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GM Lich
Getting back into SR. Me and a friend of mine had a fun thought. This was our conversation if its too long or just stupid scroll down to the tl;dr. Keep in mind we brainstormed this idea. For the sake of showing you how this dumb idea formed I copy and pasted our conversation. Keep in mind this took place late at nite. It probaly sounds increbilely stupid, but we wondering if this was possible. My friends name has been changed for the sake of privacy.
me:we need some kind of awesome combo
me:that uses two chars
Anon:Sr
Anon:uhhhh a dwarf dwarf and a troll with crossbow?
me:AND THE DWARF IS THE AMMO. BRILLANT
Anon:yes
me:Who is a mage
me:A crazed mage
me:And has touch of death or something
me:No but we need something seriously awesome
me:like a human with high luck buffed by an Awesome Face mage
me:idk
Anon:dwarf in Heavy milspec PAUNCH!!!
Anon:OR LAAUNCHH!!!!!
me:Give him arcane arrester
me:and some really good armor or somethin g
Anon:SUPER DWARF NO MAGIC LAUNCH
me:Ooooh
me:Dorf Adept
Anon:LOLZ
me:Now you can do falacon punch
me:Wats the ablity called, causes explosions on contact
Anon:YEZZZZ
me:its adept
Anon:UUUHHHHH
Anon:HMM
Anon:LETZ ZE
Anon:UMMM COULD IT BE A ALCHEMIC PROCCESS
Anon:LULZ
Sent at 9:26 PM on Wednesday
me:K, does the adept have some kinda of invul bullets. Seems to be the biggest weakness
me:anti bullets
me:some way to counter guns
Anon:HHHMMMMM HE COULD HAVE A MAGE CAST ARMOR ON HAS ARMOR
me:True, anything else you can dig up? Also collation/throwing rules improvised weapons. LOOK DEM UP
Anon:OOOHHH GERE WE GO
Anon:MISSILE PARRY
Anon:MYSTIC ARMOR
Anon:KILLING HANDS
Anon:CRITICAL STRIKE
me::D
Anon:ATTRIBUTE BOOST
Anon:IMPROVED ATTRIBUTE; STRENGTH
Anon:IMPROVED ABILITY
Anon:GREAT LEAP
Anon:IMPROVED PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTE
Anon:LULZ
Anon:TAKES BOW
Anon:THANKYOU THANK YOU
Anon:!!!LOL
me:Maybe we can make a dorf capult
Anon:THATS WAT I WAZ THINKIN
me:"We need infliatrate, bring in the DORF CAPAPULT"
Anon:SIR DO YOU THINK THATS WISE?
me:Its the only option we get cap't
Anon:WE COULD KILL LITTLE CHILDREN AND CIVILIANS SIR
Anon:*SNIFF SNIFF*
me:Its for the greater good
Anon:I WAZ ORPAHANED LONG AGO *GOES RAMBLING ON IN !SPARTA MADNESS! ABOUT CHILDHOOD*
Anon:LULZ
me:Anon, look up improvised throwing weapons
Anon:K
me:sounds like the best rule to look for on what we are doing
Anon:
Metahuman Body ;(Unarmed Combat) 1 (BOD/2)S +2
Anon:REACH; DMG; AP
Anon:IN THAT ORDER
me:For throwing?
me:wait a fucking moment, SR covers dorf throwing in the book?
Anon:HMM DOS'NT SAY I THINK ITS JUST MELEE WEAPON
Anon:IT MIGHT BE GM'S DECISION
me:oh shi-
Anon:WA
Anon:?!
Anon:YOU ENCOUNTERED A WILD oh shi-
me:did you look up improvise weapon?
Anon:ya
me:hmm
me:Throwing improvise?
Anon:uh its probly in arsenal
me:Try all splatbooks. I dont got them on me
me:probaly
me:knowing that
Anon:there is a throwing weapons table but i can't find it
me:does it do weight?
Anon:success!!!!
me::D
me:give me some numbers when ready
Anon:RANGE: (STR-BOD/2)
Anon:DMG:(BOD)S
Anon:STUN
Anon:THATS IT
Anon:LOLZ
me:repeat
me:I turned off smilies
me: :D
Anon:LOLZ NOW STOP!!!!!!!
me:DMG+BOD STUN?
Anon:NO BOD IS DMG
me:wheres the damage from?
me:Ok
me:So you need a really good body
me:probaly mac
me:*max
Anon:THE ITEMS BOD=DMG
me:how does range work?
me:also wat we should do http://media.ugoto.com/pictures/dwarf_catapult-889.jpg
Anon:OPERATORS STR-ITEMS BOD
Anon:STR-BOD
Anon:DIVIDED BY 2
me:minus?
Anon:YEP
me:Lets see max str for a troll, max bod for a dwarf... Whats the range cap't
Anon:MAX STR IS 15
Anon:MAX BOD IS 7
Anon:SO 12 METERS
me:hmmm
Anon:not good enough
me:yep
Anon:troll adept
me:oooh
Anon:improved phys atribute
Anon:max
me:GO TEAM ADEPT
Anon:MAX OWNAGE
me:Hmm wat does that put it nao?
Anon:uh the im phys att is a dice roll of magic + rating
Anon:so max magic?
Anon:and as high of a rating you can get it?
me:doesnt troll get better starting str then that?
Anon:no 15 max
Anon:or 17+ if you throw in a cyber arm'
Anon:or adept
Anon:lolz
me:we need to post this on dumpshock and ask them
me:I'll use my account
Anon:ahhh gotto go ill IM you tomorrow; dumpshok yes
me:k
tl;dr: We want to make a metahuman catapult and we need to figure out the best way too
It may seem quite dumb the whole conversation but its comedy gold. Could SR support these characters as good options combat wise. I know this sounds increbililely cheesey, but this is most for fun u'know. Also if you guys feel like it share your ridicolous characters you know that your GM would not approve. Thanks DP.
Makki
Fomori-Ghoul: 10 base str, 22 Str augmented maximum
The Jopp
Power Throw Rating 4
Restricted Gear: Syprathyroid Gland
Restricted Gear: Muscle Augmentation
Second Hand: Syprathyroid Gland
Second Hand: Muscle Augmentation 4
Changeling II - Metagenic Improvement Strength
Max Strength 16

Essence 4,20
Magic 6 (4)

Troll Thrower adds +8 STR for calculating throwing range and damage.

Effective Throwing Strength at Chargen 24
Add Missile Mastery and a throwign dagger does 14 stun or physical. Random object does 12 Stun or Physical.

Will be a bit hard to squeeze in point wise, add In Debt at 30 to chosen organization (for the ware).
Neraph
Already done.
Oehler the Black
QUOTE (Neraph @ May 27 2010, 01:54 AM) *

rotfl.gif
It's in The Other Game too.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Makki @ May 27 2010, 08:47 AM) *
Fomori-Ghoul: 10 base str, 22 Str augmented maximum

And now show me ware than can boost strength by 12 points.
Makki
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 27 2010, 10:57 AM) *
And now show me ware than can boost strength by 12 points.


i was wrong, Fomori has Body enhancement. but the cyclops ghoul has 9 base str.

+5 with 4*10+25 BP
+4 muscle augmentation
+1 Syprathyroid Gland
+2 Kamikaze/Nitro
=20 Str

or

cyclops ghoul 9 base str
+4 with 4*10 BP
+4 muscle augmentation
genetic enhancement Str
Exceptional attribute Str
+6 K-10
=23 Str
The Jopp
Ok, letís just look at options and ware here to se what insane contraption of a troll we can get.

1: Troll (STR 8 / BOD 10 / AGI 5)
2: Restricted Gear: Cyberlimbs
3: Restricted Gear: Cyberlimb Enhancements
4: Second Hand Cyberware
5: Max STR

Second Hand Gear
SyntheticCyberlimb Second hand: Availability: 3 (All base stats of 3)
Synthetic Cybertorso (no need for any add-ons here)
Customized Limb (STR) +12: Availability -1 (11)
Customized Limb (AGI): +2 Availability -1 (1)
Customized Limb (BOD): +6 Availability -1 (5)
3+11+1+5= 20 (Within Availability of 20)

Cyberlimb Enhancement: STR+7 = Availability X3-1 =21-1 (Equals Availability of 20)
The troll is an adept with missile mastery, Power Throw 2 (+4 STR) and Improved Reflexes 1.

Summary
Cyberlimb Strength: 22
Power Throw: +4

Final Strength of 26
Damage with a throwing knife: 15 physical or stun.
Throw a rock with a power of 13P or 13S.
And then we redline the bloody limb...kills the thrower though...
Stahlseele
You mean, something like this?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3135/228272...e97bda604_o.jpg
The Jopp
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 27 2010, 12:28 PM) *


Very much so.

After a bit of tweaking I got it to 16P with a throwing knife and 14P with a brick.

Missile mastery is highly useful as one can choose to do Stun damage with a throwing knife or brick.

If he decideds to suicide we redline the arm to a damage code of 50P with basically anything and 52P with a throwing knife.

Then he dies in the next combat turn as he must resist 44S with a body of 10...
Mšx
QUOTE (The Jopp @ May 27 2010, 01:46 PM) *
Very much so.

After a bit of tweaking I got it to 16P with a throwing knife and 14P with a brick.

Trowing a tomahawk would give you 17P.
darthmord
QUOTE (The Jopp @ May 27 2010, 07:46 AM) *
Very much so.

After a bit of tweaking I got it to 16P with a throwing knife and 14P with a brick.

Missile mastery is highly useful as one can choose to do Stun damage with a throwing knife or brick.

If he decideds to suicide we redline the arm to a damage code of 50P with basically anything and 52P with a throwing knife.

Then he dies in the next combat turn as he must resist 44S with a body of 10...


Burn a point of Edge for a critical success (+4 Hits beyond what you need to achieve success).

Redline & Live. cyber.gif
Stahlseele
Do the same with the actual throwing.
If it's 4 successes more than you need, then it's another +4 damage too
Udoshi
Hm. Okay. BEHOLD! FLINGMASTER


Karmagen, anniversary costs, German karmagen.
Free Spirit: 250
Initiatory Group: 5
Initiation grade 6: 101, at a 20% discount, round up, each grade calculated seperately: (normally 132 (13+16+19+22+25+28))
Force 12: 375 (15+20+25+30+35+40+45+50+55+60, spirits start at force 2)
5: Spell, Levitate.
Spellcasting 2 (Manipulation +2): 10
Ritual Spellcasting 1
Spirit power: Movement(For using on the people you're Levitating)
Initiation metamagic: sympathetic linking
= 750
So...we're force 12, which means magic 12 and edge 12, and other attributes at 12. We may overcast at force 24(double magic), and roll 24 dice to resist drain(willpower+attribute, both of which are 12.) When using Movement, the subject goes twelve times as fast, unless it has a body of 13-24, in which case it goes six times as fast.

I am going to buy hits, because I do not want to do probability math. Yes, a better result could be achieved by going Force 11, and maxing out Spellcasting, but I like whole numbers.
on Magic(12) + Spellcasting(2), with Levitate(+2 manipulation), we get 16 dice, or 4 hits.
Rolling willpower(12)+othermentalattribute(12) for Drain Resistance, we get 24 dice, or 6 hits, meaning we can pretty reliably soak 6 drain.
Levitate has a Drain Code of Force/2+1, meaning a force Ten Levitate has a drain of 6.
The maximum weight we may levitate is 200 kilograms(440 pounds) per Spellcasting Hit(4 hits, so thats nearly a metric ton at 800KG/1763.69LB)
We may Levitate things along at Force(10) x Spellcasting Hits(4) per turn, or 40 meters per Turn(which is 3 seconds)
We use Movement on the person being Levitated increasing their speed by Force, or twelve times forty meters, for 480 meters every 3 seconds. That's 160 meters per second.
For comparison, Mach 1 is 340 meters per second at sea level. This spirit may casually levitate things at half the speed of sound.
So, to super-sonic fling someone, all we need to do is either double the Force(20), double the spellcasting hits(8-9), or somewhere in the middle


Additionally: Casting a Ritual Spell(4a 185:): Ritual spellcasting is carried out in the same manner as spellcasting except that the ritual requires twelve hours, minus the leader's Magic(minimum one hour). With a Sympathetic Link, we don't need a Spotter, and a Recently Handled Object is -6 to the test(SM29). With the ability to materialize anywhere, grab someone's coffeecup, and ritual it up for an hour, this spirit can potentially fling not just dwarves, but any dwarf on the earth around, almost at will. Or light cars, for that matter.

Dare you guys to do better.
Stahlseele
i still hate that magic can do anything better ._.
Dr.Rockso
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 27 2010, 12:54 PM) *
i still hate that magic can do anything better ._.

Such is the nature of magic, i suppose. But we still have FABIII devil.gif
Daddy's Little Ninja
Reading the original post, they need to have string in 6 inch lengths that are guarenteed to kill house hold pests.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 27 2010, 06:43 PM) *
Hm. Okay. BEHOLD! FLINGMASTER

Dare you guys to do better.


In my defense I would say that your character is not exactly the run of the mill starting character - mine is ^__^.

He's also a combat biker with killing hands and martial arts in boxing with maneuver: Throwing

Close combat STR of 22 and does 11P with killing hands.

He's only got AGI 5 and Boxing of 4 but rolls about 15D6 when on full defense and if he wins he would make a STR+Unarmed VS STR+Unarmed.

Here's a thought, would the adept power Power Throw apply to that test as he actually attempts to throw the target - and the ability adds STR to distance and power of throw.
Stahlseele
But of course. You could even apply it to thrown grenades . .
Knock someone out with the grenade and have him killed by the explosion at ground zero afterwards ^^
The Jopp
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 27 2010, 09:21 PM) *
But of course. You could even apply it to thrown grenades . .
Knock someone out with the grenade and have him killed by the explosion at ground zero afterwards ^^


Of course - but I prefer to insult my target by killing them with a tomato or a fistful of cabbage.
Udoshi
QUOTE (The Jopp @ May 27 2010, 12:30 PM) *
In my defense I would say that your character is not exactly the run of the mill starting character - mine is ^__^.


Granted, and you're absolutely right about that. My character totally wouldn't fly in a regular game.

.... well, actually it -would- fly.

... but It'd just be so useless at everything else, you're better off rolling a different character.
Stahlseele
Well, okay, one COULD argue that since the thrown metahuman does damage based on the thrown body instead of the throwers strength, power throw won't help . .
but then i counter with: "IT'S MAGIC!"
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (The Jopp @ May 27 2010, 12:51 AM) *
Power Throw Rating 4
Restricted Gear: Syprathyroid Gland
Restricted Gear: Muscle Augmentation
Second Hand: Syprathyroid Gland
Second Hand: Muscle Augmentation 4
Changeling II - Metagenic Improvement Strength
Max Strength 16

Essence 4,20
Magic 6 (4)

Troll Thrower adds +8 STR for calculating throwing range and damage.

Effective Throwing Strength at Chargen 24
Add Missile Mastery and a throwign dagger does 14 stun or physical. Random object does 12 Stun or Physical.

Will be a bit hard to squeeze in point wise, add In Debt at 30 to chosen organization (for the ware).


Power Throw maxes out at 3 Levels...

Keep the Faith
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 27 2010, 11:43 AM) *
Hm. Okay. BEHOLD! FLINGMASTER


Karmagen, anniversary costs, German karmagen.
Free Spirit: 250
Initiatory Group: 5
Initiation grade 6: 101, at a 20% discount, round up, each grade calculated seperately: (normally 132 (13+16+19+22+25+28))
Force 12: 375 (15+20+25+30+35+40+45+50+55+60, spirits start at force 2)
5: Spell, Levitate.
Spellcasting 2 (Manipulation +2): 10
Ritual Spellcasting 1
Spirit power: Movement(For using on the people you're Levitating)
Initiation metamagic: sympathetic linking
= 750
So...we're force 12, which means magic 12 and edge 12, and other attributes at 12. We may overcast at force 24(double magic), and roll 24 dice to resist drain(willpower+attribute, both of which are 12.) When using Movement, the subject goes twelve times as fast, unless it has a body of 13-24, in which case it goes six times as fast.

I am going to buy hits, because I do not want to do probability math. Yes, a better result could be achieved by going Force 11, and maxing out Spellcasting, but I like whole numbers.
on Magic(12) + Spellcasting(2), with Levitate(+2 manipulation), we get 16 dice, or 4 hits.
Rolling willpower(12)+othermentalattribute(12) for Drain Resistance, we get 24 dice, or 6 hits, meaning we can pretty reliably soak 6 drain.
Levitate has a Drain Code of Force/2+1, meaning a force Ten Levitate has a drain of 6.
The maximum weight we may levitate is 200 kilograms(440 pounds) per Spellcasting Hit(4 hits, so thats nearly a metric ton at 800KG/1763.69LB)
We may Levitate things along at Force(10) x Spellcasting Hits(4) per turn, or 40 meters per Turn(which is 3 seconds)
We use Movement on the person being Levitated increasing their speed by Force, or twelve times forty meters, for 480 meters every 3 seconds. That's 160 meters per second.
For comparison, Mach 1 is 340 meters per second at sea level. This spirit may casually levitate things at half the speed of sound.
So, to super-sonic fling someone, all we need to do is either double the Force(20), double the spellcasting hits(8-9), or somewhere in the middle


Additionally: Casting a Ritual Spell(4a 185:): Ritual spellcasting is carried out in the same manner as spellcasting except that the ritual requires twelve hours, minus the leader's Magic(minimum one hour). With a Sympathetic Link, we don't need a Spotter, and a Recently Handled Object is -6 to the test(SM29). With the ability to materialize anywhere, grab someone's coffeecup, and ritual it up for an hour, this spirit can potentially fling not just dwarves, but any dwarf on the earth around, almost at will. Or light cars, for that matter.

Dare you guys to do better.



Minor Nitpick... when your Free Spirit is Materialized, his stats are at 2, not 12, as he has not put any points into his Stats (Which all start at 2)... A Free Spirit MUST raise his stats independantly of his Force...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith
Udoshi
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 27 2010, 06:50 PM) *
Minor Nitpick... when your Free Spirit is Materialized, his stats are at 2, not 12, as he has not put any points into his Stats (Which all start at 2)... A Free Spirit MUST raise his stats independantly of his Force...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith


No, Force is used as the attribute for all Spirits. (Regular Spirits get their F+X statblocks on the astral)
Free spirits are no different. Their Force rating is both the minimum and maximum and for all their attributes, including Magic and Edge. His stats are not 'at 2' they 'start at 2'... and get increased along with force.
Unlike Regular Spirits, there is only the force.(there is no death, either)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 27 2010, 08:11 PM) *
No, Force is used as the attribute for all Spirits. (Regular Spirits get their F+X statblocks on the astral)
Free spirits are no different. Their Force rating is both the minimum and maximum and for all their attributes, including Magic and Edge. His stats are not 'at 2' they 'start at 2'... and get increased along with force.
Unlike Regular Spirits, there is only the force.(there is no death, either)


Okay, after re-reading the relevant sections, and contemplating for a bit, I can agree with that...
Spirits never died anyway (unless Spell Bound), they are merely disrupted...

Keep the Faith
The Jopp
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 28 2010, 01:47 AM) *
Power Throw maxes out at 3 Levels...

Keep the Faith


I wondered about that and couldn't find anything about it. Is it in SR4A or an errata?

Although, level 3 is a bit low, I'd rather keep it to +1STR/0,25
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE
Missile Mastery
Cost: 1
Even the most harmless of items such as pens, coins, and
playing cards become deadly weapons in the hands of an adept
with Missile Mastery. Such is the character’s knack for throwing
weapons that he adds +1 to the Damage Value of any non-
explosivethrown weapon he uses. Improvised thrown weapons
(such as playing cards, glasses or pens) have a Damage Value
of (STR ų 2)P (round up) in the adept’s hands. At the adept’s
discretion, thrown weapons that normally inflict stun damage
may instead inflict physical.


Though he didn't use it, it is a possibility.

QUOTE
Power Throw
Cost: .25 per level
Each level of this power adds 2 to the character’s effective
Strength solely for the purpose of determining range and
damage of thrown weapons and objects.


Udoshi only added 1 point per level when he should have been adding two, and there is no listing of a limitation anywhere.

QUOTE
Free Spirit Attributes
Free spirits have a Force special attribute that starts with a rating
of 2. This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums
and maximums for all attributes. It also acts as the spirit’s Magic
attribute. Force increases can be purchased at character generation
for the same price as any attribute. The natural maximum for the
Force attribute is 6, although this can be later increased through
initiation. A free spirit’s Force rating is the natural maximum for
all Physical and Mental attributes, as well as its Edge attribute—
so the player must raise Force if he wishes to raise the remaining
attributes. In addition, free spirits have the same Physical, Mental,
and Edge attributes as metahuman characters, which all start at
2 (their starting Force) at the start of character generation.


A free spirits attributes all start at 2 and have to be purchased up from there, however the physical attributes are only used while materialized.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ May 28 2010, 05:46 AM) *
Udoshi only added 1 point per level when he should have been adding two, and there is no listing of a limitation anywhere.


See the Street Magic Erratta... it is in there

QUOTE
A free spirits attributes all start at 2 and have to be purchased up from there, however the physical attributes are only used while materialized.


See this is what I though too... but if you look further in the Quote you provided, Force is the Minimum and Maximum of the Spirits stats... YES, the stats all start at 2, at character creation as you indicated, but if you raise Force, then the Minimum is now 3, then 4, then... you get the point... I personally prefer that the Stats are independant of Force, as this will make a more balanced character... my Free Spirit originally had all stats of 2, with an Edge of 5 and a Force of 6... and Almost nothing else (3 skills and 3 spells)... but if you take the comment that "Force is the minumum and maximum cap for materialized Stats, well then, the Force sets the stats...

Keep the Faith
Matsci
QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 27 2010, 06:11 PM) *
No, Force is used as the attribute for all Spirits. (Regular Spirits get their F+X statblocks on the astral)
Free spirits are no different. Their Force rating is both the minimum and maximum and for all their attributes, including Magic and Edge. His stats are not 'at 2' they 'start at 2'... and get increased along with force.
Unlike Regular Spirits, there is only the force.(there is no death, either)

???
My Runners Companion says differently

Free Spirit Attributes
Free spirits have a Force special attribute that starts with a rating of 2. This attribute determines a free spiritís natural maximums for all attributes. It also acts as the spiritís Magic attribute. Force increases can be purchased at character generation for the same price as any attribute. The natural maximum for the Force attribute is 6, although this can be later increased through initiation. A free spiritís Force rating is the natural maximum for all Physical and Mental attributes, as well as its Edge attributeó so the player must raise Force if he wishes to raise the remaining attributes. In addition, free spirits have the same Physical, Mental, and Edge attributes as metahuman characters, which all start at 2 (their starting Force) at the start of character generation. For materialized spirits, the Physical attributes apply to its materialized form. For spirits of possession traditions, the spiritís Physical attributes are added to the attributes of the vessel possessed by the spirit.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Matsci @ May 29 2010, 11:52 AM) *
A free spiritís Force rating is the natural maximum for all Physical and Mental attributes, as well as its Edge attributeó so the player must raise Force if he wishes to raise the remaining attributes.


Well. You see, there's the thing.

I -did- raise the force. Through initiation, and buying more Force.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 29 2010, 02:54 PM) *
Well. You see, there's the thing.

I -did- raise the force. Through initiation, and buying more Force.


I think that you and Matsci are saying the same thing there... of course I could be wrong... wobble.gif
I still think that you need to raise the attributes independantly of Force, but the wording is a little off...

Keep the Faith
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 29 2010, 09:05 AM) *
See this is what I though too... but if you look further in the Quote you provided, Force is the Minimum and Maximum of the Spirits stats... YES, the stats all start at 2, at character creation as you indicated, but if you raise Force, then the Minimum is now 3, then 4, then... you get the point... I personally prefer that the Stats are independant of Force, as this will make a more balanced character... my Free Spirit originally had all stats of 2, with an Edge of 5 and a Force of 6... and Almost nothing else (3 skills and 3 spells)... but if you take the comment that "Force is the minumum and maximum cap for materialized Stats, well then, the Force sets the stats...


Correction;
This attribute determines a free spiritís natural minimums and maximums for all attributes.

Determines =/= equals. A later line states that the maximums are equal to force, but nowhere does it say that the minimums are equal to force.

An thought just occured to me; Matsci, do you have the new RC?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ May 29 2010, 03:22 PM) *
Correction;
This attribute determines a free spiritís natural minimums and maximums for all attributes.

Determines =/= equals. A later line states that the maximums are equal to force, but nowhere does it say that the minimums are equal to force.

An thought just occured to me; Matsci, do you have the new RC?


Which is again my original thought on the matter, but the argument can be made that determination does indeed equal, as evidenced by Udoshi... not that it matters though, I will never play a Free Spirit in our game, I am sure... oh well...

Keep the Faith
Matsci
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ May 29 2010, 01:22 PM) *
Correction;
This attribute determines a free spiritís natural minimums and maximums for all attributes.

Determines =/= equals. A later line states that the maximums are equal to force, but nowhere does it say that the minimums are equal to force.

An thought just occured to me; Matsci, do you have the new RC?


Just the most current PDF.
Udoshi
Determines =/= equal. But ignoring a minimum is just like looking at the metatype table, and ignoring that elves have a minimum charisma of 3, or trolls have a minimum body/strength. Or that Metagenetic improvement can raise the minimum on a stat.

Its not broken just because spirits do it across the board. Regular spirits already use Force for everything. Why randomly gimp a spirit now that its free?

Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 29 2010, 09:10 PM) *
Determines =/= equal. But ignoring a minimum is just like looking at the metatype table, and ignoring that elves have a minimum charisma of 3, or trolls have a minimum body/strength. Or that Metagenetic improvement can raise the minimum on a stat.

Its not broken just because spirits do it across the board. Regular spirits already use Force for everything. Why randomly gimp a spirit now that its free?


Because that Free Spirit is a Player Character?

Look at regular Free Spirits, and then look at the rules for Player Character Free Spirits... they are not the same. Why? Because balance should be a concern between the Free Spirit Option and other Options... Spirits cannot die except uder some very special circumstances... so you have to have balance in some other arens... the writers chose to have that balance in the Stats themselves... there is nothing stopping someone from creating a spirit with a Force of 6 (that is where mine ended up anyways) but since you are forced to buy up stats from 2, you do not have 6's across teh board (Mine had stats of 2 and an Edge of 5). Spirit powers are based upon their Edge attribute. Now, those Physical Stats only matter in Physical space, as a Spirits attributes in the Astral are equal to Force...

I have no problems with that method of creating a Free Spirit... of course, because it has also been mentioned (ehough it may be interpretation only), I can accept Physical Stats = Force as well, I just think that if that is the case, then the Spirits are fairly more powerful at character creation than may have been intended...

Keep the Faith
Stahlseele
A Spirit is a Spirit.
A force 6 Spirit is a Force 6 Spirit.
Isn't it SUPPOSED to be powerfull? O.o
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 30 2010, 07:45 AM) *
A Spirit is a Spirit.
A force 6 Spirit is a Force 6 Spirit.
Isn't it SUPPOSED to be powerfull? O.o


I can agree with you on that, which is why I have waffled a bit on the "rules" for the Free Spirit... I do not know the intent at this point, and if you are raising your stats for free with an increase in Force, well then I don't think that the Free Spirit is costed right at that point...

I just don't know anymore...

For my games it is truly a moot point anyway unless the table releases the ability to play a Free Spirit... they are currently not allowed at our table... Tne one that I had made was eminently playable in my opinion, even with Stats at 2, but no worries...

Keep the Faith
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (Matsci @ May 29 2010, 08:21 PM) *
Just the most current PDF.


So that means that the line "This attribute determines a free spiritís natural minimums and maximums for all attributes." from the first print RC and older PDFs is a typo/error, and the spirit character's force has no influence on their attribute minimums.

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 30 2010, 08:36 AM) *
Now, those Physical Stats only matter in Physical space, as a Spirits attributes in the Astral are equal to Force...


Um, no. A spirits purchased attributes apply both in physical and astral space, otherwise a spirit could just buy up initiation, Force and Edge, stay astral all the time and be hugely overpowered.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ May 30 2010, 11:45 AM) *
So that means that the line "This attribute determines a free spiritís natural minimums and maximums for all attributes." from the first print RC and older PDFs is a typo/error, and the spirit character's force has no influence on their attribute minimums.



Um, no. A spirits purchased attributes apply both in physical and astral space, otherwise a spirit could just buy up initiation, Force and Edge, stay astral all the time and be hugely overpowered.


A free spirit is not all that useful parked in Astral Space...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith
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