Except for the very simple fact that Police are issued Tazers for such circumstances... it is a real bitch if you have to yank your SnS loaded Pistol and then change out ammunition for the times when you need (or might need) lethal force... Police and Security Forces are not well known for putting an opponent down and then slitting their throats after all... when they need to employ lethal force, they need it immediately, which is why their service pistols are loaded with "Lethal" ammunition... the Tazer is used for those occasions which are "Non-Lethal"

Keep the Faith

…and the messenger & leader of the drug cartel?
…and the brutal, people torturing Stand Over Man?

Just check what those squads are there to do. Hint: Crooked cops shot dead while resisting arrest are so much easier to deal with.

…if they are not just out to kill anyone – and they do, see the security guards and bodyguards.

It still doesn't, sorry.

…as their primary ammo of choice? Wow… quite an admission.

And the ad hominem continues. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Choice is such a tricky word if the only thing you are issued are irradiated rounds made from nuclear waste.

No, it means the SnS rules do not fit the background. Were SnS Rounds only useable in Shotguns (my favorite houserule) they fare less well in comparison with the basedamage being below regular damage. This would result in SnS be usefull only in special situations and therefore fits the background

Tasers have a rather short rangeactually with SnS more effective than Lethal ammo there is no need to use lethal except in executionsSo you argue Police dont use SnS so their Staff can accidently shoot someone?
There is no need for lethal force when lethal is less likely to take out an opponent.

I give up. You ignore whats right in front of you, you continually shift the goalposts, you don't even understand the logical fallacies you cite and you are woefully ignorant on anything military.

There is simply no point in arguing with you. You just want to be right, no matter the facts against you. Go ahead, wage your S&S crusade and see where it gets you. You failed to provide even a SINGLE valid argument so far.

Absolutely plausible in Shadowrun.

"Usually the boogeyman lives in the mirror." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Curious… this whole thread started with "S&S isn't broken", went to "S&S is broken, but it doesn't matter since no-one is using it as primary ammo." and finally, we are at "S&S is broken, but it's not that bad since only some people are using it as primary ammo."
It's not that a big step to "If S&S was as good as RAW says, every professional not out for massacre would use it as primary ammo – because there's no reason not to." – get over it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That fact was established when the first player decided his char should use S&S as his primary ammo. Its a fact that is worthless. If you want to celebrate that as a victory, have at it, hoss!

Nah… just take that final little step. It not that hard, really.

No. The reason for them choosing it is what makes them a powergamer, not the actual act. This concept -- like many others -- clearly flies over your head, so it's no surprise at all that you just can't grasp it. But that doesn't change the facts one iota.

As pointed out multiple times by multiple people, the reason would be a sane in-character choice – without any draw-backs or combinations. Unlike the murder-cycle straw-man you are so fond of.

Facts would be based on stats and hard reference. Or NPCs using S&S as primary ammo. Both have been provided.
Not your strange opinion on what constitutes "powergaming".

That you think your response is 1) even remotely accurate or 2) a valid counter to what I've said just drives my point home all the more.

Weren't you the one who brought up the Stormwind fallacy? Doesn't this example fit that fallacy perfectly? Just because a player chooses to optimize his character by buying SnS rounds instead of normal ammunition doesn't mean that he can't have perfectly good role-playing reasons for the choice.

…my expression that I'm not going to dignify your petty tries of attacks with anything resembling effort. Shoo-Shoo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Only if your point is that you aren't even able to separate opinion from fact.

Nah, absolutely not… because, you see, he's not actually saying that people that choose based on stats can't role-play.
He's just calling them names, while ranting about how they don't respect "the intent of the game world" and "abuse the rules". Simply for having the audacity to use a piece of gear.
That's totally not calling them bad roleplayers.

No... My argument there Bluedragon7, is that police already have a non-lethal option in their possession (The Tazer), and they are effective at the ranges that the vast majority of confrontations actually take place... that range is 7 meters or less... Now, since they already have that non-lethal option covered, and it does not tend to escalate violence like a drawn pistol does, then they would opt for the Tazer in those circumstances, and would use normal rounds in their sidearms for their non-lethal options...

They would do this because the SnS rounds, though effective in some circumstances, are not so good in others, and Physical Trauma means a lot more for those circumstances than non-lethal force and shorted synapsis do...

That is the main reason why in real life, even if we had the technology for SnS rounds, they would still use regular rounds in their sidearms and rely upon their tazer for their more lethal options...

Keep the Faith

Some valid reasons for choosing Stick-n-Shock Rounds:

• You're a pacifist who doesn't believe in killing, but you still need to be able to take opponents down due to secondary benefits of the chosen weapon (Concealability, range, ammo capacity, etc.).
• As a backup clip for those times you do need to take someone down without killing them but don't want to carry a second weapon (such as a taser). Otherwise you should be using a taser which is specifically designed for that function and not specialty ammo in a lethal firearm.

Some invalid reasons for choosing Stick-n-Shock Rounds:

• OMFG dey haz best stats EVAR u dum 4 not usin dem ALL DA TIME!!! OMG OMG OMG!
• Evry1 usez dem!!! c, I find 1 or 2 xsamples dat proof it!!!
• Taser stats SUX BALLZ OMFG!!!
• I chang stats on dem cuz dey overpowa and dis iz y, cuz EVRY1 IZ USIN DEM OMFG AND U DUM 4 NOT!!!!!!!!!!

And yes, that's exactly what I read every time I see one of those asinine arguments. Yet again -- for the umpteenth millionth time -- it's perfectly fine to feel that SnS Rounds, Tasers, or anything else in the game is broken and want to fix it. It's something else entirely to only choose specific items solely for their broken stats and then call anyone who doesn't an idiot. Then, like a moron, start spouting out bullshit like the Stormwind Fallacy in a feeble attempt to justify that stupidity.

In which circumstances are SnS rounds less effective in than normal ammunition? The only one I can think of is when fighting drones and even then SnS does something. I also wonder when lethal force specifically would be neccessary. I can understand a cop wanting to protect his own life over a criminal's but when the non-lethal option is in fact better at taking the criminal down than the lethal option then why have the lethal option at all? For circumstances in which a cop would be firing upon a target with the intent to knock them unconscious then SnS rounds are far superior to normal rounds, at least in a pistol. I am hard-pressed to find a situation in which a cop would specifically be trying to kill a target rather than just knock them out for an hour.

@ Funk: Since when are you a mindreader? How can you know what the intent of an individual was when they chose a specific type of ammunition? And I still disagree with you that even if you know the intention of the player was to create the most powerful character they could that that isn't role-playing. Shadowrun is a game of survival of the fittest, wanting to have the best equipment, the best ammunition, the best team isn't powergaming, it's being realistic. The military, the corps, the terrorists and the cults of shadowrun will all being using the best equipment they can get their hands on so who are you to say that the players can't?

However, the fact being that since not everyone chooses to use SnS, as you claim, makes them what? Stupid? Non-Professional? In my opinion, it makes them discerning...

Guns were created for one thing and one thing only... to kill...
If you have resorted to drawing a gun, you have already made that choice that you are going to kill something, or at least die trying...

Just because there is an alternative non-lethal round, that is designed for weapons intended to kill, does not mean that everyone is going to choose that ammunition... in fact, since there is another weapon that already fills that role pretty damn well (The various tazers, both ranged and melee), this indicates that the SnS rounds are truly a niche round, and would not be chosen over more favorable uses of other ammunition, because, as I said already, you use a gun to kill, not to wound...

Prettty simple really, and the fact you don't grasp that just amazes me, and in the end is really quite amusing...

Keep the Faith

Please inform me of a situation in which a cop would want to kill a target and not knock him unconscious.

So, now it is you, who declared himself RPG Police and has to teach me what I do wrong in my game?! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Are you cool with telling other people what they should or should not do, because it is invalid in your opinion!? Great Attitude towards the freedom of opinion...

But just for you, again(!):

If my character uses SnS, because it is the best ammo he can get, it is a fucking roleplay decision, because he has experienced, that SnS is better than all the other ammos he can get. He is willing and able to pay for it. So in his opinion he would be a fucking fool, if he chooses an other ammo type!
So he uses SnS because of his ingame motivation, experience and knowledge, not because I as a player have seen the stats! And as long as SnS is the best ammo for nearly all situations he will continue doing so, because he is right!

Your hole argument really pisses me off: "Yeah, SnS is overpowered, but it isn't a problem! Nobody uses SnS, because nobody uses SnS! And if someone does, he is a fucking PG!!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Solving this problem, if you able to percive it, requires to houserule SnS, but I guess you allready choose the fanatic's path to call everybody a powergamer, because your are right and all the others are obviously wrong, because they try to fix a problem, that you have ruled out of existence by your definition.

cya
Tycho

Not talking about unconsciousness, but I can tell you a few situations where a Cop would want to use anything BUT S&S:

-A hostage situation at gunpoint.
-A target holding a detonator, with the thumb over the button.
-A target driving a car.
-A target aiming a gun at the cop.

In all these cases, a gun with gel-ammo would be superior over a gun with S&S.

Hey, another shocker: You can't even get it. Please point out a single instance where I ever said tnat SnS was fine and dandy as is. You won't. Because not only have I never said such a thing, but it's also a completely unrelated issue. Just for you the actual points are: 1) SnS is a specialty ammo that should only be used for specific reasons, just like tasers. 2) SnS ammo is, in fact, very much broken compared to other ammo types, but that doesn't justify point #1. 3) People, both players and NPCs alike, still choose other ammo types despite how broken SnS ammo is, and that is perfectly okay. And finally 4) people who say that everyone should be using SnS ammo 24/7 in all cases are powergaming twits who are only saying that because of the broken stats, not because it should be the case in-game.

How about you people try to read what's actually being written as opposed to what you so desperately, insistently, and utterly delusionaly think is being written? You are the ones seeing shit that isn't there. "OMG, he says people shouldn't be using SnS ammo 24/7?!? CLEARLY HE THINKS SNS IS FINE AND PERFECTLY BALANCED!!! And he also thinks that it's completely inline with all other ammo types and not the best based purely on their stats! OMFG!!! WHAT AN IDIOT HE IS!!!! STORMWIND FALLACY, MAN!!!!!!!!!! I R ROLLPLAYAR NOT MUNCKIN!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAIIIIYEEEEEEEEE!!!!!! <head fucking explodes>"

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

No, definitely not unless you are talking about highpowered Rifles. Gel makes much less damage, especially against heavy Armor