So when it comes to edge rolls for things like covering fire or resisting the berserk forever effect of K-10, how do you handle the grunt's edge roll? They don't have edge of their own really, just a pool based on their professional rating. So would you give each grunt edge dice equal to their professional rating or divide the professional rating among the number of grunts?
I guess the K-10 effect could easily be GM hand waved but how about the dodge on covering fire?

They get the full Edge dice amount, IMO. The limiting factor is that they're sharing a pool. So if you have 4 Edge Pool and 4 grunts, and all 4 blow a point of edge on turn 1, well, sure, they all get to act cool for a turn. But then they're out. All 4 edge are gone, and they're hosed.

Bull

Ok so that brings up another point, does it cost a point of edge for that roll? From the description in suppressive fire it seems edge is just used as the other attribute in the roll. I don't know that it means it costs you a point of edge to make the roll. It seems like its just your luck seeing if you get hit or not.

I am more inclined to go with no Edge at all, unless each Grunt that the roll is applicable to uses up 1 use of that Group Edge.



Thus each Grunt rolls only Reaction unless, he spends a use of Group Edge to roll Reaction + Edge.

No Edge is being spent here. In this example, as well as a few others (such as testing to see if a genetic infusion becomes permanent), Edge is being used as a genuine attribute and one representing your overall "luck." If Edge were being spent, they'd say as much, just like they do every other time you can use Edge in the standard fashion. It would be worded more like "...must make a Reaction (+ Dodge if on full defense) Test and they may spend Edge to improve their chances."

As to how it affects grunts and the like? I honestly don't know. I hate shared dice mechanics like that so I never use them because, frankly, they don't make a damn bit of sense if you're not also treating the group as a single entity in every other way, too.

I've gone for the group edge. Note that most civilians and other groups with professional rating 0 will not have any edge score at all, and thus have no edge to throw. But that a group of Elite Tir Ghosts would have no edge dice to resist Suppressive Fire is kinda silly... and not at all RAW.

Same thing applies to Edge tests to avoid Serious Damage if you use the option from Augmentation.

I never found it problematic to just give every living being on the planet the edge it deserves. All my NPC's even Grunt-squads have edge (different and personal). They also don't have a professionalism-pool. They tend to only use it to reroll failure in defense... but depending on their motivation they may use it for attacks (Never happened yet). Also they are mooks and as such normaly only have about 1-2 edge. Humans maybe 3. Every NPC who stands out of squads and has singular motivations and a place in the campaign may have more.

Never understood the reason of giving them the professionalism rating as free dice to anything. Clashes with the game itself. I just have an easy edge-counter after their condition monitor.

Strictly speaking by RAW, Grunts do not have Edge.

Which gets us into a PC specialness and what level do people want that angle. If it makes you feel better you may preface everything that I'm about to say with the fact that it is a houserule mentally I will certianly not be offended.

I've always felt that if we have every single summoned spirit and sprite in the game have an edge statistic (and a usually pretty significant one at that) then all the "normal" humans should have one too. So at the very least I would have mooks be considered to have edge ratings equal to their PR.

No, strictly speaking they don't have individual Edge - they have group edge instead. Also, the whole point about group Edge is that you don't want 10 mooks all being able to reroll 4 times in a single combat, since the PCs have to conserve their Edge for use over multiple combats or even for the duration of a mission.

I never disputed the fact that Grunts have Group Edge. But Group Edge is not actually Edge. Thus strictly speaking I am right, they do not have Edge, they have Group Edge.

Yes but one could make the point that edge doesn't differentiate between group edge or individual edge.

I Think that you are stretching that there Toturi... Edge is Edge, whether it is Individual Edge or Group Edge... it is spent in exactly the same manner... Mooks have Group Edge... as such, any roll calling for an Edge TEST benefits the entire group...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Group Edge is a special rule that applies to Grunts, which has certain similar specifically stated applications as Edge. Grunts do not have individual Edge (note "individual" is not capitalised) nor do Grunts have an Edge attribute.

By strict reading, Edge != Group Edge and unless the rule states to roll Group Edge, substituting Group Edge for Edge is not RAW. If Grunts had "Edge = Professional Rating* or Group Edge (see Group Edge rules)" or some such notation under their stats, there might be a case by RAW for rolling Group Edge when there is an Edge Test. However, there is no Edge stat for Grunts.

Strictly speaking, Group Edge should not be applicable where the rules refer to Edge. Both are similar but discrete game terms.

To be consistent, should Group Edge be ruled applicable where Edge is refered to, then other such related terms like Critical Glitch should also be applicable where Glitch is refered to.

Yeah, but what would it cost us to give them their edge? You need only to have a tiny space right behind the condition monitor to count uses, and maybe a few more seconds in the whole fight to reroll failures or something.

Every living being has edge per the description. All grunts HAVE edge, we just cut down on that for convenience. As i said: I am not into that. Even cannonfodder is a person and has his importance in that world (and that story... which is about the PC's of course) and so he gets to have a bit luck.

But also as i said, i am not giving the "dangerlevel" as unexplained bonus dice, which is totally weird. Let the mooks have 1-2 edge. And important people and foes a comparable resavoir for edge like the PC's. Never hurt anybody... well... ok

An alternative is to split the Group Edge amongst the group, with priority given to the most senior members of the group (if any). Then just assume they all have an Edge of 1 by default, with senior members (if any) having a base Edge of 2. That way mechanics like the one mentioned in this thread will still work properly, and you can retain use of the God-awful Group Edge mechanic.

Can you give me a quote where it says "every living being has edge"? All Grunts have is Group Edge, not Edge. Cannon fodder is cannon fodder, his import in the world therefore is to die, having no Edge attribute per se contibutes towards that purpose.

The only clear difference between individual Edge and group Edge by RAW is that group Edge applies for the whole group of Grunts plus one Lieutenant, and they all spend from the same pool. Other than that there is no difference. Nowhere in the rules does it say that Grunts lack an Edge Attribute or how one is to handle Edge tests with Grunts.

Yes "individual" is not capitalized, but it says they draw from the same pool of Edge (capitalized). It also say they have less Edge available to them, which strongly implies they do in fact have Edge. whole group of Grunts plus one Lieutenant, and they all spend from the same pool. Other than that there is no difference. Nowhere in the rules does it say that Grunts lack an Edge Attribute or how one is to handle Edge tests with Grunts.

Yes "individual" is not capitalized, but it says they draw from the same pool of Edge (capitalized). It also say they have less Edge available to them, which strongly implies they they do in fact have Edge.

Apart from that I agree not everyone have Edge. Groups with professional rating 0 will never have any Edge dice and of course cannot spend Edge. They simply lack the "edge" of a professional Even runners burning Edge might end up with 0 Edge, thus their luck has run out.

Now if you feel you need to have unnamed NPCs completely lack the Edge attributes in what is essentially "luck tests", feel free to do so but claiming it's RAW is simply wrong. RAW does not specifically address this issue at all, it just says they share a pool of Edge. However, it is fairly common interpretation to assume that when there is an exception to a rule (group edge instead of edge), the normal rule applies except whenever specified. So group Edge works like Edge except it is shared and it has only (Edge) total uses.

Sure. in the 20th A. Book, page 281. Group Edge. Second sentence. It is stated:

"This makes it easier for the gamemaster, who doesn't have to keep track of individual expendures"

This i take as admission of: Yes they all have Edge, Yes they could use it like that. But on the rule-side to make it easier it will be handled differently.

So it is easy to just ignore the whole "Group-Edge", since it doesn't really makes that much sense. Or do you crop the shadowrunners edge together to make it easier for them? Hey, they just have to have one value instead of one per person.

I do not need to have unnamed NPCs completely lack the Edge attribute, by RAW, Grunts lack the Edge attribute. It is RAW that it is so. None of the Grunts stats have an Edge attribute, it is not that their Edge is 0, but that they do not even have Edge. Instead they have Group Edge which has its own mechanics. Group Edge shares certain similarities to Edge, but when there is an Edge test, the Grunts do not have Edge. Clearly, Edge and Group Edge are different.

I take it as an admission that it is not Edge and that Grunts do not have Edge but Group Edge is used in certain manners like it. Hence on the rules side, it is handled differently. Grunts do not have Edge and that is the difference. If the shadowrunners are Grunts, then they do not have Edge but Group Edge.

You keep claiming there are rules saying Grunts don't have Edge, but nothing to back it up with. Group Edge is different in that it is a pool of Edge. There is no other listed difference.

Not to be an Ass here, but you don't even think that NPC Grunts can actually speak, as they lack any indication of a Language Skill within the rules... And I remember whole pages of discussion on this very topic...

Your interpretation is certainly one that you can take, but it flies in the face of what is considered acceptable for a NPC or Group of Grunts...

Keep the Faith

I do not claim that the rules say that Grunts don't have Edge, the Grunts don't have Edge. None of them have an Edge attribute. If you can quote a set of Grunt stats with the Edge attribute printed, then they have Edge. You keep claiming that Grunts have Edge but none of the printed Grunts ever has an Edge attribute.

I'll Bite...

Ganger (page 147 of RC) Has an Edge Trait of 2
Gang Leader (Page 140 of RC) Has an Edge Trait of 2

In Fact EVERY example of a Normal Person has an Actual Edge Trait (In Both the Basic SR4A Book and the RC, and any other resource you would probably like to peruse)... So why, when you group the Gangers (say 2 or 3 of them) with the Gang Leader do you all of a sudden have no Edge? I will tell you... they have never lost it, they Still have Edge; They just spend it as a group to speed things up... that's why... they still have their individual Edge... any interpretation to the contrary is not accurate...

I will direct you to the Sidebar in the SR4A book, page 281 (Playing Grunts)... it states specifically that although they have been streemlined for quicker play, they STILL REMAIN INDIVIDUALS who share the streets with the PC's... if they are Individuals, they get the benefit of rolling edge just as anyone else would in that circumstance... so when a Roll calls for Edge + Something, they would take the valuse of the Group Edge and apply it to the Something for a Dice Pool...

Keep the Faith

Keep the Faith

The Ganger and Gang Leader from RC are not the same as Grunts. Those are Contacts, not Grunts. When they are Grunts, they are not Contacts. Any interpretation to the contrary is not RAW.

The side bar never states that the Grunts actually have Edge either and it deals more with tactical awareness than the Grunts as individuals having individual Edge stats.

Odd... you would take them as individuals in one case, but start a gang war and they are no longer individuals?

You may call them contacts... I call them everyday people that you run into... and the sidebar on Playing Grunts says that they are people just like the PC's... So, are you going to make the PC's have a Group Edge when the fighting starts? That is what you are doing with the people that the PC's run into...

For my case, No Thanks...

Keep the Faith

So you admit the rules do not specify that they don't have Edge or cannot make Edge tests. Of course there is no need to list an Edge attribute on the grunts stats as their professional rating is listed and counts as their edge. Anyway, this argument is starting to get pointless. You have your own interpretation of the rules and nothing we say are gonna change that. Until an errata or FAQ specifies otherwise, we'll have to decide for ourselves.

Why argue with him? He doesn't care about common sense, rational thought, or game balance. It's completely pointless to try and get anything sensible said or done in a "discussion" with him. Case in point: The kid tried arguing that you could poison a rock until he (finally) found a rule that said otherwise.

Grunt stats list their Professional Rating and their Group Edge is the same as their Professional Rating. Their Professional Rating counts as their Group Edge.

No, PCs are not Grunts. The sidebar says they are people, with certain individual characteristics shared by PCs. If I take the Ganger and Gang Leader as Contacts, they stay as Contacts (even if they end up going against the PCs), they are never Grunts. Even in a gang war, they are not Grunts.

I will just say this and then be done with it... Notice that last word you used in your post above?


Yep, You got it... EDGE...


Keep the Faith

No, the term is Group Edge. Not Edge. Grunts have "Group Edge".

But they are people... just as the sidebar about Grunts says that they are ...If you take your contacts (The Leader and his 15 Flunkies, who are all listed as contacts on your sheet) in the Red Dragon Triad... and use them for a combat scenario, most, if not all, GM's will use the rules for Grunts... to do otherwise drags out the fight to crazy lengths...

But hey, to each his own I guess... Just Remember the time honored speech of the average Grunt in your game to see how ridiculous that stance is... "Oook, Oook"

Keep the Faith

Which is STILL EDGE, just shared by the Group to speed up play...

Keep the Faith

Which is not Edge. Group Edge just function in certain manners like Edge but it is Group Edge and not Edge.

They are people who are Grunts. If you had statted all 15 of those Flunkies to be Contacts, then serves you right to try to do so. Me? Gang Leader is Contact. Maybe that guy over there is a Contact. The rest are Grunts.

Ridiculous it may be, but it does not mean that it is not RAW. If "Oook, Oook" is the result of RAW, then so be it. GMs can house rule it or the developers can errata it if it is their wish.

Soooo...just go with what ever I want for that little question? Use professional rating as edge for attribute plus edge tests. Right. Thanks.

I'm inclined to go with the interpretation that the grunt rolls Stat + Professional rating, and this doesn't consist of a use of Edge (that is, it doesn't deplete the group pool). Players don't spend Edge when they get put under suppressive fire, IMO... and if they're supposed to, I've got a couple of PC's that're about to start catching a lot more suppressive fire

That's how you should usually go, yes.


That certainly works. My only concern is that since it is a "grunt" and they're intended to be made quick work of, that using the full Professional Rating may be too high. But, since Edge is only used in a blue moon as an actual attribute, it's not really a big deal. It just makes suppressive fire a little less useful if the grunts can survive it easier. But if they still react to it properly, and immediately seek cover because of it, yeah... not a big deal at all.

When is the professional rating too high? Special Forces? Red Samurai? Tir Ghosts? These "Grunts" are the ones likely to survive Suppressive Fire on a regular basis, which is fine by me as it is their job. This rating also indicate how willing they are to fight to the bitter end, brave Suppressive Fire for a short amount of time (think Composure), or take on Spirits and metacritters head on. These are the guys the PCs should have great difficulty handling.

If opposition is intended to be a worthy obstacle, it's my firm opinion that you shouldn't be using such cheap gimmicks with them. At least not unless you want to reintroduce Group Edge (aka, Group Karma Pool) to the players, too, to reflect their ability to use teamwork. If a mechanic is good enough for NPCs, it should be good enough for the PCs, too. And that applies both ways.

But no, I was specifically talking about the kind of mooks and nobodies that the runners mow down in order to get to the real action of a story. In those cases, being more resilient to suppressive fire -- and only suppressive fire -- is kind of silly, especially since the intent and purpose of suppressive fire is to keep people down rather than to kill. It doesn't really make a big difference, but if a group of NPCs who's only function in the story is to die or be a minor thorn in the players side is ignoring suppressive fire because they stand a decent shot of ignoring the damage, then the entire exercise is a major fail. Again, in my opinion.

What I'm essentially saying is that even if it's not going to make a big difference, and thus the argument is "it doesn't really matter so I'm going to do it anyway," then it's simply bad form.

I am Sorry, But "OOok OOok" is a result of a narrow interpretation of the rules... as is your interpretation of Edge and Group Edge...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Huh? Are you sure you got the whole point about Group Edge? It is to be used for groups of similar NPCs, and has the advantage of being less a hassle to keep track of as a GM, and even more importantly makes it so that these NPCs only likely to encounter the Team once, will not be able to spend Edge on every action and reaction they make.

The PCs on the other hand may spend as much Edge as they have, but at the risk of having nothing left for other encounters.

Some of these are incompetent mooks and nobodies, some have very limited combat training. This is represented by having a very low professional rating. Some however are meant to be tougher and more professional, and thus better able to dodge or be more lucky. Or simply harder to kill. Even though every member in special force team 7 might not have a written down name, backstory or 3 pagers character sheet doesn't mean those members can't be a serious threat to the runner Team. It's not their function to "die", but to be a threat that the runner Team hopefully will not have to fight with.

Also keep in mind these Grunts will not be more likely to evade SF than the PCs with high Edge. They will just have the same chance as everyone else.

As for Suppressive Fire itself, even if the intention is to keep enemies down that's not really what it does. It just makes people risk damage. And since Shadowrunners generally have higher shooting dice pool than anyone has Reaction+Edge, there will still be a definite risk. Now what the SF actually lacks is a system of forcing characters (PCs or NPCs) to actually stay down. It is suggested elsewhere that taking fire might force people to take Composure tests but this isn't really a part of the SF mechinics itself. In the end it's up the GM if he wants his Grunts to run blindly into SF taking or evading damage. And it will happen, Edge or no Edge.

Oh and BTW Suppressive Fire is the only good way to attack a bunch of people with automatic fire. Other than that the best you can do is Full auto with 3 short bursts, but the recoil and penalty for swapping targets will probably not be worth it. And even so that's maximum 3 people.

I am sorry but RAW is RAW, it is as it is written. Grunts, as written, do not have the Edge attribute printed, they have a Professional Rating stat and the rules that call for the Edge test do not ask for Professional Rating and Professional Rating and Group Edge have their own defined rules, which do not include substituting for Edge in such rolls. When I interpret the rules, I stick to as close as the rules as they are written as possible, if you wish to extrapolate and infer something that is not explicitly written, you are free to do so, but it simply deviates from the rules as they are written.

It is not as if RAW in this case is ambiguous, that the rules as written can be interpreted in a certain number of ways. Grunts do not have printed Edge, the test is an Edge test. You can extrapolate from Professional Rating and Group Edge and other sources to imply that Grunts do indeed have the Edge stat and thus can use their Professional Rating to do so but as printed, Grunts do not have Edge.

Thus as I have stated before unless you can quote a statted Grunt (not a Contact, a Prime Runner or any other NPC) with the Edge attribute, or have a rule quote that is explicit in saying that every Grunt has the Edge attribute and not just Group Edge, strictly speaking by RAW, Grunts do not have Edge.

You are right... They have Group Edge... which is enough for me...
I know you do not agree, and that is okay...

Keep the Faith