If we take an ambidextrous character with 2 SMGs, each one with 5 points of RC, and fire a long burst from one SMG the first Simple Action, and the next Simple Action fire a long burst with the other one, there's no recoil that carries over, and there's no split dice pool since there's only 1 weapon fired per action.

And aren't you even able to add smartlink dice since you're not using two weapons in the same action?

It seems wrong, but by the rules it seems to be legit, doesn't it?

Is a long burst a simple action? I thought it was a complex.

That aside, its perfectly legit. One of the favorite moves of some people on these boards is to carry two of the ruger revolvers and blast 1 shot from each gun as simple/simple.

Aside from cinematic effect, and a larger supply of bullets between reloads, why would one do this?

Minimizing recoil.

It's only one point of recoil on the second shot that you save by using that second gun and a pistol grip is -1 recoil with each shot (and it requires that you use two hands to hold the SMG) so other than more easily swapped ammo, I'm not really seeing the draw of dualwielding SMG's.

Actually you save 5 points of recoil by using the second gun... not to mention the fact that you cannot fire an SMG, using two long bursts, unless it is an HV modified SMG...

1st SMG with Long Burst = 5 points of Recoil
2nd SMG with Long Burst = 5 points of Recoil

HV Modified SMG with 2 Long Bursts = 11 Points of Recoil

It is much more effecient to dual wield 2 SMG's with 5 points of recoil compensation each (assuming that you could do so) than it would be to fire an HV modified SMG with 5 points of Recoil Compensation... and there are many real world examples of SMG's small enough to fire with a siongle hand... not saying that you would be very accurate with that, but it is possible...

Keep the Faith

you probably could get the same weapon with 6 recoil in which case the benefit of shooting with one gun and then another is more combat turns between reloads

except you need to pay 5BP for ambidextrous

also carrying around twice as many weapons reduces concealability

although you do have the option to split dice pools now

pros and cons...

Long bursts require Complex Actions unless they also happen to be high-velocity weapons.

That is Full Bursts. Long Bursts only require a simple action.

Do they? My mistake then. I get those rules confused quite often.

Edit: Ninja'd by Gmoz... Damn...

Long Bursts require a Simple Action...

Keep the Faith

If you gasvent3 in each, it's a lot more than 1 recoil you save. If you also add cyberarm gyromounts to each...

Yup. My favorite method of using automatics is:

1. Wide Burst: -2 to ranged defense to make sure I hit them, giving them what should be at least -1 wound penalty
2. Long Narrow Burst: Now they're taking at least -2 to their ranged defense (-1 wound, -1 defended previously in IP), so I only need one net hit for the +5 DV.

No Tymeaus...

Recoil is cumulative across a pass... while I'm all for giving props for additional recoil comp for having a second gun.

The recoil chart is not per gun, it is per pass.

The devs have come out and said that the chart is made directly by taking the number of bullets fired that pass, and subtracting 1. (this becomes especially usefull to know when you start trying to dual wield pistols/smg's and fire them both simultaneously, IE: 2x2 short bursts)


The first point out of the second gun is not free. And there should be no difference between the HVAR modified 2 long burst, and firing one out of each hand (excepting the need for ambi to avoid penalties of course).


And yes, a short burst, can be done twice per pass per gun is a simple actions. A long burst can be done once per normal FA gun per pass as a simple action each. People are confusing full bursts which are FA complex actions w/ long.

Uh, what?

I'm fairly certain that it's uncompensated recoil that increases during the pass (see Attacker Using a Second Firearm, SR4A p. 150). Compensated recoil is ignored. If you have two SMGs with 6 points of recoil compensation, you can fire long bursts all day long without any recoil whatsoever.

He said, each gun had -5 points of recoil... so he fully compensated the recoil out of the first gun. (first bullet free, -5 for first long burst). Then claimed the first bullet out of the second gun was also free.

But recoil from first one still throws off the off-hand and is cumulative with it.

If you had 5RC with each gun you would be at -1 with the second SMG. It is a neat way to to it and you get two long bursts per pass, nice.

I do understand that the recoil is cumulative across the pass... Did I mess up my math...
<checks>
Yep, apparently forgot the first bullet in the second gun... sorry for that, but the point still stands of course... you can RC weapons to take care of the excess recoil, and if you can eliminate it, then it is all good... And i do understand how the chart, and multiple rounds works...but thanks for the descriptions of the rules anyway...

The difference is that the HVAR modded SMG only had 5 points of RC, whereas the two SMG's had 10 between them... in the case of the HVAR... there would have been 6 points uncompensated... which I believe WAS the point for wielding 2 weapons simultaneously... I agree that if you can obtain that requisite 11 points of RC for the HVAR, tehn yes, it wsould be the same as the Double wielded SMG's...

Keep the Faith

This might be in concordance with RAW except the rules explicitly say you can only fire one long burst in a pass. There is an exception to this for HV weapons and Miniguns, but no explicit exception when using two firearms in the same pass.

Of course there is no rule saying you CAN'T do this either so it's basically GM discretion.

As for realism it's kind of silly - sure the second gun is not directly affected by the recoil from the first, but anyone attempting to do this in real life would probably have less accuracy for the second burst - even though the first weapon is not firing anymore (thus stops recoiling) the recoil would affect the second arm to some degree as well.

Balance wise it's not that much of a big deal - it's quite possible to mod a weapon with HV and use RC to eliminate recoil from the two bursts anyway, but this costs more in modification.

In the end I'd probably allow it under the Rule of Cool.

No. Recoil from one weapon does not affect another, unless both weapons are fired with the same action.

In that instance, uncompensated recoil from one weapon (still weapon specific) is also applied as a penalty to the other.

I think it's ruled quite clearly in SR4A:



So only one Long Burst per Action Phase unless specialty rules say otherwise (like the HV stuff), or am I interpreting this wrong?
As I could not find anything that says 2 weapons allow for 2 Long Bursts (as opposed to HV weapons where it is stated explicitly) it is not allowed by RAW.

By default, the rules relate solely to a single weapon. You can dual wield two long bursts (those rules specifically mention them in Arsenal), but you couldn't get four off in a single phase.

Emphasis mine.

So you can fire them simultaneously but not one after another as is suggested here.

As I read the rules so far normal guns just can't fire fast enough so you simply don't have enough time to fire 2 long bursts one after the other in one action phase, that's where you need HV weapons which have a much higher cadence...

What about smartgun modifiers? Can you use them when doing this? The rule says

Attacker Using a Second Firearm
Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each
hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, requires
that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. [...] Two-gun attacks
also negate any dice pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights.

So, since I'm NOT firing both with a single Simple Action, the "no smartgun" rule doesn't apply either?

I generally think of long bursts as taking a "simple plus" action - it takes longer than a simple but less time than a complex, and you round down. A full burst is basically a long burst and a half, neh?

You can indeed get smartgun or laser sight bonuses for both guns so long as you fire with separate actions.

Smartlink Bonus can be added if you're switching Weapons
and because you're using only one Long Burst per Weapon thats perfectly legal (as long as the SMGs have FA )

he who dances with two Feet
Medicineman

I'm curious - how did you get started with your signature siggy? (pun intended)

The funny thing's that the cadence of SR guns depends on the shooter. If you have 1 IP, full-auto spits out 10 bullets. A wired-up streetsam with 4 IPs magically boosts his gun up to 40 rounds per combat turn.

The guy with 4 ips can accurately fire more bursts. I'd allow one IP goons to empty their weapons in 1 pass but for little effect.

Wow Muspy...

p152
"Weapons that fire more than one round..."
"Burst fire weapons recieve a -2 recoil modifier for the first burst fired IN THAT ACTION PHASE and a -3 for the second...."

Not "A weapon".... weapons.

That to me pretty clearly implies all weapons across a pass.

The chart on the right doesn't say (first burst per weapon), it only says first burst, second burst.


Besides even you have to admit it's a huge advantage being able to double up on recoil comp and magazine size by having 2 guns instead of one. As well as having the option to use a single simple to fire both at once. I always felt kinda bat for HVAR weapons as getting 11 points of RC on a single gun w/o a gyro is probably not gonna happen.

Double up on the recoil compensation? What are you talking about man?

Each weapon has its own recoil and its own recoil compensation. Uncompensated recoil of one weapon affects the other. Uncompensated. They don't generate extra recoil in and of themselves. The left gun still only generates -2 on the first simple action and -3 on the third, and so does the right one. If they don't have any recoil compensation, then you have a -4 and a -6 penalty, yes, but they don't generate a combination of -4 and -6 of recoil that both have to soak up independently (meaning 12! points of recoil compensation total). That's just plain incorrect.

Even as a house rule, that's harsh. Using two weapons is already crippling enough. They don't need any extra help at sucking compared to using a single one.

Using that logic, my best defense is to go first in a pass and spray rounds with maximum uncompensated recoil. This will ensure that any weapons fired after mine have lots of recoil to shoot through! Also, if I fire a long burst first, no one else can do so for that action phase! That's the RAW!

Funk... instead of just posting and inserting your foot into your mouth... try thinking through what I said and actually applying some reading comprehension.

I'll spell it out... with two guns... you get *TWO* gas vent 3's, *TWO* personalized grips, *TWO* whatever elses... You've doubled up on the recoil comp options. Getting to 5or6 RC isn't all that tough. Getting past that point gets very rough.

Exactly how are you going to get the HVAR SMG up to 11 points of RC? You run out of mods and accessories right quick. And same size mag firing faster means lasts shorter... compared to having 2 full mags.


And if you can't understand basic grammar and sentence structure, I can't help you.


How is it sucking to have doubled up the amount of easily available recoil comp... fire one burst from your right, then another from your second for only a mere -2 ambi penalty... (especially if you're using laser sights rather than smartlink so you don't have to worry about using the free action to switch which gun you use).

Incorrect, I even highlighted it... "ACTION PHASE".

P65. "The point in time during each combat turn when a specific character can act is called an action phase"
"Each phase, a character can take one Complex Action OR two Simple Actions".... one free action during each PASS. (IE: the free action can but does not have to occur in their action phase).

I did. Let's have another look at your quoted reference.

"Burst-fire weapons receive a –2 recoil modifier for the first burst fired in that Action Phase and –3 for the second."

By your logic, ALL you receive when firing burst-fire weapons is a -2 recoil modifier. You can be firing 100 different weapons and still only get that -2 recoil. Afterall, it says "weapons," right? Wrong. Your problem is that you don't seem to get that their use of the phrase "burst-fire weapons" is just that; a discussion of all burst-fire weapons. Be it SMGs, Assault Rifles, Machine Pistols, or whatever else.

The rules, by default, assume you're only firing one of these weapons at a time. Hence the continuation of that same thought -- as expressed in a single sentence -- where they describe the -2 and -3 recoil penalties. Again, if the sentence worked the way you seem to want it to work, then you can get those Shiva Arms multiple times, load up on 4, 6, 8, or more weapons, and fire them like mad in burst-fire mode, suffering only a total of -2 recoil with the first Simple Action and -3 on the second. Which is not only wrong, but obviously stupid.

The rules for using a second firearm continue on from that base logic, stating that any uncompensated recoil is shared between weapons, not that they generate additional recoil on top of their normal recoil per gun.

Your interpretation is just wrong on every conceivable level.


<coughs>

Ugh, always with the 'ur dumb; no UR dumb!' crap.

It seems very powerful that you can use a second weapon to, yes, essentially benefit from 'extra' RC, but you're buying/carrying two guns, using up your other hand, probably can't use the foregrip, etc.; whatever. It's less clear that you can have two long bursts in the same AP, but, again, that's probably fine, too. NPCs can do it, too.

If this combo is imbalancing in your game, house-rule it. Make Ambidextrous cost more, disallow 'two long bursts per AP' regardless of weapons (except HV), or come up with something else.

You're also ignoring the fact that you have to split the base dice pool in half. That's the thing that really hurts. Even if you have Agility 9 and Automatics 9, your base dice pool is only 9, not 20 (the +2 from a smartgun included) like it is for the guy firing just one weapon. Recoil compensation doesn't even give you bonus dice, it just cuts back on the penalties. Which dual-wielders don't need any more of.

I thought the whole point was that you don't have to split unless they're fired in the same action?

Unrelated note: the off-hand penalty is only -2, so if you're relying on Ambidexterity to limit this action, that probably needs to be a higher penalty as well. Again, if you're house-ruling a 'fix'.

I think the main point Falconer is trying to make is that by using two SMGs with lots of recoil comp, over the course of one pass, you get 12(ish) points of recoil being compensated (6 from one gun, and 6 from the other). In theory, if you fired a single gun twice, you would get no penalties, and then your RC would run out and you'd be at -6, but by using two guns, you start dipping into a new pool of RC, and so your second gun gets no penalties.

Now, I'll be honest, from a real world standpoint this makes alot of sense. If you have two guns, both of which are so well weighted/balanced/vented/etc that they can put out 6 rounds without jiggling your arm, then firing 6 shots from each of them should continue to not jiggle your arm. But from a rules standpoint, the devs have gone to alot of trouble with arsenal to limit how much RC someone can get on a gun, and so it seems unlikely that they intend you to be able to (virtually) double your RC by using two guns in the way described in the OP.

As to firing two long bursts... Well, it says

See how it points out that the single shot weapon itself may be fired once per turn, but one long burst (no exception, no mention of per weapon) may be fired per turn. I'd have to agree with the idea that a long burst simply take 2/3rds of a turn to perform, and so you can't get two of them in one after the other as there isn't enough 'time' (time dilation via extra IP not withstanding).

Personally, despite the fact that it'd likely actually work out very well IRL, I'd slap the recoil penalty on the person using two SMGs with the recoil from one weapon carrying over to the other, and the RC from the second weapon not helping.

No, you only have to split your pool if you fire the two weapons as part of the same action. By firing one then the other, you get your full DP on both shots, just like if you had fired the same gun twice back to back.

Okay, but I don't see how that's related. You can, as was said, fire two different SS guns in one Phase.

All I can say is you're on crack... AND ATTRIBUTING THINGS TO ME I NEVER SAID, WHICH IS WHY I"M TAKING YOU TO TASK... and have abzolutely zero idea how you're coming up with assertion. Furthermore, you've done this repeatedly in the past.

First short burst is -2, second is -3. I don't care how many weapons you have... That's what I was stating, and you keep insisting on saying the EXACT OPPOSITE. And I'm not even touching the fire multiple weapons at once with a single simple rules in this! Which is the only way you're going to get shiva arms involved. (and that doesn't even touch the silliness that you can't use them 1 at a time in a single PHASE, w/ only 2 actions to shoot without triggering the two at once dually rules).

All I'm saying is the use of the use of the general plural form indicates the rules already considered multiple different weapons.


Please do me a favor, don't reply to my posts. You constantly do this where you put words in my mouth I did NOT say. And draw ludicrous assertions which are the exact opposite of what I stated.

You don't.

But you're still suffering recoil and not "doubling up" on recoil compensation or anything either. It's not like the first shot is -2 recoil and the second is -5 (-2 + -3) or anything. At best you're gaining one whole point of 'free' recoil compensation at the cost of losing the use of your second hand, and even that isn't really accurate. The only thing is that you have to buy twice as much recoil compensation; instead of a single Gas Vent 3 to negate the recoil of both shots, you need two Gas Vent 2s or their equivalences. And, again, you're losing the use of your off-hand, which is going to suck when you need to reload or do whatever else. Whooptido.

You were saying? That's the response I was replying to originally. Everything else was an extension thereof.

Again, you *are* single-quotes-mean-figurative 'doubling up' on RC. It's just a figure of speech. You're firing 12 bullets and using the RC from two guns. This is not controversial. It's a tactic, yes, to get more bullets in the air. Nothing wrong with that, and no argument is implied by calling it 'doubling up'. I'm not saying you're cheating, and I think I explicitly said that you're buying and carrying two guns, using up two hands, etc.

And if you had half a clue, and read the quote in the post, you'd see I was taking issue w/ Muspellsheimr's correction.


Where he claimed exactly what you just stated... each individual weapon starts the recoil counter fresh.


I don't bloody care, if I'm right or wrong... it's simply a parsing of the rules debate. What I do take issue is people like you intentionally taking things completely out of context repeatedly.

But that is exactly what this thread is about. The theory is: You have two guns, each of which has RC 6. Thus if you fire 6 bullets in a pass out of one gun, it has no recoil. Thus if you fire 6 bullets out of each gun separately, each gun generates no recoil. Thus if you are holding them both, fire one, and then fire the other, you generate no recoil penalties from firing 12 bullets in one pass, whereas if you fired 12 bullets out of a single gun with RC 6, you would be suffering a -5 recoil penalty.

So yes, 'doubling up' on recoil compensation is exactly what you are doing.

I guess I just have issue with the phrase "doubling up." You're not getting twice the recoil compensation from anything. Each option is giving you the exact same amount of recoil compensation as it would if you were only firing one weapon. There's no doubling anywhere. "Gaining the recoil compensation of two weapons in two separate Simple Actions with two separate attack rolls versus gaining the recoil compensation of a single weapon in a single Complex Action with only one attack roll" is one thing, and I get that part of the discussion. I just don't know where you're coming up with the phrase "doubling up." That never happens.

Ah, there is the problem. We aren't comparing using two SMGs fired with separate simple actions to a single SMG fired with a single complex action. We are comparing two SMGs fired with separate simple actions to a single SMG fired with two simple actions.

So, it goes something like this:
Simple action 1 - fire left hand SMG with 6 RC - shoots six bullets, no recoil - full DP
Simple action 2 - fire right hand SMG with 6 RC - shoots six bullets, no recoil - full DP

vs.

Simple action 1 - fire only SMG with 6 RC - shoots six bullets, no recoil - full DP
Simple action 2 - fire only SMG again with 6 RC - shoots six more bullets, recoil now exceeds RC - gives a -5 DP
(Yes, I know you can't fire two 6 bullet bursts with a single weapon, we're ignoring that for the sake of comparison)

So in essence, by picking up a second gun, you get to negate that -5 from increased recoil, in essence, doubling the amount of recoil compensation you have.

Oh, and if you want a real comparison.

vs
Complex action 1 - fire only SMG with 6 RC - shoots 10 bullets, -3 from recoil - gives a -3 DP

Once again, the duel wielded weapons have less recoil, even though they are firing the same (or more) number of bullets in the same amount of time.

Err, see, that's just not right. The second shot gets the benefit of all six points of recoil compensation. Recoil compensation isn't spent (for lack of a better word) when used (ditto), even in the same action phase. If you have six points of recoil compensation, you have 0 recoil on both shots.

The only difference between those two options is the first one is -5 and -5 for the single shot from two weapons, whereas using a single weapon would be -5 and -6 for the first and second shot. But you need twice as many recoil compensators (Cyberarm Gyromounts x2, Gas Vent 2 x2) for the two weapons, whereas you just need an extra point (Cyberarm Gryomount + Gas Vent 3) on the single weapon.

I almost get what you're saying if you assume a high-velocity weapon that can do 12 shots in a single attack. You need a lot more recoil compensation on that, which is harder to achieve, than the combined recoil compensators for two weapons. But the differences between those two options are glaring, and both have their perks and disadvantages. I'd, personally, much rather be using the HV weapon against a major threat than two potentially weaker shots each with their own chance of missing or doing poorly. And getting 11 points of recoil compensation isn't that difficult for a character who's dedicated to that style of combat.