 In Theory..., munckiny what ifs... |
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 May 28 2010, 02:57 AM
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#26
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Prime Runner Ascendant  Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022  |
QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 27 2010, 08:11 PM)  No, Force is used as the attribute for all Spirits. (Regular Spirits get their F+X statblocks on the astral) Free spirits are no different. Their Force rating is both the minimum and maximum and for all their attributes, including Magic and Edge. His stats are not 'at 2' they 'start at 2'... and get increased along with force. Unlike Regular Spirits, there is only the force.(there is no death, either) Okay, after re-reading the relevant sections, and contemplating for a bit, I can agree with that... Spirits never died anyway (unless Spell Bound), they are merely disrupted... Keep the Faith |
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May 28 2010, 06:23 AM
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#27
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 28 2010, 01:47 AM) Power Throw maxes out at 3 Levels... Keep the Faith I wondered about that and couldn't find anything about it. Is it in SR4A or an errata? Although, level 3 is a bit low, I'd rather keep it to +1STR/0,25 |
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May 28 2010, 11:46 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 298 Joined: 15-March 09 Member No.: 16,974 |
QUOTE Missile Mastery Cost: 1 Even the most harmless of items such as pens, coins, and playing cards become deadly weapons in the hands of an adept with Missile Mastery. Such is the character’s knack for throwing weapons that he adds +1 to the Damage Value of any non- explosivethrown weapon he uses. Improvised thrown weapons (such as playing cards, glasses or pens) have a Damage Value of (STR ÷ 2)P (round up) in the adept’s hands. At the adept’s discretion, thrown weapons that normally inflict stun damage may instead inflict physical. Though he didn't use it, it is a possibility. QUOTE Power Throw Cost: .25 per level Each level of this power adds 2 to the character’s effective Strength solely for the purpose of determining range and damage of thrown weapons and objects. Udoshi only added 1 point per level when he should have been adding two, and there is no listing of a limitation anywhere. QUOTE Free Spirit Attributes Free spirits have a Force special attribute that starts with a rating of 2. This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums and maximums for all attributes. It also acts as the spirit’s Magic attribute. Force increases can be purchased at character generation for the same price as any attribute. The natural maximum for the Force attribute is 6, although this can be later increased through initiation. A free spirit’s Force rating is the natural maximum for all Physical and Mental attributes, as well as its Edge attribute— so the player must raise Force if he wishes to raise the remaining attributes. In addition, free spirits have the same Physical, Mental, and Edge attributes as metahuman characters, which all start at 2 (their starting Force) at the start of character generation. A free spirits attributes all start at 2 and have to be purchased up from there, however the physical attributes are only used while materialized. |
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May 29 2010, 04:05 PM
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#29
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ May 28 2010, 05:46 AM) Udoshi only added 1 point per level when he should have been adding two, and there is no listing of a limitation anywhere. See the Street Magic Erratta... it is in there QUOTE A free spirits attributes all start at 2 and have to be purchased up from there, however the physical attributes are only used while materialized. See this is what I though too... but if you look further in the Quote you provided, Force is the Minimum and Maximum of the Spirits stats... YES, the stats all start at 2, at character creation as you indicated, but if you raise Force, then the Minimum is now 3, then 4, then... you get the point... I personally prefer that the Stats are independant of Force, as this will make a more balanced character... my Free Spirit originally had all stats of 2, with an Edge of 5 and a Force of 6... and Almost nothing else (3 skills and 3 spells)... but if you take the comment that "Force is the minumum and maximum cap for materialized Stats, well then, the Force sets the stats... Keep the Faith |
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May 29 2010, 06:52 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 664 Joined: 3-February 08 Member No.: 15,626 |
QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 27 2010, 06:11 PM) No, Force is used as the attribute for all Spirits. (Regular Spirits get their F+X statblocks on the astral) Free spirits are no different. Their Force rating is both the minimum and maximum and for all their attributes, including Magic and Edge. His stats are not 'at 2' they 'start at 2'... and get increased along with force. Unlike Regular Spirits, there is only the force.(there is no death, either) ??? My Runners Companion says differently Free Spirit Attributes Free spirits have a Force special attribute that starts with a rating of 2. This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural maximums for all attributes. It also acts as the spirit’s Magic attribute. Force increases can be purchased at character generation for the same price as any attribute. The natural maximum for the Force attribute is 6, although this can be later increased through initiation. A free spirit’s Force rating is the natural maximum for all Physical and Mental attributes, as well as its Edge attribute— so the player must raise Force if he wishes to raise the remaining attributes. In addition, free spirits have the same Physical, Mental, and Edge attributes as metahuman characters, which all start at 2 (their starting Force) at the start of character generation. For materialized spirits, the Physical attributes apply to its materialized form. For spirits of possession traditions, the spirit’s Physical attributes are added to the attributes of the vessel possessed by the spirit. |
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May 29 2010, 08:54 PM
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#31
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 |
QUOTE (Matsci @ May 29 2010, 11:52 AM) A free spirit’s Force rating is the natural maximum for all Physical and Mental attributes, as well as its Edge attribute— so the player must raise Force if he wishes to raise the remaining attributes. Well. You see, there's the thing. I -did- raise the force. Through initiation, and buying more Force. |
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May 29 2010, 09:08 PM
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#32
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 29 2010, 02:54 PM) Well. You see, there's the thing. I -did- raise the force. Through initiation, and buying more Force. I think that you and Matsci are saying the same thing there... of course I could be wrong... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) I still think that you need to raise the attributes independantly of Force, but the wording is a little off... Keep the Faith |
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May 29 2010, 09:22 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 298 Joined: 15-March 09 Member No.: 16,974 |
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 29 2010, 09:05 AM) See this is what I though too... but if you look further in the Quote you provided, Force is the Minimum and Maximum of the Spirits stats... YES, the stats all start at 2, at character creation as you indicated, but if you raise Force, then the Minimum is now 3, then 4, then... you get the point... I personally prefer that the Stats are independant of Force, as this will make a more balanced character... my Free Spirit originally had all stats of 2, with an Edge of 5 and a Force of 6... and Almost nothing else (3 skills and 3 spells)... but if you take the comment that "Force is the minumum and maximum cap for materialized Stats, well then, the Force sets the stats... Correction; This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums and maximums for all attributes. Determines =/= equals. A later line states that the maximums are equal to force, but nowhere does it say that the minimums are equal to force. An thought just occured to me; Matsci, do you have the new RC? |
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May 29 2010, 09:25 PM
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#34
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ May 29 2010, 03:22 PM) Correction; This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums and maximums for all attributes. Determines =/= equals. A later line states that the maximums are equal to force, but nowhere does it say that the minimums are equal to force. An thought just occured to me; Matsci, do you have the new RC? Which is again my original thought on the matter, but the argument can be made that determination does indeed equal, as evidenced by Udoshi... not that it matters though, I will never play a Free Spirit in our game, I am sure... oh well... Keep the Faith |
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May 30 2010, 02:21 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 664 Joined: 3-February 08 Member No.: 15,626 |
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ May 29 2010, 01:22 PM) Correction; This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums and maximums for all attributes. Determines =/= equals. A later line states that the maximums are equal to force, but nowhere does it say that the minimums are equal to force. An thought just occured to me; Matsci, do you have the new RC? Just the most current PDF. |
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May 30 2010, 04:10 AM
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#36
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 |
Determines =/= equal. But ignoring a minimum is just like looking at the metatype table, and ignoring that elves have a minimum charisma of 3, or trolls have a minimum body/strength. Or that Metagenetic improvement can raise the minimum on a stat.
Its not broken just because spirits do it across the board. Regular spirits already use Force for everything. Why randomly gimp a spirit now that its free? |
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May 30 2010, 02:36 PM
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#37
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 29 2010, 09:10 PM) Determines =/= equal. But ignoring a minimum is just like looking at the metatype table, and ignoring that elves have a minimum charisma of 3, or trolls have a minimum body/strength. Or that Metagenetic improvement can raise the minimum on a stat. Its not broken just because spirits do it across the board. Regular spirits already use Force for everything. Why randomly gimp a spirit now that its free? Because that Free Spirit is a Player Character? Look at regular Free Spirits, and then look at the rules for Player Character Free Spirits... they are not the same. Why? Because balance should be a concern between the Free Spirit Option and other Options... Spirits cannot die except uder some very special circumstances... so you have to have balance in some other arens... the writers chose to have that balance in the Stats themselves... there is nothing stopping someone from creating a spirit with a Force of 6 (that is where mine ended up anyways) but since you are forced to buy up stats from 2, you do not have 6's across teh board (Mine had stats of 2 and an Edge of 5). Spirit powers are based upon their Edge attribute. Now, those Physical Stats only matter in Physical space, as a Spirits attributes in the Astral are equal to Force... I have no problems with that method of creating a Free Spirit... of course, because it has also been mentioned (ehough it may be interpretation only), I can accept Physical Stats = Force as well, I just think that if that is the case, then the Spirits are fairly more powerful at character creation than may have been intended... Keep the Faith |
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May 30 2010, 02:45 PM
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#38
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
A Spirit is a Spirit.
A force 6 Spirit is a Force 6 Spirit. Isn't it SUPPOSED to be powerfull? O.o |
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May 30 2010, 02:53 PM
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#39
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 30 2010, 07:45 AM) A Spirit is a Spirit. A force 6 Spirit is a Force 6 Spirit. Isn't it SUPPOSED to be powerfull? O.o I can agree with you on that, which is why I have waffled a bit on the "rules" for the Free Spirit... I do not know the intent at this point, and if you are raising your stats for free with an increase in Force, well then I don't think that the Free Spirit is costed right at that point... I just don't know anymore... For my games it is truly a moot point anyway unless the table releases the ability to play a Free Spirit... they are currently not allowed at our table... Tne one that I had made was eminently playable in my opinion, even with Stats at 2, but no worries... Keep the Faith |
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May 30 2010, 06:45 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 298 Joined: 15-March 09 Member No.: 16,974 |
QUOTE (Matsci @ May 29 2010, 08:21 PM) Just the most current PDF. So that means that the line "This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums and maximums for all attributes." from the first print RC and older PDFs is a typo/error, and the spirit character's force has no influence on their attribute minimums. QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 30 2010, 08:36 AM) Now, those Physical Stats only matter in Physical space, as a Spirits attributes in the Astral are equal to Force... Um, no. A spirits purchased attributes apply both in physical and astral space, otherwise a spirit could just buy up initiation, Force and Edge, stay astral all the time and be hugely overpowered. |
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May 30 2010, 07:32 PM
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#41
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ May 30 2010, 11:45 AM) So that means that the line "This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums and maximums for all attributes." from the first print RC and older PDFs is a typo/error, and the spirit character's force has no influence on their attribute minimums. Um, no. A spirits purchased attributes apply both in physical and astral space, otherwise a spirit could just buy up initiation, Force and Edge, stay astral all the time and be hugely overpowered. A free spirit is not all that useful parked in Astral Space... Just Sayin' Keep the Faith |
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