It might serve to remind people that the culprit in all this mess is and remains Coleman. They can draw their own conclusions by checking who supports Coleman, and who does not.

Ya know what, never mind.

That's an assumption you make, I'd be satisfied for example by the announcement that they will take Coleman to the court and make him sell his house to pay them back.

Where? Link to a post or two.

Actually I just wrapped up one of two 4e games I'm running (college kids go home over the summer) and am gearing up for my next session in a week of Dusk (they're in Lagos and about to enter Surulere on a mission for Kayin). As for the college game I am keeping it going via emails and a Google Group over the summer. So yeah you could say I'm doing my part to support the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'd like to take this opportunity to give a big thumbs up to Jennifer Harding for her fine work on Dusk and Feral Cities, and her incredible patience putting up with my questions at GenCon last year. I'm sorry to see you left CGL, but I totally agree with your actions and position and am glad you were able to land a new job so quickly. That speaks volumes as to your abilities. Good luck in your new job and hope to see you either at Origins or GenCon.

Just making sure... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

Seriously, I just said that because this debate keeps going on and on. I am as concerned as any Shadowrun fan since it really is a love of mine. I would have never gotten into RPG's as deep as I have if I didn't have Shadowrun.

But arguing about things we have no immediate control over is just redundant and wasteful. Not to mention that these threads are starting to become fights between freelancers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I would like to know in all this how LLC feels about CGL products being put on bittorrent? I think that would be an interesting case-study into how his mind works.


I would also say that those that continue to jump all over Frank, even after having him perma-banned, really need to move on. Also those of us that supported his releasing of the information that he did get out to all of us, does not make us "Cult of Frank" members. It makes us those that like to have information about companies and their practices. It makes us those that want to know when products that we buy are going to companies that at the least make horrible choices, and possibly even worse, criminally suspect choices. Are you the type that buy the B.S. that oil companies put out when they have an oil spill? How about the spin that politicians put out when they are in the fryer?

Then why stick up for this guy? Seriously?

I'd says this qualifies:


<Edit> this one too:


And Darkeus, the people playing the game are probably posting in threads related to that (like the dozens of active threads surrounding this one.) I wouldn't go into a hacking thread and start asking why people are talking about hacking when they could be playing magicians.

See, this is what I am talking about. Lighten up dude. Wow, that post is like I just ran over your dog or something... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Point is, can't do anything about it. Topps will either renew the contract or give it to someone else or kill it. It seems to me that these "discussions" have done more to hurt personal relationships and detriment the situation than help make sure Shadowrun is taken care of...

Really, what have these threads done to help the situation come to a positive end? Talk about what you guys want to but the negativity is deep. People have been perma-banned, feelings are hurt and professional relationships ruined. I'll let you take it from there...

Well I know I've learned more about the ins and outs of the table-top RPG business than I ever would have known without these threads. I've also learned more about how small businesses are run and things to be cautious about. Along those lines I've also been surprised to discover how small the scale of operations can be for what I had previously thought of as higher tier RPGs. I've also discovered Posthuman Studios and some other RPG lines I didn't know about (I've been out of the RPG loop for a long time before getting back into Shadowrun.) We've also had many insightful and interesting posts by current and past writers for Shadowrun and other games discussing their experiences; some dating back to the creation of Shadowrun itself. I've also discovered some other gaming message boards as a result of these threads. And, to be honest, I'll admit to getting a bit of a soap-opera/guilty-pleasure feeling reading the ongoing discussion.

Nor am I saying that there hasn't been some great knowledge laid down in this thread but that stuff doesn't help for this situation to come to a positive end. It just educates you on what the reality of the business truly is. I have also seen some nice discussions from writers and it has served to drag some of them out of the Shadows for sure. It is awesome to get their insight, especially from Tom Dowd...

Glad you got to hear about Posthuman Studios, they should put out great things in the future. Hell, Eclipse Phase is awesome now!

I must admit that I may be a bit more in the loop than you say you were so I guess those things didn't interest me as much. I have also been informed of the other rpg message boards as well.

All of that is fine and dandy but I see your last sentence and see your true motives... You are really all in for the drama!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In reality dude, all I am trying to do is lighten up the mood a little. It seems so negative in here and I am hoping that people are not forgetting what is really important:

Shadowrun

Despite what Hollywood shows you, the success of something is not measured in whether it ends positively. This is Shadowrun after all. I'm just assuming there's a Johnson behind this that's one step closer to his payoff.

Mesh

Point... It is Shadowrun...

Hey, a mostly positive result would be best for us all.. I must admit that my idea of success has not been groomed by Hollywood. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think the major issue is, Darkeus, there is no one defined "positive ending" for this series of situations/events. While I suspect that 99% of people with an interest in the games effected want the games to continue in some form or another, no matter what -- it's easy to see that there are many different ways that could possibly happen. Same goal, multiple paths to success.

I also concede to your point. "Positive outcome" is a highly variable term that is not yet defined and may not be defined for years to come. Some may see it to be positive if CGL loses the license only to see Shadowrun and Battletech come into less than capable hands and therefore ruined. Not so positive for that outcome in the end...

It can also be said that it could stay with CGL and go down a similar crappy path...

Which leads me back to my original point. It is out of most of us regular cats hands (I realize that you are more involved than the regular guy, you being who you are and part of Posthuman Studios). It can be fun to discuss such things civil like but these threads have gotten nasty more than anything else, IMO...

Oh well... I am gonna keep worrying about Shadowrun overall and hope my favorite game lands in capable hands...

Instead of "Positive Outcome" we need more "Happy Ending"

BlueMax

Every man could use more "Happy Endings"

<drumroll>

I am here all night... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I think that is my cue to find the door!

"The difficulty is that in real life, truth is a good idea when it is not threatening. If truth is threatening, the appropriate tactics and games will be displayed to reduce the threat while covertly distorting the truth."
- Chris Argyris. (1980). "Making the Undiscussable and its Undiscussability Discussable." Public Administration Review 5(6).

It suppose it goes without saying that both factions (self included) have actively and unknowingly engaged in such tactics and games.

While I understand Darkeus' point and concern, as he says, that there is a lot of negativity, the simple fact is that this is an ongoing issue, so people are going to discuss it. I agree that coming in and saying "move on" isn't going to help. If you'd rather it be a more positive discussion, find a positive aspect to discuss. Don't just say " don't discuss it".

On the flip side of this coin, you can say "Don't discuss the CGL situation, so much".
Look, some of my players are putting in more hours per week discussing this than they are putting in to playing or preparing. I think its in the best interest of those, like me, who aren't professionally involved, to keep participation to less than hours spent at the game table.

If people put this much effort into writing fan modules, we would be choked in content.

BlueMax
/reminds me that I need to find someone to edit
// and then a few people to tear it apart
/// and then public release

There is nothing really to discuss. Either the license moves on or it stays with CGL. Everything else is conjecture and debate. I am unable to provide a positive aspect because there is nothing left to discuss that any of us have control over.

What I am saying is that while discussion is all fine and dandy, let us think about all of the vitrol and negative comments that keep being thrown around. In reality, the discussion has more than served its purpose. It is slowly moving into "Dead horses and why you shouldn't beat one" territory. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Will anything we discuss have any influence on Shadowrun overall? Nope, nor can we do anything about Topps' decision. Some people have been educated about the reality of small business but I also fear that people could be pushed away from Shadowrun from all the negative publicity.

Then again, everybody is free to discuss what they choose. Hopefully it will become a more positive discussion.

On the contrary we have the power to ensure that Catalyst dies by starving it of the vital oxygen of commerce.

The question remains, should we?

And there it is again.

The microscopically small vocal minority is exactly that. You don't have the power to ensure jack squat, no matter how much you brood and sneer from your tiny little corner of the World Wide Web. In fact, I have no doubt that you and the others in the minority would be the first in line to get any new published works just so you can justify your seething hatred of some guy who didn't even have a thing to do with writing the book itself.

Point: Dr. Funkenstien

Look, a majority of Shadowrun players HAVE NO CLUE WHAT IS GOING ON! I am sure that will change soon enough but the minority that do have no real power to do much. Get a majority and then we will talk making a change...

Trust me, we could make a dent but choke them out? Nope...

If these people are going to achieve nothing by this, why are you so viciously acting against them? Fear, you might be proven wrong?

Why should these people buy product from a company that drove away respected contributers to the game, while voicing a boycott because of ethics?

Just because it's Shadowrun?