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Nifft
post May 10 2010, 04:30 AM
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What constitutes "good" Summoner behavior?

What characterizes "normal" (neither notably noble nor nefarious) Summoner / Binder behavior?

What are the hallmarks of abuse?

Thanks, -- N
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Patrick the Gnom...
post May 10 2010, 05:32 AM
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QUOTE (Nifft @ May 10 2010, 12:30 AM) *
What constitutes "good" Summoner behavior?

What characterizes "normal" (neither notably noble nor nefarious) Summoner / Binder behavior?

What are the hallmarks of abuse?

Thanks, -- N

Abuse is treating a spirit like a slave or a tool. Spirits are intelligent beings, they don't take kindly to being used as sustaining foci or some other utility. Normal summoning/binding behavior is one of respect based on tradition, and isn't particularly general. The normal terms of use of a voodoo practicioner generally involve the possession of themself or a prepared person, not a hostile enemy. A shaman mostly treats his spirits as you might expect, nature spirits who will help him fight or cast spells if he pays their price. Other traditions have other common practices, although exiting the bounds of those practices doesn't neccesarily constitute an abuse, just an abnormality. Basically, it's up to you. If a player is doing something woth his spirits that seems either broken or disrespectful, you are within your rights as a GM to call him on it and have the spirit have an ingame argument with its summoner over proper summoning procedure (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Tomothy
post May 10 2010, 07:33 AM
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My group believes that simply binding your spirits constitutes spirit abuse.
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I Hate All Life
post May 10 2010, 01:53 PM
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QUOTE (Tomothy @ May 10 2010, 01:33 AM) *
My group believes that simply binding your spirits constitutes spirit abuse.

You should correct your group, then. What the books say really doesn't reflect this.
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Demonseed Elite
post May 10 2010, 01:57 PM
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The books do say that spirits resent binding, however. Abuse might be too strong of a word to apply to all bound spirits, but they don't like it at all.
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Banaticus
post May 10 2010, 02:06 PM
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QUOTE (Patrick the Gnome @ May 9 2010, 09:32 PM) *
Abuse is treating a spirit like a slave or a tool.

The books say that the standard hermetic tradition is to treat the spirit like a tool. The standard summoning ritual involves the spirit's real name, which is how you're able to attempt to bind it. The spirit isn't a "free spirit" -- once dismissed, it can't come back to the astral or physical planes on its own without being summoned again.

Free spirits, on the other hand, require a trip to the metaplanar realm to find the true name before a binding attempt. And, once their tasks owed are paid off, they're free to go... or to come back and mess with you (although, since you know their true name and are capable of binding them again discretion on their part is probably the better part of valor).

By the RAW, abuse for a hermetic tradition magician is doing something crazy, like feeding on the spirit or draining its essence or something like that. By the RAW, using a spirit as a tool (or using a spirit the same way that a technomancer uses a sprite) is par for the course.
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koogco
post May 10 2010, 02:38 PM
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Well, we have one mage conducting what i would define as exceptionally good behaviour, he often lets spirits off even though they still ove him several services, or offer that they can charge more services than needed for a given task. He also likes to play chess with spirits of man, and its sort of obvious that he is going for the spirit affinity quality.
I would certainly classify binding spirits as normal behaviour, even though we sometimes roleplay the stronger spirits (force 4 or 5 and above) as being rather upset about it.
Abusive behavour, would be things like having your spirit do long and tedious or silly and laughable tasks repeatedly, as well as making fun of them or treating them with other kinds of disrespect.
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Ol' Scratch
post May 10 2010, 02:49 PM
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Depends on how you go about it. Abusing a spirit is just like abusing a person. "Hey, Mr. Fire Elemental. See that ocean over there? Go dive in." "Hey, Mr. Spirit. Take this bomb and run into the room over there then push this button." "Hey, Mr. Spirit, get over and carry me to the toliet. I don't feel like walking." "Hey, Mrs. Dikoted Ally Spirit, get over here and have sex with me." Those are all forms of spirit abuse. The act of summoning or even binding shouldn't be unless you're particularly cruel about how you describe doing it.

And Hell, binding certainly doesn't have to be a hostile affair in and of itself, either. Bargaining is a perfectly acceptable form of binding, and it's one I often use particularly when playing magicians with a fey-oriented tradition I created some time back. In a very simplistic nutshell, the magician would coach a fey spirit out of hiding (via summoning), then they'd sit down and have a drinking competition (the cost of the binding materials) while they hammer out the details of the bargain. Whoever managed to not pass out/fall out of their seat/whatever the first won (the actual binding test, with the drunkedness being represented by the drain).
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Draco18s
post May 10 2010, 03:47 PM
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QUOTE (Tomothy @ May 10 2010, 03:33 AM) *
My group believes that simply binding your spirits constitutes spirit abuse.


That's stupid. How does your group get around the "only one unbound spirit" issue?
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Tanegar
post May 10 2010, 03:57 PM
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QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ May 10 2010, 09:57 AM) *
The books do say that spirits resent binding, however. Abuse might be too strong of a word to apply to all bound spirits, but they don't like it at all.

This reminds me of a thought I had a while ago: how would a spirit feel about being bound if it were being Invoked? "I can make you bigger and stronger, but only if you let me bind you."
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Shinobi Killfist
post May 10 2010, 04:14 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 10 2010, 11:47 AM) *
That's stupid. How does your group get around the "only one unbound spirit" issue?


I'd guess they only have one spirit running around with them at most. I rarely bind its not like you need to bind in order to be successful. A single spirit is a powerhouse in its own right, you don't really need 5 of them at your beck and call.
While I don't agree with there ruling it isn't stupid, its just another way to play the game.
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Starmage21
post May 10 2010, 06:46 PM
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ May 10 2010, 12:14 PM) *
I'd guess they only have one spirit running around with them at most. I rarely bind its not like you need to bind in order to be successful. A single spirit is a powerhouse in its own right, you don't really need 5 of them at your beck and call.
While I don't agree with there ruling it isn't stupid, its just another way to play the game.


But hey, if you want to keep spirits good will in your favor, you never have to worry about spending money on binding materials, evar!
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dirkformica
post May 10 2010, 10:48 PM
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Dedicated summoners should always take this Knowledge skill at 5 or 6: Keeping Spirits Happy. And in their gear section buy books entitled things like "Guardians: A Summoner's Guide to a Happy, Healthy Spirit." Also, if you fear a GM may have extreme biases against spirit use (such as Tomothy's group) you may need to finagle the points to buy Spirit Affinity for whatever spirit you intend to use the most. Combine all of those things and you can summon a big, bad Spirit of Man, have it cast a burly spell on you (or more), roll your knowledge skill, consult your books, give him a nice friendly Affinity boosted wink and send him off to have the best time of its existance, partying down and loving the universe as it fuels your power. Good times...
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Draco18s
post May 10 2010, 11:06 PM
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QUOTE (dirkformica @ May 10 2010, 06:48 PM) *
Dedicated summoners should always take this Knowledge skill at 5 or 6: Keeping Spirits Happy. And in their gear section buy books entitled things like "Guardians: A Summoner's Guide to a Happy, Healthy Spirit." Also, if you fear a GM may have extreme biases against spirit use (such as Tomothy's group) you may need to finagle the points to buy Spirit Affinity for whatever spirit you intend to use the most. Combine all of those things and you can summon a big, bad Spirit of Man, have it cast a burly spell on you (or more), roll your knowledge skill, consult your books, give him a nice friendly Affinity boosted wink and send him off to have the best time of its existance, partying down and loving the universe as it fuels your power. Good times...


Goes hand in hand with the Hacker's Knowledge: I saw it on the Matrix skill.
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Falconer
post May 11 2010, 04:25 AM
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Generally...

Don't use the spirit as cannon fodder.
Don't drain the hell out of them.
Don't abuse them on extremely long services.
Don't give them impossible tasks. (count the grains of sand on that beach one at a time)
Bitchslap and abuse anyone who says grounding out rules are good... (many spirits died in the old days due to astral mages abusing them as dual-natured anchors to fireball mundanes from the safety and security of the astral plane).

I even go so far as to actively release or heal a spirit when it's hurt (sometimes both).
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Shinobi Killfist
post May 11 2010, 04:35 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ May 11 2010, 12:25 AM) *
Bitchslap and abuse anyone who says grounding out rules are good... (many spirits died in the old days due to astral mages abusing them as dual-natured anchors to fireball mundanes from the safety and security of the astral plane).


Hey now, it was an awesome idea and it did limit the use of foci. Yes it was prone to abuse with spirits(which was abusive to spirits) and required the DM to play the spirits are pissy with you card and hope the player cared. And sure when there is a blatant rules abuse built into the system something needs to be done. So yes it should have been fixed/removed in order to make a better system. I just wish they had gone with fixed instead of removed. I actually would have liked if they had made it so grounding was still in, but you could only ground spells into targets with the astral link. So you could ground from a focus into whoever it was bound to but no one else. AoEs did not bloom in the physical world the only person hit was the person who bound the focus. then I'd go so far as to say the same astral link exists in bound spirits.(maybe even summoned ones). It would curtail some of the power of mages, spirits, and foci all of which could use some power curtailing.
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Xahn Borealis
post May 11 2010, 07:47 AM
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Well just imagine you were a spirit. What would piss you off?
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dirkformica
post May 11 2010, 08:52 AM
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QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ May 10 2010, 11:47 PM) *
Well just imagine you were a spirit. What would piss you off?


I'm going to bind a spirit of man and a spirit of woMAN using copious edge in down time. Okay, both of you need to sustain these killer spells. Other than that I want you to have crazy mad sex for all time. I have done the research to ensure that you are both hot for each other (knowledge skill) I have also given you both some extra services beyond the spells to ensure you are both going to have the best several decades (hopefully) any spirits can have.
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Tomothy
post May 11 2010, 11:33 AM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 10 2010, 10:47 AM) *
That's stupid. How does your group get around the "only one unbound spirit" issue?

Well you either limit yourself to one unbound spirit or you bind spirits and be prepared for any potential repercussions down the road.
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Ol' Scratch
post May 11 2010, 12:04 PM
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Considering that the Binding skill itself says "the Binding skill is used to ask/demand long-term services from a spirit the magician has already summoned," I doubt all spirits consider binding to be distasteful. It doesn't have to be demanding or forceful (especially if done in a method similar to the one I pointed out in my previous post).
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The Jopp
post May 11 2010, 12:33 PM
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A few small notes from someone who usually dont summon spirits.

Spirit abuse is something that also applies to Watchers. There are several accounts on the abuse of watchers who has been thrown away like so much cannon fodder to test wards, assault spirits (gang bonus in astral combat) and in previous editions become lightning rods for grounding spells (much cheaper that spirits).

Spirits and watcher might not be cross with you right away but might start with taking orders literally and interpreting them slightly differently from the summoner.

A few examples.

Mages might want to be very explicit in their instructions to their spirit so that they don’t start talking to the guards at the complex it is supposed to be scouting – after all, if the mage didn’t tell the spirit to be covert then the order won’t qualify right?

Or the watcher told to keep someone under observation was not supposed to sit on the targets shoulder chatting away about the mages nightly habits…

Giving a spirit the order to confuse a group of enemies does not mean that the spirit ISN’T free to give them additional powers as well…like concealment, unless told.

Which means that the more abused the spirit the more wordplay it might use to twist every order of the mage, until he starts to become nicer.
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Nifft
post May 11 2010, 11:12 PM
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Okay, so let's see:

Positive:
- Letting Spirits go early (with Services remaining)
- Going to the Metaplanes to chill with your Spirit buddies
- Asking them if they have any requests & fulfilling them
- Healing them when they're injured

Neutral - Positive:
- Using Stun damage (instead of Physical) when fighting Spirits
- Releasing them from service when they're injured

Neutral:
- Binding them

Neutral - Negative:
- Compelling eternal service from a single Binding
- Letting them be destroyed in dangerous combat

Negative:
- Spell Binding them to death
- Using them as disposable diversions & magical trap detectors


Thoughts? Thanks, -- N
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Xahn Borealis
post May 12 2010, 02:40 PM
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QUOTE (dirkformica @ May 11 2010, 09:52 AM) *
I'm going to bind a spirit of man and a spirit of woMAN using copious edge in down time. Okay, both of you need to sustain these killer spells. Other than that I want you to have crazy mad sex for all time. I have done the research to ensure that you are both hot for each other (knowledge skill) I have also given you both some extra services beyond the spells to ensure you are both going to have the best several decades (hopefully) any spirits can have.



And I am going to kill myself and hope I come back as a Spirit of Man.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post May 12 2010, 03:32 PM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ May 10 2010, 08:49 AM) *
Depends on how you go about it. Abusing a spirit is just like abusing a person. "Hey, Mr. Fire Elemental. See that ocean over there? Go dive in." "Hey, Mr. Spirit. Take this bomb and run into the room over there then push this button." "Hey, Mr. Spirit, get over and carry me to the toliet. I don't feel like walking." "Hey, Mrs. Dikoted Ally Spirit, get over here and have sex with me." Those are all forms of spirit abuse. The act of summoning or even binding shouldn't be unless you're particularly cruel about how you describe doing it.

And Hell, binding certainly doesn't have to be a hostile affair in and of itself, either. Bargaining is a perfectly acceptable form of binding, and it's one I often use particularly when playing magicians with a fey-oriented tradition I created some time back. In a very simplistic nutshell, the magician would coach a fey spirit out of hiding (via summoning), then they'd sit down and have a drinking competition (the cost of the binding materials) while they hammer out the details of the bargain. Whoever managed to not pass out/fall out of their seat/whatever the first won (the actual binding test, with the drunkedness being represented by the drain).


I like that... elegant...
I used a similar method with my necromancer, but yours is VERY elegant, especially for "Fey" spirits... Kudos

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Saint Sithney
post May 15 2010, 12:14 AM
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If the Summoner is constantly hogging spotlight time with repetitive spirit use, then that's spirit abuse.

If the Summoner is being a huge dick to spirits for no real reason (counting sand et cetera,) and it's something which has zero effect on what's actually happening in the game, then I wouldn't even bother acknowledging it with repercussions. ("Sure. That happens. Whatever. Now, about that truckload of Clippers barreling toward you...") If said behavior was taking up game time and affecting play, then it's a case of the former.
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