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JesterX
post May 13 2010, 06:12 AM
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So, my character have these stats:

Agility: 4 (A little bit more than typical)
Firearms skill group: 3 (Professional)

So, I'm a professional with a better than average agility... not bad... A military grunt according to the rules...

He purchased a HK MP5 TX, nice submachine gun... So, I got 2 points of recoil compensation and a nice laser sight (+ 1 dice)

He try to fire at a punk who is 3 meters away...

The punk is not running, moving at normal speed...

So, If I try to shoot him with full auto (-9 dices minus gas vent 2) = - 7 Dice
+1 dice for my laser sight
For a total of -6 dices of modifier...

7 basic dices - 6 dices = 1 dice remaining...

I have only 33.3% of chance of hitting my target who is at ... 3 meters away... with 10 bullets?

66.7% of chances of missing?!

WTF?! And I'm a professional with better agility than average?!?!

Am I understanding this right?!
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Medicineman
post May 13 2010, 06:25 AM
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You get +1 Dice for Point Blank and the Punk gets -9 Dice to Dodge if Its a Wide Burst
If you Shoot only a long Burst (6Bullets)instead of Full Auto, You'll get +3 more Dice and you could Aim for a simple Action +1 more Dice

Hough !
Medicineman
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JesterX
post May 13 2010, 06:40 AM
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QUOTE (Medicineman @ May 13 2010, 02:25 AM) *
You get +1 Dice for Point Blank and the Punk gets -9 Dice to Dodge if Its a Wide Burst
If you Shoot only a long Burst (6Bullets)instead of Full Auto, You'll get +3 more Dice and you could Aim for a simple Action +1 more Dice

Hough !
Medicineman


I don't find the point blank modifier in my book. What page?

Shouldn't it be easier to hit targets with full auto rather than single-shot?!
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Udoshi
post May 13 2010, 06:41 AM
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At full auto? Dear god, yes you will miss without some more recoil compensation.

Use burst fire(short and long) and recalculate your odds.


edit: seriously break out Arsenal and get yourself an auto-adjusting weight, slings, foregrips, something if you want to use full bursts.
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JesterX
post May 13 2010, 07:05 AM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 13 2010, 02:41 AM) *
At full auto? Dear god, yes you will miss without some more recoil compensation.

Use burst fire(short and long) and recalculate your odds.


edit: seriously break out Arsenal and get yourself an auto-adjusting weight, slings, foregrips, something if you want to use full bursts.


Yeah, I know, I just find it ... weird/dysfunctionnal.
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Medicineman
post May 13 2010, 07:25 AM
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I don't find the point blank modifier in my book. What page?
German Arsenal Page 169
and Its a +2 Mod (Sorry (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )

Shouldn't it be easier to hit targets with full auto rather than single-shot?!
Not for You to Hit, but for the Punk to Dodge(thats why he gets -9 to Dodge on Full Auto Wide Burst)

with an even better Dance
Medicineman
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Makki
post May 13 2010, 08:20 AM
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QUOTE (JesterX @ May 13 2010, 08:12 AM) *
I have only 33.3% of chance of hitting my target who is at ... 3 meters away... with 10 bullets?

even worse, you have a 33% chance of shooting yourself (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
but at full auto without recoil, you're just spreading bullets in every direction vertical and horizontal...what do you expect?
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Stingray
post May 13 2010, 08:27 AM
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HK MP5 TX have Folding Stock that gives 1 rc if used..

if you do not care about noise:
FN P93 Praetor (1 rc) (2 rc if using stock)
Gas- vent 3 (3 rc)
Personalized Grip/ Electronic Firing mechanism) (1 rc)

2x short narrow Bursts (3 rounds/burst) (no recoil Penalties) or
1 Long narrow Burst (6 rounds) (no recoil penalties)
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Rotbart van Dain...
post May 13 2010, 08:29 AM
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QUOTE (Medicineman @ May 13 2010, 08:25 AM) *
and Its a +2 Mod

And it is for targets within 1 meter only. If the target is not in melee.
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Dixie Flatline
post May 13 2010, 08:45 AM
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QUOTE (JesterX @ May 13 2010, 12:05 AM) *
Yeah, I know, I just find it ... weird/dysfunctionnal.


Not really.

They call it spray & pray for a reason.
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Mercer
post May 13 2010, 10:59 AM
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Short controlled bursts. Know it, live it, love it.
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HappyDaze
post May 13 2010, 01:22 PM
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I tried that short controlled bursts thing in paintball...

The full auto guys seemed to have awesome (and painful) accuracy.

Was fun to get 'em when they went to reload though.

RL tangent aside, the problem with automatic fire in SR is that it's all based upon how much recoil throws off the last bullet and forgets that the first one coming out of the barrel shouldn't be so wildly inaccurate.
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Waya
post May 13 2010, 01:57 PM
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Paintball isn't exactly an accurate representation, using air means the recoil is so eligible that you can be as accurate as the gun is, but you're right that that the first shot in Shadowrun probably shouldn't have the recoil modifier applied fully.
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Yerameyahu
post May 13 2010, 02:00 PM
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It'd be such a pain to track them separately, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) While nothing's really 'real', I don't mind the system too much. Just use it right and remember that it's a game.
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TommyTwoToes
post May 13 2010, 02:05 PM
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QUOTE (Dixie Flatline @ May 13 2010, 04:45 AM) *
Not really.

They call it spray & pray for a reason.


Amen.

3 rouund bursts FTW.
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Creel
post May 13 2010, 03:44 PM
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QUOTE (JesterX @ May 13 2010, 01:40 AM) *
I don't find the point blank modifier in my book. What page?

Shouldn't it be easier to hit targets with full auto rather than single-shot?!



This man has never fired a submachine gun.

Think about holding a jackhammer in the air, and keeping the point of it in the same 1" area. This is not an easy thing to do without a large amount of mechanical assistance (recoil compensation).

Full auto has one purpose, suppression fire. You probably won't hit them, but they're not likely to spend time shooting back with all that lead in the air.
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Banaticus
post May 13 2010, 06:44 PM
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Since your guy is trained, he'd know that full auto is basically for noobs and that most militaries (including the US military branches) modify their assault rifles so that they can only be fired in single shot or burst mode, because giving even well trained soldiers the opportunity to fire in full auto during a combat situation is basically just throwing away a lot of good money on wasted bullets. I mean, you can only carry so many bullets -- you should make them count.
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KarmaInferno
post May 13 2010, 11:48 PM
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QUOTE (HappyDaze @ May 13 2010, 08:22 AM) *
I tried that short controlled bursts thing in paintball...

The full auto guys seemed to have awesome (and painful) accuracy.


Probably has something to do with the fact that paintball guns don't have a heck of a lot of recoil compared to many automatic firearms.

QUOTE (JesterX @ May 13 2010, 02:05 AM) *
Yeah, I know, I just find it ... weird/dysfunctionnal.


Why is it weird or dysfunctional?

You try firing an old Ingram MAC-10 without any recoil compensation in real life and you'll have maybe two shots in the general direction of where you were aiming and the rest will be in the ceiling.



-np
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hobgoblin
post May 14 2010, 01:09 AM
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i recall hearing a story where a gangster survived a attack thanks the to the recoil of the tommygun the attacker used, resulting in the bullets ending up above and to the right.
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HappyDaze
post May 14 2010, 05:39 AM
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QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ May 13 2010, 06:48 PM) *
Why is it weird or dysfunctional?

You try firing an old Ingram MAC-10 without any recoil compensation in real life and you'll have maybe two shots in the general direction of where you were aiming and the rest will be in the ceiling.



-np

It's weird/dysfunctional because in SR, the first two shots you mention wait around and follow the last one out of the barrel, so they all end up in the ceiling.
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Digital Heroin
post May 14 2010, 06:14 AM
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I'm not a professional soldier (I'm a professional sailor), but I qual on an assault rifle every year, sometimes several times a year, and I've been range qualified for longer than I've been in the military. In the 12 years I've been handling firearms I have fired on automatic a single time, and expended one mag. Why? So I could learn how impossible it is to be accurate with full-auto.

The penalty for full-auto game-wise reflects not only recoil, but the all too human tenancy to compensate too heavily. If you're three meters away, put two rounds in his chest, that'll handle him just fine.

If he's a troll, and you're three meters from him, get away.
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Medicineman
post May 14 2010, 06:49 AM
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QUOTE (Digital Heroin @ May 14 2010, 01:14 AM) *
.....

If he's a troll, and you're three meters from him, get away.

You can't. He's faster (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
You better lay down and pretend you're Dead.(Helps with Bears,might Help with Trolls)

with a fast Dance
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kzt
post May 14 2010, 04:17 PM
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QUOTE (Dixie Flatline @ May 13 2010, 01:45 AM) *
Not really.

They call it spray & pray for a reason.

I've fired an MP-5, it's perfectly controllable on full auto. You could put the entire magazine in long burst into a torso sized target at 3 meters. The automatic weapons rules are a bug, not a feature. There is a reason why 9mm and smaller caliber SMGs are used across the world and 7.6x51mm SMGs are NOT. Small light bullets recoil a lot less and can produce controllable guns on auto. This is also why most UK FALs and most US M14s are prevented from firing on automatic, those are virtually uncontrollable.

However, the recoil produced by the 10th bullet doesn't influence the trajectory of the 1st bullet in the least, so if your sights are on target so the gun would hit in semi-auto the first bullet from a burst on "uncontrollable" automatic weapon will still hit. They 10th bullet might well be shot wildly into the air, but the first one won't be.
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HappyDaze
post May 14 2010, 04:21 PM
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QUOTE (kzt @ May 14 2010, 11:17 AM) *
However, the recoil produced by the 10th bullet doesn't influence the trajectory of the 1st bullet in the least, so if your sights are on target so the gun would hit in semi-auto the first bullet from a burst on "uncontrollable" automatic weapon will still hit. They 10th bullet might well be shot wildly into the air, but the first one won't be.

Wait for the SR RAWdogger apologists to get to this one. Wait for it...
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Caadium
post May 14 2010, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (HappyDaze @ May 14 2010, 08:21 AM) *
Wait for the SR RAWdogger apologists to get to this one. Wait for it...


His point is true and accurate. This is not a RAW apology either. However, I will say this: Give me a viable alternative that keeps the game moving. Until I see one, RAW is the mechanic we have; even if the rule for my make-believe game doesn't match reality.

Seriously, this is one of those topics that likes to keep popping up. However, I don't recall seeing a viable alternative. I really would love to see one that does make more sense though.
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