Odd... you would take them as individuals in one case, but start a gang war and they are no longer individuals?

You may call them contacts... I call them everyday people that you run into... and the sidebar on Playing Grunts says that they are people just like the PC's... So, are you going to make the PC's have a Group Edge when the fighting starts? That is what you are doing with the people that the PC's run into...

For my case, No Thanks...

Keep the Faith

So you admit the rules do not specify that they don't have Edge or cannot make Edge tests. Of course there is no need to list an Edge attribute on the grunts stats as their professional rating is listed and counts as their edge. Anyway, this argument is starting to get pointless. You have your own interpretation of the rules and nothing we say are gonna change that. Until an errata or FAQ specifies otherwise, we'll have to decide for ourselves.

Why argue with him? He doesn't care about common sense, rational thought, or game balance. It's completely pointless to try and get anything sensible said or done in a "discussion" with him. Case in point: The kid tried arguing that you could poison a rock until he (finally) found a rule that said otherwise.

Grunt stats list their Professional Rating and their Group Edge is the same as their Professional Rating. Their Professional Rating counts as their Group Edge.

No, PCs are not Grunts. The sidebar says they are people, with certain individual characteristics shared by PCs. If I take the Ganger and Gang Leader as Contacts, they stay as Contacts (even if they end up going against the PCs), they are never Grunts. Even in a gang war, they are not Grunts.

I will just say this and then be done with it... Notice that last word you used in your post above?


Yep, You got it... EDGE...


Keep the Faith

No, the term is Group Edge. Not Edge. Grunts have "Group Edge".

But they are people... just as the sidebar about Grunts says that they are ...If you take your contacts (The Leader and his 15 Flunkies, who are all listed as contacts on your sheet) in the Red Dragon Triad... and use them for a combat scenario, most, if not all, GM's will use the rules for Grunts... to do otherwise drags out the fight to crazy lengths...

But hey, to each his own I guess... Just Remember the time honored speech of the average Grunt in your game to see how ridiculous that stance is... "Oook, Oook"

Keep the Faith

Which is STILL EDGE, just shared by the Group to speed up play...

Keep the Faith

Which is not Edge. Group Edge just function in certain manners like Edge but it is Group Edge and not Edge.

They are people who are Grunts. If you had statted all 15 of those Flunkies to be Contacts, then serves you right to try to do so. Me? Gang Leader is Contact. Maybe that guy over there is a Contact. The rest are Grunts.

Ridiculous it may be, but it does not mean that it is not RAW. If "Oook, Oook" is the result of RAW, then so be it. GMs can house rule it or the developers can errata it if it is their wish.

Soooo...just go with what ever I want for that little question? Use professional rating as edge for attribute plus edge tests. Right. Thanks.

I'm inclined to go with the interpretation that the grunt rolls Stat + Professional rating, and this doesn't consist of a use of Edge (that is, it doesn't deplete the group pool). Players don't spend Edge when they get put under suppressive fire, IMO... and if they're supposed to, I've got a couple of PC's that're about to start catching a lot more suppressive fire (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's how you should usually go, yes.


That certainly works. My only concern is that since it is a "grunt" and they're intended to be made quick work of, that using the full Professional Rating may be too high. But, since Edge is only used in a blue moon as an actual attribute, it's not really a big deal. It just makes suppressive fire a little less useful if the grunts can survive it easier. But if they still react to it properly, and immediately seek cover because of it, yeah... not a big deal at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

When is the professional rating too high? Special Forces? Red Samurai? Tir Ghosts? These "Grunts" are the ones likely to survive Suppressive Fire on a regular basis, which is fine by me as it is their job. This rating also indicate how willing they are to fight to the bitter end, brave Suppressive Fire for a short amount of time (think Composure), or take on Spirits and metacritters head on. These are the guys the PCs should have great difficulty handling.

If opposition is intended to be a worthy obstacle, it's my firm opinion that you shouldn't be using such cheap gimmicks with them. At least not unless you want to reintroduce Group Edge (aka, Group Karma Pool) to the players, too, to reflect their ability to use teamwork. If a mechanic is good enough for NPCs, it should be good enough for the PCs, too. And that applies both ways.

But no, I was specifically talking about the kind of mooks and nobodies that the runners mow down in order to get to the real action of a story. In those cases, being more resilient to suppressive fire -- and only suppressive fire -- is kind of silly, especially since the intent and purpose of suppressive fire is to keep people down rather than to kill. It doesn't really make a big difference, but if a group of NPCs who's only function in the story is to die or be a minor thorn in the players side is ignoring suppressive fire because they stand a decent shot of ignoring the damage, then the entire exercise is a major fail. Again, in my opinion.

What I'm essentially saying is that even if it's not going to make a big difference, and thus the argument is "it doesn't really matter so I'm going to do it anyway," then it's simply bad form.

I am Sorry, But "OOok OOok" is a result of a narrow interpretation of the rules... as is your interpretation of Edge and Group Edge...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Huh? Are you sure you got the whole point about Group Edge? It is to be used for groups of similar NPCs, and has the advantage of being less a hassle to keep track of as a GM, and even more importantly makes it so that these NPCs only likely to encounter the Team once, will not be able to spend Edge on every action and reaction they make.

The PCs on the other hand may spend as much Edge as they have, but at the risk of having nothing left for other encounters.

Some of these are incompetent mooks and nobodies, some have very limited combat training. This is represented by having a very low professional rating. Some however are meant to be tougher and more professional, and thus better able to dodge or be more lucky. Or simply harder to kill. Even though every member in special force team 7 might not have a written down name, backstory or 3 pagers character sheet doesn't mean those members can't be a serious threat to the runner Team. It's not their function to "die", but to be a threat that the runner Team hopefully will not have to fight with.

Also keep in mind these Grunts will not be more likely to evade SF than the PCs with high Edge. They will just have the same chance as everyone else.

As for Suppressive Fire itself, even if the intention is to keep enemies down that's not really what it does. It just makes people risk damage. And since Shadowrunners generally have higher shooting dice pool than anyone has Reaction+Edge, there will still be a definite risk. Now what the SF actually lacks is a system of forcing characters (PCs or NPCs) to actually stay down. It is suggested elsewhere that taking fire might force people to take Composure tests but this isn't really a part of the SF mechinics itself. In the end it's up the GM if he wants his Grunts to run blindly into SF taking or evading damage. And it will happen, Edge or no Edge.

Oh and BTW Suppressive Fire is the only good way to attack a bunch of people with automatic fire. Other than that the best you can do is Full auto with 3 short bursts, but the recoil and penalty for swapping targets will probably not be worth it. And even so that's maximum 3 people.

I am sorry but RAW is RAW, it is as it is written. Grunts, as written, do not have the Edge attribute printed, they have a Professional Rating stat and the rules that call for the Edge test do not ask for Professional Rating and Professional Rating and Group Edge have their own defined rules, which do not include substituting for Edge in such rolls. When I interpret the rules, I stick to as close as the rules as they are written as possible, if you wish to extrapolate and infer something that is not explicitly written, you are free to do so, but it simply deviates from the rules as they are written.

It is not as if RAW in this case is ambiguous, that the rules as written can be interpreted in a certain number of ways. Grunts do not have printed Edge, the test is an Edge test. You can extrapolate from Professional Rating and Group Edge and other sources to imply that Grunts do indeed have the Edge stat and thus can use their Professional Rating to do so but as printed, Grunts do not have Edge.

Thus as I have stated before unless you can quote a statted Grunt (not a Contact, a Prime Runner or any other NPC) with the Edge attribute, or have a rule quote that is explicit in saying that every Grunt has the Edge attribute and not just Group Edge, strictly speaking by RAW, Grunts do not have Edge.

You are right... They have Group Edge... which is enough for me...
I know you do not agree, and that is okay...

Keep the Faith