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> Dualwielding SMGs and firing 1 long burst each, With no recoil and no split pool?
Smokeskin
post Apr 25 2010, 04:31 PM
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If we take an ambidextrous character with 2 SMGs, each one with 5 points of RC, and fire a long burst from one SMG the first Simple Action, and the next Simple Action fire a long burst with the other one, there's no recoil that carries over, and there's no split dice pool since there's only 1 weapon fired per action.

And aren't you even able to add smartlink dice since you're not using two weapons in the same action?

It seems wrong, but by the rules it seems to be legit, doesn't it?
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Starmage21
post Apr 25 2010, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Apr 25 2010, 11:31 AM) *
If we take an ambidextrous character with 2 SMGs, each one with 5 points of RC, and fire a long burst from one SMG the first Simple Action, and the next Simple Action fire a long burst with the other one, there's no recoil that carries over, and there's no split dice pool since there's only 1 weapon fired per action.

And aren't you even able to add smartlink dice since you're not using two weapons in the same action?

It seems wrong, but by the rules it seems to be legit, doesn't it?


Is a long burst a simple action? I thought it was a complex.

That aside, its perfectly legit. One of the favorite moves of some people on these boards is to carry two of the ruger revolvers and blast 1 shot from each gun as simple/simple.
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pbangarth
post Apr 25 2010, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Apr 25 2010, 09:36 AM) *
Is a long burst a simple action? I thought it was a complex.

That aside, its perfectly legit. One of the favorite moves of some people on these boards is to carry two of the ruger revolvers and blast 1 shot from each gun as simple/simple.
Aside from cinematic effect, and a larger supply of bullets between reloads, why would one do this?
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RedFish
post Apr 25 2010, 04:39 PM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 25 2010, 05:38 PM) *
Aside from cinematic effect, and a larger supply of bullets between reloads, why would one do this?


Minimizing recoil.
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Banaticus
post Apr 25 2010, 05:01 PM
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It's only one point of recoil on the second shot that you save by using that second gun and a pistol grip is -1 recoil with each shot (and it requires that you use two hands to hold the SMG) so other than more easily swapped ammo, I'm not really seeing the draw of dualwielding SMG's.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 25 2010, 05:14 PM
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QUOTE (Banaticus @ Apr 25 2010, 11:01 AM) *
It's only one point of recoil on the second shot that you save by using that second gun and a pistol grip is -1 recoil with each shot (and it requires that you use two hands to hold the SMG) so other than more easily swapped ammo, I'm not really seeing the draw of dualwielding SMG's.


Actually you save 5 points of recoil by using the second gun... not to mention the fact that you cannot fire an SMG, using two long bursts, unless it is an HV modified SMG...

1st SMG with Long Burst = 5 points of Recoil
2nd SMG with Long Burst = 5 points of Recoil

HV Modified SMG with 2 Long Bursts = 11 Points of Recoil

It is much more effecient to dual wield 2 SMG's with 5 points of recoil compensation each (assuming that you could do so) than it would be to fire an HV modified SMG with 5 points of Recoil Compensation... and there are many real world examples of SMG's small enough to fire with a siongle hand... not saying that you would be very accurate with that, but it is possible...

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mmmkay
post Apr 25 2010, 05:29 PM
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you probably could get the same weapon with 6 recoil in which case the benefit of shooting with one gun and then another is more combat turns between reloads

except you need to pay 5BP for ambidextrous

also carrying around twice as many weapons reduces concealability

although you do have the option to split dice pools now

pros and cons...

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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 25 2010, 05:32 PM
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Long bursts require Complex Actions unless they also happen to be high-velocity weapons.
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Gmoz
post Apr 25 2010, 05:39 PM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 25 2010, 11:32 AM) *
Long bursts require Complex Actions unless they also happen to be high-velocity weapons.

That is Full Bursts. Long Bursts only require a simple action.
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 25 2010, 05:39 PM
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Do they? My mistake then. I get those rules confused quite often.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 25 2010, 05:39 PM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 25 2010, 11:32 AM) *
Long bursts require Complex Actions unless they also happen to be high-velocity weapons.


Edit: Ninja'd by Gmoz... Damn...

Long Bursts require a Simple Action...

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D2F
post Apr 25 2010, 05:48 PM
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QUOTE (Banaticus @ Apr 25 2010, 05:01 PM) *
It's only one point of recoil on the second shot that you save by using that second gun and a pistol grip is -1 recoil with each shot (and it requires that you use two hands to hold the SMG) so other than more easily swapped ammo, I'm not really seeing the draw of dualwielding SMG's.

If you gasvent3 in each, it's a lot more than 1 recoil you save. If you also add cyberarm gyromounts to each...
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Octopiii
post Apr 25 2010, 06:19 PM
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QUOTE (Gmoz @ Apr 25 2010, 10:39 AM) *
That is Full Bursts. Long Bursts only require a simple action.


Yup. My favorite method of using automatics is:

1. Wide Burst: -2 to ranged defense to make sure I hit them, giving them what should be at least -1 wound penalty
2. Long Narrow Burst: Now they're taking at least -2 to their ranged defense (-1 wound, -1 defended previously in IP), so I only need one net hit for the +5 DV.
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Falconer
post Apr 25 2010, 06:47 PM
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No Tymeaus...

Recoil is cumulative across a pass... while I'm all for giving props for additional recoil comp for having a second gun.

The recoil chart is not per gun, it is per pass.

The devs have come out and said that the chart is made directly by taking the number of bullets fired that pass, and subtracting 1. (this becomes especially usefull to know when you start trying to dual wield pistols/smg's and fire them both simultaneously, IE: 2x2 short bursts)


The first point out of the second gun is not free. And there should be no difference between the HVAR modified 2 long burst, and firing one out of each hand (excepting the need for ambi to avoid penalties of course).


And yes, a short burst, can be done twice per pass per gun is a simple actions. A long burst can be done once per normal FA gun per pass as a simple action each. People are confusing full bursts which are FA complex actions w/ long.
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 25 2010, 07:21 PM
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QUOTE
The first point out of the second gun is not free.

Uh, what?

I'm fairly certain that it's uncompensated recoil that increases during the pass (see Attacker Using a Second Firearm, SR4A p. 150). Compensated recoil is ignored. If you have two SMGs with 6 points of recoil compensation, you can fire long bursts all day long without any recoil whatsoever.
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Falconer
post Apr 25 2010, 07:31 PM
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He said, each gun had -5 points of recoil... so he fully compensated the recoil out of the first gun. (first bullet free, -5 for first long burst). Then claimed the first bullet out of the second gun was also free.

But recoil from first one still throws off the off-hand and is cumulative with it.
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Triggvi
post Apr 25 2010, 07:41 PM
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If you had 5RC with each gun you would be at -1 with the second SMG. It is a neat way to to it and you get two long bursts per pass, nice.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 25 2010, 07:57 PM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 25 2010, 12:47 PM) *
No Tymeaus...

Recoil is cumulative across a pass... while I'm all for giving props for additional recoil comp for having a second gun.

The recoil chart is not per gun, it is per pass.

The devs have come out and said that the chart is made directly by taking the number of bullets fired that pass, and subtracting 1. (this becomes especially usefull to know when you start trying to dual wield pistols/smg's and fire them both simultaneously, IE: 2x2 short bursts)


The first point out of the second gun is not free. And there should be no difference between the HVAR modified 2 long burst, and firing one out of each hand (excepting the need for ambi to avoid penalties of course).


And yes, a short burst, can be done twice per pass per gun is a simple actions. A long burst can be done once per normal FA gun per pass as a simple action each. People are confusing full bursts which are FA complex actions w/ long.


I do understand that the recoil is cumulative across the pass... Did I mess up my math...
<checks>
Yep, apparently forgot the first bullet in the second gun... sorry for that, but the point still stands of course... you can RC weapons to take care of the excess recoil, and if you can eliminate it, then it is all good... And i do understand how the chart, and multiple rounds works...but thanks for the descriptions of the rules anyway...

The difference is that the HVAR modded SMG only had 5 points of RC, whereas the two SMG's had 10 between them... in the case of the HVAR... there would have been 6 points uncompensated... which I believe WAS the point for wielding 2 weapons simultaneously... I agree that if you can obtain that requisite 11 points of RC for the HVAR, tehn yes, it wsould be the same as the Double wielded SMG's...

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FriendoftheDork
post Apr 25 2010, 08:07 PM
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This might be in concordance with RAW except the rules explicitly say you can only fire one long burst in a pass. There is an exception to this for HV weapons and Miniguns, but no explicit exception when using two firearms in the same pass.

Of course there is no rule saying you CAN'T do this either so it's basically GM discretion.

As for realism it's kind of silly - sure the second gun is not directly affected by the recoil from the first, but anyone attempting to do this in real life would probably have less accuracy for the second burst - even though the first weapon is not firing anymore (thus stops recoiling) the recoil would affect the second arm to some degree as well.

Balance wise it's not that much of a big deal - it's quite possible to mod a weapon with HV and use RC to eliminate recoil from the two bursts anyway, but this costs more in modification.

In the end I'd probably allow it under the Rule of Cool.
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Muspellsheimr
post Apr 25 2010, 08:27 PM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 25 2010, 12:47 PM) *
No Tymeaus...

Recoil is cumulative across a pass... while I'm all for giving props for additional recoil comp for having a second gun.

The recoil chart is not per gun, it is per pass.

No. Recoil from one weapon does not affect another, unless both weapons are fired with the same action.

In that instance, uncompensated recoil from one weapon (still weapon specific) is also applied as a penalty to the other.
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Nal0n
post Apr 25 2010, 08:35 PM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Apr 25 2010, 10:07 PM) *
---snip---

Of course there is no rule saying you CAN'T do this either so it's basically GM discretion.

---snip---


I think it's ruled quite clearly in SR4A:

QUOTE (SR4A p. 154)
Long bursts only take a Simple Action, but only one long burst
can be fired in an Action Phase. An attacker could, however, fire a long
burst and a short burst in the same Action Phase (or vice versa).


So only one Long Burst per Action Phase unless specialty rules say otherwise (like the HV stuff), or am I interpreting this wrong?
As I could not find anything that says 2 weapons allow for 2 Long Bursts (as opposed to HV weapons where it is stated explicitly) it is not allowed by RAW.
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 25 2010, 08:42 PM
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By default, the rules relate solely to a single weapon. You can dual wield two long bursts (those rules specifically mention them in Arsenal), but you couldn't get four off in a single phase.
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Nal0n
post Apr 25 2010, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE (Arsenal p. 163)
Only SMG or smaller-sized weapons that can be fired with a Simple Action can be fired simultaneously. This means that you may not fire a full burst (which requires a Complex Action) while simultaneously firung another weapon. It is possible, however, to fire a full-auto long burst simultaneously with another weapon, or even to fire long bursts with two weapons at the same time.


Emphasis mine.

So you can fire them simultaneously but not one after another as is suggested here.

As I read the rules so far normal guns just can't fire fast enough so you simply don't have enough time to fire 2 long bursts one after the other in one action phase, that's where you need HV weapons which have a much higher cadence...
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Smokeskin
post Apr 25 2010, 08:59 PM
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What about smartgun modifiers? Can you use them when doing this? The rule says

Attacker Using a Second Firearm
Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each
hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, requires
that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. [...] Two-gun attacks
also negate any dice pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights.


So, since I'm NOT firing both with a single Simple Action, the "no smartgun" rule doesn't apply either?
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Tyro
post Apr 25 2010, 09:05 PM
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I generally think of long bursts as taking a "simple plus" action - it takes longer than a simple but less time than a complex, and you round down. A full burst is basically a long burst and a half, neh?

You can indeed get smartgun or laser sight bonuses for both guns so long as you fire with separate actions.
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