle Edge tests with Grunts.

Yes "individual" is not capitalized, but it says they draw from the same pool of Edge (capitalized). It also say they have less Edge available to them, which strongly implies they they do in fact have Edge.

Apart from that I agree not everyone have Edge. Groups with professional rating 0 will never have any Edge dice and of course cannot spend Edge. They simply lack the "edge" of a professional (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Even runners burning Edge might end up with 0 Edge, thus their luck has run out.

Now if you feel you need to have unnamed NPCs completely lack the Edge attributes in what is essentially "luck tests", feel free to do so but claiming it's RAW is simply wrong. RAW does not specifically address this issue at all, it just says they share a pool of Edge. However, it is fairly common interpretation to assume that when there is an exception to a rule (group edge instead of edge), the normal rule applies except whenever specified. So group Edge works like Edge except it is shared and it has only (Edge) total uses.

Sure. in the 20th A. Book, page 281. Group Edge. Second sentence. It is stated:

"This makes it easier for the gamemaster, who doesn't have to keep track of individual expendures"

This i take as admission of: Yes they all have Edge, Yes they could use it like that. But on the rule-side to make it easier it will be handled differently.

So it is easy to just ignore the whole "Group-Edge", since it doesn't really makes that much sense. Or do you crop the shadowrunners edge together to make it easier for them? Hey, they just have to have one value instead of one per person.

I do not need to have unnamed NPCs completely lack the Edge attribute, by RAW, Grunts lack the Edge attribute. It is RAW that it is so. None of the Grunts stats have an Edge attribute, it is not that their Edge is 0, but that they do not even have Edge. Instead they have Group Edge which has its own mechanics. Group Edge shares certain similarities to Edge, but when there is an Edge test, the Grunts do not have Edge. Clearly, Edge and Group Edge are different.

I take it as an admission that it is not Edge and that Grunts do not have Edge but Group Edge is used in certain manners like it. Hence on the rules side, it is handled differently. Grunts do not have Edge and that is the difference. If the shadowrunners are Grunts, then they do not have Edge but Group Edge.

You keep claiming there are rules saying Grunts don't have Edge, but nothing to back it up with. Group Edge is different in that it is a pool of Edge. There is no other listed difference.

Not to be an Ass here, but you don't even think that NPC Grunts can actually speak, as they lack any indication of a Language Skill within the rules... And I remember whole pages of discussion on this very topic...

Your interpretation is certainly one that you can take, but it flies in the face of what is considered acceptable for a NPC or Group of Grunts...

Keep the Faith

I do not claim that the rules say that Grunts don't have Edge, the Grunts don't have Edge. None of them have an Edge attribute. If you can quote a set of Grunt stats with the Edge attribute printed, then they have Edge. You keep claiming that Grunts have Edge but none of the printed Grunts ever has an Edge attribute.

I'll Bite...

Ganger (page 147 of RC) Has an Edge Trait of 2
Gang Leader (Page 140 of RC) Has an Edge Trait of 2

In Fact EVERY example of a Normal Person has an Actual Edge Trait (In Both the Basic SR4A Book and the RC, and any other resource you would probably like to peruse)... So why, when you group the Gangers (say 2 or 3 of them) with the Gang Leader do you all of a sudden have no Edge? I will tell you... they have never lost it, they Still have Edge; They just spend it as a group to speed things up... that's why... they still have their individual Edge... any interpretation to the contrary is not accurate...

I will direct you to the Sidebar in the SR4A book, page 281 (Playing Grunts)... it states specifically that although they have been streemlined for quicker play, they STILL REMAIN INDIVIDUALS who share the streets with the PC's... if they are Individuals, they get the benefit of rolling edge just as anyone else would in that circumstance... so when a Roll calls for Edge + Something, they would take the valuse of the Group Edge and apply it to the Something for a Dice Pool...

Keep the Faith

Keep the Faith

The Ganger and Gang Leader from RC are not the same as Grunts. Those are Contacts, not Grunts. When they are Grunts, they are not Contacts. Any interpretation to the contrary is not RAW.

The side bar never states that the Grunts actually have Edge either and it deals more with tactical awareness than the Grunts as individuals having individual Edge stats.