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> Dualwielding SMGs and firing 1 long burst each, With no recoil and no split pool?
Medicineman
post Apr 25 2010, 09:09 PM
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Smartlink Bonus can be added if you're switching Weapons
and because you're using only one Long Burst per Weapon thats perfectly legal (as long as the SMGs have FA )

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Tyro
post Apr 25 2010, 10:00 PM
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QUOTE (Medicineman @ Apr 25 2010, 01:09 PM) *
Smartlink Bonus can be added if you're switching Weapons
and because you're using only one Long Burst per Weapon thats perfectly legal (as long as the SMGs have FA )

he who dances with two Feet
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I'm curious - how did you get started with your signature siggy? (pun intended)
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Doc Byte
post Apr 25 2010, 11:58 PM
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QUOTE (Nal0n @ Apr 25 2010, 10:51 PM) *
As I read the rules so far normal guns just can't fire fast enough so you simply don't have enough time to fire 2 long bursts one after the other in one action phase, that's where you need HV weapons which have a much higher cadence...


The funny thing's that the cadence of SR guns depends on the shooter. If you have 1 IP, full-auto spits out 10 bullets. A wired-up streetsam with 4 IPs magically boosts his gun up to 40 rounds per combat turn. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)
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FriendoftheDork
post Apr 26 2010, 12:01 AM
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QUOTE (Doc Byte @ Apr 26 2010, 12:58 AM) *
The funny thing's that the cadence of SR guns depends on the shooter. If you have 1 IP, full-auto spits out 10 bullets. A wired-up streetsam with 4 IPs magically boosts his gun up to 40 rounds per combat turn. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)


The guy with 4 ips can accurately fire more bursts. I'd allow one IP goons to empty their weapons in 1 pass but for little effect.
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Falconer
post Apr 26 2010, 12:06 AM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 25 2010, 04:27 PM) *
No. Recoil from one weapon does not affect another, unless both weapons are fired with the same action.

In that instance, uncompensated recoil from one weapon (still weapon specific) is also applied as a penalty to the other.


Wow Muspy...

p152
"Weapons that fire more than one round..."
"Burst fire weapons recieve a -2 recoil modifier for the first burst fired IN THAT ACTION PHASE and a -3 for the second...."

Not "A weapon".... weapons.

That to me pretty clearly implies all weapons across a pass.

The chart on the right doesn't say (first burst per weapon), it only says first burst, second burst.


Besides even you have to admit it's a huge advantage being able to double up on recoil comp and magazine size by having 2 guns instead of one. As well as having the option to use a single simple to fire both at once. I always felt kinda bat for HVAR weapons as getting 11 points of RC on a single gun w/o a gyro is probably not gonna happen.
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 26 2010, 12:10 AM
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Double up on the recoil compensation? What are you talking about man?

Each weapon has its own recoil and its own recoil compensation. Uncompensated recoil of one weapon affects the other. Uncompensated. They don't generate extra recoil in and of themselves. The left gun still only generates -2 on the first simple action and -3 on the third, and so does the right one. If they don't have any recoil compensation, then you have a -4 and a -6 penalty, yes, but they don't generate a combination of -4 and -6 of recoil that both have to soak up independently (meaning 12! points of recoil compensation total). That's just plain incorrect.

Even as a house rule, that's harsh. Using two weapons is already crippling enough. They don't need any extra help at sucking compared to using a single one.
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HappyDaze
post Apr 26 2010, 12:20 AM
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QUOTE
Wow Muspy...

p152
"Weapons that fire more than one round..."
"Burst fire weapons recieve a -2 recoil modifier for the first burst fired IN THAT ACTION PHASE and a -3 for the second...."

Not "A weapon".... weapons.

That to me pretty clearly implies all weapons across a pass.


Using that logic, my best defense is to go first in a pass and spray rounds with maximum uncompensated recoil. This will ensure that any weapons fired after mine have lots of recoil to shoot through! Also, if I fire a long burst first, no one else can do so for that action phase! That's the RAW! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Falconer
post Apr 26 2010, 12:25 AM
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Funk... instead of just posting and inserting your foot into your mouth... try thinking through what I said and actually applying some reading comprehension.

I'll spell it out... with two guns... you get *TWO* gas vent 3's, *TWO* personalized grips, *TWO* whatever elses... You've doubled up on the recoil comp options. Getting to 5or6 RC isn't all that tough. Getting past that point gets very rough.

Exactly how are you going to get the HVAR SMG up to 11 points of RC? You run out of mods and accessories right quick. And same size mag firing faster means lasts shorter... compared to having 2 full mags.


And if you can't understand basic grammar and sentence structure, I can't help you.


How is it sucking to have doubled up the amount of easily available recoil comp... fire one burst from your right, then another from your second for only a mere -2 ambi penalty... (especially if you're using laser sights rather than smartlink so you don't have to worry about using the free action to switch which gun you use).

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Falconer
post Apr 26 2010, 12:31 AM
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QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Apr 25 2010, 07:20 PM) *
Using that logic, my best defense is to go first in a pass and spray rounds with maximum uncompensated recoil. This will ensure that any weapons fired after mine have lots of recoil to shoot through! Also, if I fire a long burst first, no one else can do so for that action phase! That's the RAW! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


Incorrect, I even highlighted it... "ACTION PHASE".

P65. "The point in time during each combat turn when a specific character can act is called an action phase"
"Each phase, a character can take one Complex Action OR two Simple Actions".... one free action during each PASS. (IE: the free action can but does not have to occur in their action phase).

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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 26 2010, 01:00 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 25 2010, 07:25 PM) *
Funk... instead of just posting and inserting your foot into your mouth... try thinking through what I said and actually applying some reading comprehension.

I did. Let's have another look at your quoted reference.
    "Burst-fire weapons receive a –2 recoil modifier for the first burst fired in that Action Phase and –3 for the second."
By your logic, ALL you receive when firing burst-fire weapons is a -2 recoil modifier. You can be firing 100 different weapons and still only get that -2 recoil. Afterall, it says "weapons," right? Wrong. Your problem is that you don't seem to get that their use of the phrase "burst-fire weapons" is just that; a discussion of all burst-fire weapons. Be it SMGs, Assault Rifles, Machine Pistols, or whatever else.

The rules, by default, assume you're only firing one of these weapons at a time. Hence the continuation of that same thought -- as expressed in a single sentence -- where they describe the -2 and -3 recoil penalties. Again, if the sentence worked the way you seem to want it to work, then you can get those Shiva Arms multiple times, load up on 4, 6, 8, or more weapons, and fire them like mad in burst-fire mode, suffering only a total of -2 recoil with the first Simple Action and -3 on the second. Which is not only wrong, but obviously stupid.

The rules for using a second firearm continue on from that base logic, stating that any uncompensated recoil is shared between weapons, not that they generate additional recoil on top of their normal recoil per gun.

Your interpretation is just wrong on every conceivable level.

QUOTE
And if you can't understand basic grammar and sentence structure, I can't help you.

<coughs>
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 26 2010, 01:23 AM
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Ugh, always with the 'ur dumb; no UR dumb!' crap.

It seems very powerful that you can use a second weapon to, yes, essentially benefit from 'extra' RC, but you're buying/carrying two guns, using up your other hand, probably can't use the foregrip, etc.; whatever. It's less clear that you can have two long bursts in the same AP, but, again, that's probably fine, too. NPCs can do it, too.

If this combo is imbalancing in your game, house-rule it. Make Ambidextrous cost more, disallow 'two long bursts per AP' regardless of weapons (except HV), or come up with something else.
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 26 2010, 01:26 AM
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You're also ignoring the fact that you have to split the base dice pool in half. That's the thing that really hurts. Even if you have Agility 9 and Automatics 9, your base dice pool is only 9, not 20 (the +2 from a smartgun included) like it is for the guy firing just one weapon. Recoil compensation doesn't even give you bonus dice, it just cuts back on the penalties. Which dual-wielders don't need any more of.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 26 2010, 01:28 AM
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I thought the whole point was that you don't have to split unless they're fired in the same action?

Unrelated note: the off-hand penalty is only -2, so if you're relying on Ambidexterity to limit this action, that probably needs to be a higher penalty as well. Again, if you're house-ruling a 'fix'.
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Karoline
post Apr 26 2010, 01:29 AM
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I think the main point Falconer is trying to make is that by using two SMGs with lots of recoil comp, over the course of one pass, you get 12(ish) points of recoil being compensated (6 from one gun, and 6 from the other). In theory, if you fired a single gun twice, you would get no penalties, and then your RC would run out and you'd be at -6, but by using two guns, you start dipping into a new pool of RC, and so your second gun gets no penalties.

Now, I'll be honest, from a real world standpoint this makes alot of sense. If you have two guns, both of which are so well weighted/balanced/vented/etc that they can put out 6 rounds without jiggling your arm, then firing 6 shots from each of them should continue to not jiggle your arm. But from a rules standpoint, the devs have gone to alot of trouble with arsenal to limit how much RC someone can get on a gun, and so it seems unlikely that they intend you to be able to (virtually) double your RC by using two guns in the way described in the OP.

As to firing two long bursts... Well, it says
QUOTE
Note that single-shot
weapons may be fi red only once per Action Phase. Likewise,
only one long burst may be fi red in each Action Phase.


See how it points out that the single shot weapon itself may be fired once per turn, but one long burst (no exception, no mention of per weapon) may be fired per turn. I'd have to agree with the idea that a long burst simply take 2/3rds of a turn to perform, and so you can't get two of them in one after the other as there isn't enough 'time' (time dilation via extra IP not withstanding).

Personally, despite the fact that it'd likely actually work out very well IRL, I'd slap the recoil penalty on the person using two SMGs with the recoil from one weapon carrying over to the other, and the RC from the second weapon not helping.
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Karoline
post Apr 26 2010, 01:31 AM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 25 2010, 08:26 PM) *
You're also ignoring the fact that you have to split the base dice pool in half. That's the thing that really hurts. Even if you have Agility 9 and Automatics 9, your base dice pool is only 9, not 20 (the +2 from a smartgun included) like it is for the guy firing just one weapon. Recoil compensation doesn't even give you bonus dice, it just cuts back on the penalties. Which dual-wielders don't need any more of.


No, you only have to split your pool if you fire the two weapons as part of the same action. By firing one then the other, you get your full DP on both shots, just like if you had fired the same gun twice back to back.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 26 2010, 01:32 AM
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Okay, but I don't see how that's related. You can, as was said, fire two different SS guns in one Phase.
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Falconer
post Apr 26 2010, 01:32 AM
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All I can say is you're on crack... AND ATTRIBUTING THINGS TO ME I NEVER SAID, WHICH IS WHY I"M TAKING YOU TO TASK... and have abzolutely zero idea how you're coming up with assertion. Furthermore, you've done this repeatedly in the past.

First short burst is -2, second is -3. I don't care how many weapons you have... That's what I was stating, and you keep insisting on saying the EXACT OPPOSITE. And I'm not even touching the fire multiple weapons at once with a single simple rules in this! Which is the only way you're going to get shiva arms involved. (and that doesn't even touch the silliness that you can't use them 1 at a time in a single PHASE, w/ only 2 actions to shoot without triggering the two at once dually rules).

All I'm saying is the use of the use of the general plural form indicates the rules already considered multiple different weapons.


Please do me a favor, don't reply to my posts. You constantly do this where you put words in my mouth I did NOT say. And draw ludicrous assertions which are the exact opposite of what I stated.
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 26 2010, 01:34 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 25 2010, 08:28 PM) *
I thought the whole point was that you don't have to split unless they're fired in the same action?

You don't.

But you're still suffering recoil and not "doubling up" on recoil compensation or anything either. It's not like the first shot is -2 recoil and the second is -5 (-2 + -3) or anything. At best you're gaining one whole point of 'free' recoil compensation at the cost of losing the use of your second hand, and even that isn't really accurate. The only thing is that you have to buy twice as much recoil compensation; instead of a single Gas Vent 3 to negate the recoil of both shots, you need two Gas Vent 2s or their equivalences. And, again, you're losing the use of your off-hand, which is going to suck when you need to reload or do whatever else. Whooptido.
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 26 2010, 01:35 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 25 2010, 08:32 PM) *
Please do me a favor, don't reply to my posts. You constantly do this where you put words in my mouth I did NOT say. And draw ludicrous assertions which are the exact opposite of what I stated.

QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 25 2010, 07:06 PM) *
Wow Muspy...

p152
"Weapons that fire more than one round..."
"Burst fire weapons recieve a -2 recoil modifier for the first burst fired IN THAT ACTION PHASE and a -3 for the second...."

Not "A weapon".... weapons.

That to me pretty clearly implies all weapons across a pass.

You were saying? That's the response I was replying to originally. Everything else was an extension thereof.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 26 2010, 01:39 AM
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Again, you *are* single-quotes-mean-figurative 'doubling up' on RC. It's just a figure of speech. You're firing 12 bullets and using the RC from two guns. This is not controversial. It's a tactic, yes, to get more bullets in the air. Nothing wrong with that, and no argument is implied by calling it 'doubling up'. I'm not saying you're cheating, and I think I explicitly said that you're buying and carrying two guns, using up two hands, etc.
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Falconer
post Apr 26 2010, 01:44 AM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 25 2010, 08:35 PM) *
You were saying? That's the response I was replying to originally. Everything else was an extension thereof.


And if you had half a clue, and read the quote in the post, you'd see I was taking issue w/ Muspellsheimr's correction.


Where he claimed exactly what you just stated... each individual weapon starts the recoil counter fresh.


I don't bloody care, if I'm right or wrong... it's simply a parsing of the rules debate. What I do take issue is people like you intentionally taking things completely out of context repeatedly.
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Karoline
post Apr 26 2010, 01:45 AM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 25 2010, 08:34 PM) *
But you're still suffering recoil and not "doubling up" on recoil compensation or anything either.


But that is exactly what this thread is about. The theory is: You have two guns, each of which has RC 6. Thus if you fire 6 bullets in a pass out of one gun, it has no recoil. Thus if you fire 6 bullets out of each gun separately, each gun generates no recoil. Thus if you are holding them both, fire one, and then fire the other, you generate no recoil penalties from firing 12 bullets in one pass, whereas if you fired 12 bullets out of a single gun with RC 6, you would be suffering a -5 recoil penalty.

So yes, 'doubling up' on recoil compensation is exactly what you are doing.
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 26 2010, 01:50 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline)
But that is exactly what this thread is about. The theory is: You have two guns, each of which has RC 6. Thus if you fire 6 bullets in a pass out of one gun, it has no recoil. Thus if you fire 6 bullets out of each gun separately, each gun generates no recoil. Thus if you are holding them both, fire one, and then fire the other, you generate no recoil penalties from firing 12 bullets in one pass, whereas if you fired 12 bullets out of a single gun with RC 6, you would be suffering a -5 recoil penalty.

So yes, 'doubling up' on recoil compensation is exactly what you are doing.

I guess I just have issue with the phrase "doubling up." You're not getting twice the recoil compensation from anything. Each option is giving you the exact same amount of recoil compensation as it would if you were only firing one weapon. There's no doubling anywhere. "Gaining the recoil compensation of two weapons in two separate Simple Actions with two separate attack rolls versus gaining the recoil compensation of a single weapon in a single Complex Action with only one attack roll" is one thing, and I get that part of the discussion. I just don't know where you're coming up with the phrase "doubling up." That never happens.
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Karoline
post Apr 26 2010, 02:01 AM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 25 2010, 09:50 PM) *
I guess I just have issue with the phrase "doubling up." You're not getting twice the recoil compensation from anything. Each option is giving you the exact same amount of recoil compensation as it would if you were only firing one weapon. There's no doubling anywhere. "Gaining the recoil compensation of two weapons in two separate Simple Actions with two separate attack rolls versus gaining the recoil compensation of a single weapon in a single Complex Action with only one attack roll" is one thing, and I get that part of the discussion. I just don't know where you're coming up with the phrase "doubling up." That never happens.


Ah, there is the problem. We aren't comparing using two SMGs fired with separate simple actions to a single SMG fired with a single complex action. We are comparing two SMGs fired with separate simple actions to a single SMG fired with two simple actions.

So, it goes something like this:
Simple action 1 - fire left hand SMG with 6 RC - shoots six bullets, no recoil - full DP
Simple action 2 - fire right hand SMG with 6 RC - shoots six bullets, no recoil - full DP

vs.

Simple action 1 - fire only SMG with 6 RC - shoots six bullets, no recoil - full DP
Simple action 2 - fire only SMG again with 6 RC - shoots six more bullets, recoil now exceeds RC - gives a -5 DP
(Yes, I know you can't fire two 6 bullet bursts with a single weapon, we're ignoring that for the sake of comparison)

So in essence, by picking up a second gun, you get to negate that -5 from increased recoil, in essence, doubling the amount of recoil compensation you have.

Oh, and if you want a real comparison.

vs
Complex action 1 - fire only SMG with 6 RC - shoots 10 bullets, -3 from recoil - gives a -3 DP

Once again, the duel wielded weapons have less recoil, even though they are firing the same (or more) number of bullets in the same amount of time.
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 26 2010, 02:16 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline)
Simple action 1 - fire only SMG with 6 RC - shoots six bullets, no recoil - full DP
Simple action 2 - fire only SMG again with 6 RC - shoots six more bullets, recoil now exceeds RC - gives a -5 DP

Err, see, that's just not right. The second shot gets the benefit of all six points of recoil compensation. Recoil compensation isn't spent (for lack of a better word) when used (ditto), even in the same action phase. If you have six points of recoil compensation, you have 0 recoil on both shots.

The only difference between those two options is the first one is -5 and -5 for the single shot from two weapons, whereas using a single weapon would be -5 and -6 for the first and second shot. But you need twice as many recoil compensators (Cyberarm Gyromounts x2, Gas Vent 2 x2) for the two weapons, whereas you just need an extra point (Cyberarm Gryomount + Gas Vent 3) on the single weapon.

I almost get what you're saying if you assume a high-velocity weapon that can do 12 shots in a single attack. You need a lot more recoil compensation on that, which is harder to achieve, than the combined recoil compensators for two weapons. But the differences between those two options are glaring, and both have their perks and disadvantages. I'd, personally, much rather be using the HV weapon against a major threat than two potentially weaker shots each with their own chance of missing or doing poorly. And getting 11 points of recoil compensation isn't that difficult for a character who's dedicated to that style of combat.
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